Transgenders in the Miss Universe Pageant

[Geo Stelar]

(lmao I don't even know how I'm gonna start this xD )

Well, I am 15 years old, so I don't usually care about the '18 and above' kind of shows like beauty pageants, but one large issue ensued, and since not one topic about it is posted yet, so here goes.

As we all know the Miss universe pageant is one of the most publicised beauty contests in the world (along with its Rivals Miss Earth and Miss World.)

It's just that at the recent 2012 Miss Universe, a transgender contestant joined the beauty contest, and was disqualified once the truth about his true (truthfully, yeah) sexuality was revealed. Which was, of course, the obvious thing to do, since only women join true beauty pageants.

However, on April 10, 2012, the organizers passed a new rule: 'Transgenders will now be allowed to join'

For me it's a 'What the HECK?' rule.

Miss Universe is a beauty pageant meant for women who possess great talent, intelligence, and, of course, beauty. But to allow illegitimate women to join? I know, some gays have brains and some can be beautiful as well, but they're just not fit to be Miss Universe, or even join, simply because they are not real women and therefore not a true 'Miss' Universe.

And their reason for this rule? Here: men who have had a sex change deserved the same treatment as any other women.

LMAO

Here are the links:

http://www.channelne...1194313/1/.html

http://www.styleite....-miss-universe/

http://today.msnbc.m...n/#.T41yG7caM7o

So, what do you guys think?

[Redeemer]

Miss World is a beauty pageant meant for women who possess great talent, intelligence, and, of course, beauty.

for women who possess great talent, intelligence

intelligence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtkX3OyPF4Q

But in all seriousness... I understand that men who have gender changes should be treated the way they want to be treated. I have friends who desire to be the opposite sex, both male and female friends actually. And I'll treat them as they want me to treat them, I have no issues with that and I respect their wishes.

But Miss World has always, traditionally, been about women... and if you're born a man, the judges aren't going to see you the same way, are they? It's sad but true.

[Arashikage]

I think it's one of those issues where, sure the rule probably won't be changed, but the judges aren't gonna be fair. I know one or two people who are transsexual and desire to be the opposite sex, but I doubt any of them would join a pageant. That aside, I don't exactly know how to respond, on the one hand, fairness, those who want to become women and do what they do can, but on the other hand, there probably won't be much hope in them winning, and it could very well make people uncomfortable in this world we live in.

[Zzz]

Zzz

[Fluxy]

*Starts to read*

(lmao I don't even know how I'm gonna start this xD )

Well, I am 15 years old, so I don't usually care about the '18 and above' kind of shows like beauty pageants, but one large issue ensued, and since not one topic about it is posted yet, so here goes.

As we all know the Miss world pageant is one of the most publicised beauty contests in the world (along with its Rivals Miss Earth and Miss Universe) and it is also the oldest surviving major international beauty pageant. (Yeah those last 31 words excluding this parenthesized ones are a direct copy-paste from Wikipedia )

It's just that at the recent 2012 Miss World, a transgender contestant joined the beauty contest, and was disqualified once the truth about his true (truthfully, yeah) sexuality was revealed. Which was, of course, the obvious thing to do, since only women join true beauty pageants.

Okay, so this guy sums it up, let's read the rest of the post. Maybe, perhaps, he has some, you know, intelligent way of putting his thoughts on this matter that are not horribly put, or show signs of him being not so intelligent. Cause, you know as he said, He's fifth-teen.

For me it's a 'What the HECK?' rule.

Miss World is a beauty pageant meant for women who possess great talent, intelligence, and, of course, beauty. But to allow illegitimate women to join? I know, some gays have brains and some can be beautiful as well, but they're just not fit to be Miss World, or even join, simply because they are not real women and therefore not a true 'Miss' World.

And their reason for this rule? Here: men who have had a sex change deserved the same treatment as any other women.

LMAO

So, what do you guys think?

Ah! He surely is smart and proven his point that these fakies in the nakies are not true mistresses, and therefore have no business being there! They are only fake women who used to be gay men!

*Ends sarcasm*

*Ahem*

Alllllright. Where to begin. I'll start with giving how you analyzed this was rather... Mature of you to say the least. How you told the situation was good. Now the other half, well, let's just say you kinda fell off the horse there.

"Some gays have brains and some can be beautiful as well"... I'm going to set aside the right to smack you on the head right here and now before I get into the main point. A lot of -HUMANS- don't have much wisdom or intelligence when it comes to making decisions in life; Right now, you've proven to be one of those -HUMANS-.

And ha, let's see here. Main point attended. It apparently hasn't occurred to you that not everyone is the same. Some are clinically diagnosed with issues that affect how they think and feel, some have life affects that mentally change how they act towards certain things. I'm going to go on assuming you understand this right now. Because you know, some people are legit not happy or comfortable in their own skin. Body and sex, to be precise. They feel their Gender, -not- their sexuality, is not represented at all by how they are and all they do is not only get much torment for what they feel and how they act, -and- suffer up to even constant ill amounts of effects due to the psychological factor of being a man/woman in the other's body.

TLDR; Not everyone is 'Normal'. I use this word because it is generally known and accepted for this matter; One you will understand.

Continuing on, Miss World is a Talent show. A talent show where women are allowed to enter. Transsexuals are allowed to enter, cause, funny that, they have the right sex. That should give them right enough to enter right off the bat [Please correct me if I'm wrong, for I don't have a wide expanse knowledge on the precise rulings of this competition]. Now, if the judges aren't fair to her, that's on them. Her right to enter shouldn't be based on whether or not the judges will be fair or not. She is a woman, has the sex and gender.

And well, funny that you mention that, a man who becomes a woman deserves the same treatment as a woman. Perhaps, because they are then, a -woman-.

Please. When posting in this thread, do consider the maturity level of your post. I know I am 'Inclined' as many think to be offended by it because I am bi-sexual, but really now. I know at the very least one other person who is straight who is offended by this.

--

As for my thoughts on this matter; Good for her for entering, and I hope she has a proper chance in front of the judges.

[Xortberg]

Well it's MISS world, after all....

You don't see Pokémon jumping around in Digimon.

If Transgenders want that stuff, why not have an own competition?

Maybe because that's the same sort of mindset that had blacks in their own schools where they wouldn't interact with whites? A transsexual person identifies with the opposite gender, but are born in the "wrong" one. If one has the mind of a woman, and gets their body changed to be womanly, is that person not a woman?

[Fana McCloud]

Unless beauty pageants suddenly became about a person's reproductive role I don't think being born with two X-chromosomes is what makes a person a "woman" for the purpose of such pageants, it's more about how you look and how you act. If a transgender can pull that off then they are just as much of a woman as the ones born with boobs instead of having them surgically added (although many of the so called real women have "fake" boobs too ).

[Redeemer]

Maybe because that's the same sort of mindset that had blacks in their own schools where they wouldn't interact with whites? A transsexual person identifies with the opposite gender, but are born in the "wrong" one. If one has the mind of a woman, and gets their body changed to be womanly, is that person not a woman?

I think comparing this to past racial discrimination is setting this topic up for failure. I'll be watching closely, so be careful from now on.

I really don't think this new rule is going to go down well. If a transsexual male happens to win, can you imagine the outrage it will cause? You'll see things like "He wasn't even a real woman", blah blah, you get my point. I think this is just going to push the whole gender inequality thing further. Yes, that sounds weird. Pushing both genders together in a competition SHOULDN'T create more problems, but to be honest, I think it will.

[Xortberg]

I think comparing this to past racial discrimination is setting this topic up for failure. I'll be watching closely, so be careful from now on.

It's not the same sort of discrimination as racial, but it's discrimination nonetheless. A transsexual male was born with a penis, but the mind and such of a woman. Just like being born with a certain skin color, that's not a choice they can make at birth and being discriminated against for it is very similar.

I really don't think this new rule is going to go down well. If a transsexual male happens to win, can you imagine the outrage it will cause? You'll see things like "He wasn't even a real woman", blah blah, you get my point. I think this is just going to push the whole gender inequality thing further. Yes, that sounds weird. Pushing both genders together in a competition SHOULDN'T create more problems, but to be honest, I think it will.

A lot of things have to get worse before they get better. True, this may give a lot of folks a knee-jerk reaction, but going back to the racial discrimination, so did allowing blacks to go to school with whites, and during that time it was quite arguably worse for blacks than back when they were just being segregated, but it had to be done and now, they're on a much more equal ground. Same shit might apply here.

[Redeemer]

Same shit might apply here.

I was thinking the same thing. I look forward to seeing the results years from now.

... Feminists are going to have a field day with this.

[Fluxy]

A lot of things have to get worse before they get better. True, this may give a lot of folks a knee-jerk reaction, but going back to the racial discrimination, so did allowing blacks to go to school with whites, and during that time it was quite arguably worse for blacks than back when they were just being segregated, but it had to be done and now, they're on a much more equal ground. Same shit might apply here.

Also a good point in all. The idea of stopping something just because it might cause a little soreness with everything that has happened is just silly, especially when things have a great chance to improve. Just as Xort mentioned, things got better after a while with schools being combined; And now we're here, with an African American President. The world's changed, and some will always not like those changes. No reason the world can't get over this as well with time.

[Zzz]

Zzz

[Geo Stelar]

(Yeah fluxy practically summed up the fact I stated I'm 15 before stating the post)

I'm just saying that if they allow transgenders to participate in the Miss World they lose the integrity and overall concept of the Miss World.

If transgenders are so willing then why say no to an event that allows for only them? But Miss World?

Besides, it's just my opinion.....

And no, please don't involve racism....

[Fluxy]

However, this has nothing to do with serious education but it's a "fun" competition instead with certain rules.

Would you let a man take part in this?

Don't you think it would also be discrimination if a man wanted to attend that competition while thinking he was born in the wrong body but without having the means to actually CHANGE his body? So it's like...only "transgenders"...people who can AFFORD to change their bodies are allowed to take part.

And then it's disrimination against the poor.

Let's turn this around as much as we want, because we can totally do that.

I easily see your point, and if you like, you can continue saying what else the poor can't have because, you know, they're -poor-. Discrimination against the poor. That should be used for many other cases and issues. *Ends sarcasm*

---

And well, Geo, they don't just hold 'Miss Tranny USA' for many good and great standing reasons. But that's not what this is about. They are allowing it because of the equality to it. If they physically meet the requirements, why shouldn't they be allowed in? Not even that, but they also have the gender association as well as the sex. They are entitled for equal chance to compete.

But now, I am curious. Tell me; What is the integrity and overall concept of the Miss World?

[Xortberg]

However, this has nothing to do with serious education but it's a "fun" competition instead with certain rules.

And that's the first legit point I've seen so far in this topic. I disagree that its status as a "fun" competition should give it a free pass for discrimination, but that's not something we're gonna be able to argue over really so meh.

Would you let a man take part in this?

Depends. Is the man a pure, straight-up man? No. Is the man transgendered and does he identify as a female and has he gone through extensive surgical procedures to physically be a woman? Hell yes.

Don't you think it would also be discrimination if a man wanted to attend that competition while thinking he was born in the wrong body but without having the means to actually CHANGE his body?

Miss World is a big deal. If you have a chance of being in it at all, you probably have a good chance at being able to afford gender reassignment surgery.

So it's like...only "transgenders"...people who can AFFORD to change their bodies are allowed to take part.

This is just gonna be me nitpicking definitions, but hey, at least you'll learn "Transgender" means you identify with the opposite gender. This could be through crossdressing or any other way that one can identify with the other. "Transsexual" is when one actually wants to identify physically with the opposite gender, and may or may not end up getting corrective surgery for it. But again, if you can afford to have a chance in the pageant at all, you can probably afford surgery.

And then it's disrimination against the poor.

Fluxy's already covered this little gem of a line quite nicely, so I'ma just skip over it to avoid repeating myself.

Let's turn this around as much as we want, because we can totally do that.

I'm not "turning anything around." That'd be you with the whole "now we're discriminating against the poor" angle. I was making a comparison to point out how surprisingly closed-minded your post was and also to point out that it's a really very discriminatory way to see things. You turned it around as discrimination against the poor in a feeble attempt to make my point look stupid.

Besides, it's just my opinion.....

An opinion you made the conscious decision to post in the Counter-Point. Prepare to have it challenged. That's how it works.

And no, please don't involve racism....

Nobody involved racism. I used an already existing event to draw a parallel and illustrate my point. Chill your beans.

[Fluxy]

I'm so confused.....

.....are you guys saying somebody cares about beauty pageants?????

I kid. I kid.

I don't care who is allowed to enter because Honey Boo Boo will soon hold all beauty pageant titles:

Funny in all, sure, but this is the counter point. It's meant well, to be a bit more serious than... This.

[Fana McCloud]

Funny in all, sure, but this is the counter point. It's meant well, to be a bit more serious than... This.

Because we all know beauty pageants are such SERIOUS BUSINESS!

I think humor is sometimes appropriate. XD

[Redeemer]

Because we all know beauty pageants are such SERIOUS BUSINESS!

I think humor is sometimes appropriate. XD

Yup. It's a beauty contest. It's nothing that will have an impact on the world, or anything important.

[Xortberg]

Whether it's really important or not, this is in the counterpoint. Humor is fine, but not when it's the entirety of the post. Especially considering yesterday or something he made a post in another 'point topic that was basically just 4 image macros in a row. He seems to not quite understand some of the rules of the Counter Point, and Fluxy was right to point it out.

[Redeemer]

I was directly talking about the topic at hand, not his post.

[Fana McCloud]

I think he was talking about my post. XD And I dare say I think the question SHOULD be asked: why do people take these pageants so seriously as to get bothered by a tranny to begin with? If a pageant is more about the fun of it it shouldn't. He made a valid point even if cloaked in humor.

[Zzz]

Zzz

[Vy'drach]

Because we all know beauty pageants are such SERIOUS BUSINESS!

I think humor is sometimes appropriate. XD

Yup. It's a beauty contest. It's nothing that will have an impact on the world, or anything important.

To be fair, a woman, her ex-husband, and her bodyguard hired a man to break the right leg of another figure skater. Fortunately, the man was an imbecile and only bruised it, and she later won the silver medal in the event. Had the man not been an imbecile and knew what he was doing, however, that could of been not only a career ending injury, but a permanently disabling one that would require several reconstructive surgeries just to be able to walk on it, and even then that might not of been possible.

Beauty pageants, and figure skating, might not be big deals in the grand schemes of the world, but to individual people, they are very srs bsnss, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere, was killed over either, or will be.

And as for no Tranny USA pageant, I do believe there are beauty pageants for 'em in the same channel block as "Ru Paul's Drag Race." As long as it's not exclusively white, you can have a beauty pageant for just about anything. Not that this has a bearing on the matter of allowing them in the Miss World Pageant.

On that matter, I don't really care one way or the other. I don't see why not since we've had a post-op Bond girl.

[Fluxy]

So, R3d, I'm having trouble finding where you see that Xort called you a racist. I'm pretty sure he never said that. Or hinted at it.

Like, really. I read what he said, he even double read, and I am talking to him. We're kinda confused on how you are so determined that he called you racist. If Xort was gonna call you one, he'd be more blunt about it. Really.

And I also do believe you mean "Taking this personally" rather than seriously. The idea of this is a rather serious subject, so it should have a serious mind set. I know myself and Xort are not taking any of this personally, and if we somehow are, then while Dras was here, she was practically taking everything personally as well. I like you just the same amount as I did before any of these posts were made.

The rest is for Xort to really reply to. Not my stuff.

[Xortberg]

Well, what IF this person was somehow able to take part in this but couldn't afford the necessary surgery on top of that? Why does this change everything all of a sudden?

If the man couldn't afford gender reassignment, he wouldn't have the same physical qualities as the other participants, and thus couldn't be judged accordingly. A man with man parts looks quite different from a woman with woman parts, so a judging system based on womanly beauty would obviously be biased in the favor of women and men who have become women and not able to conceivably be fair towards man-men, whereas the only thing that would be unfair towards woman-men would be the mindset of the judges.

I can't really see how this "attempt" was feeble simply because I can't believe how we are comparing that to, again, something serious like education and racism.

It was a feeble attempt because I was drawing a parallel to highlight the fact that this is discrimination, just like racism is. And your wording here implies that sexism - which this whole fiasco could easily be argued to be - isn't as big a deal as racism. I'm not gonna say you're saying that, though, because I really don't think you are. I just felt like bringing it up to highlight this next point:

I personally found THAT was close minded because we can always bring race into anything. You didn't LITERALLY call me a racist, I know. But I don't even have to bring up pragmatics to see how you called me a racist, Xort

I in no way called you a racist. I called no one racists at all. I used racism as an example. You're getting far too hung up on that. There are plenty of parallels between segregation in America due to race and this current fiasco, being the segregation of a beauty pageant due to gender. Making a comparison, nothing more, nothing less. I don't even know you well enough to call you a racist, considering we've never discussed race at all, so I'm a little offended you'd assume I was insulting you without any sort of base. I don't do that, bro.

But what's the point of all this anway?

The point of this thread? Debate. That's why I'm here. I don't give two shits if she gets to compete or if she wins or not. But this is a debate forum, and in posting here I get to debate.

Can I ask you people a question while expecting an honest answer? Did my first post ...insult you? Because if it did, I must apologize. Not because it was my intention to be offensive in the first place but because I didn't adjust myself to your perception. This is a serious issue and for some of you a big part of your personal life so while taking posts like this seriously isn't very wise I completely understand why you would. And I'm not talking about this board's section only....

Like I said, the only thing offending me is that you think I called you a racist when I don't have any basis to. That's almost like you're making the assumption that I'm the kind of guy to make baseless assumptions, which I am not. I just get all worked up because I enjoy debate.