Transgenders in the Miss Universe Pageant

[Redeemer]

The rest is for Xort to really reply to. Not my stuff.

Yeah, so why address this? This is clearly between Xort and R3d, so other people can continue debating about the topic at hand.

[Fluxy]

Yeah, so why address this? This is clearly between Xort and R3d, so other people can continue debating about the topic at hand.

...I was just saying it, Red. I never said other people can't debate or talk about it.=/

EDIT: I also say it so someone doesn't go and complain how I didn't go replying to his whole post. Cause people have done that before, and I'd honestly prefer not to have to deal with that.

[Redeemer]

...I was just saying it, Red. I never said other people can't debate or talk about it.=/

I just want to see a clean debate here. I don't want any personal digs, passive insults or anything, from anyone. I understand you're both discussing this and probably planning tactics on replying to this thread, since you're both posting at the same time, etc., so just be careful. Debates are awesome, but off topic posts aren't.

[Fluxy]

I just want to see a clean debate here. I don't want any personal digs, passive insults or anything, from anyone. I understand you're both discussing this and probably planning tactics on replying to this thread, since you're both posting at the same time, etc., so just be careful. Debates are awesome, but off topic posts aren't.

And I plan on the debate staying clean, as if I wanted it to not be so, I'd be doing -much- more so than asking where Xort implied R3d was racist. My post wasn't off topic, and to my knowledge, I haven't made any personal digs.

[Redeemer]

And I plan on the debate staying clean, as if I wanted it to not be so, I'd be doing -much- more so than asking where Xort implied R3d was racist. My post wasn't off topic, and to my knowledge, I haven't made any personal digs.

Oh I'm not saying you have, I wasn't accusing you of anything, I'm just posting here to show that this topic now has staff's attention and I'm trying to keep this as peaceful as possible. This topic has clearly hit a nerve for people, so I'm simply doing my job here. I'm aware that you have more to say, but it's wise that you're not posting it.

[Falco'sFinest]

I do want to offer my apologies.

My comment in this thread was in poor taste and didn't honor the spirit of the forum. However, the other post I made that was mentioned was entirely relevant to the topic/discussion at hand. I'm sorry but you're just dealing with personal taste on that one and you really have no right to say that.

On-topic:

I'm certainly an equal-opportunity advocate. I really don't see why a transgender shouldn't be allowed to enter a beauty contest so long as they are honoring the spirit of the pageant (i.e. being much more mature than my display earlier) and weren't there to simply make a mockery. A beauty pageant, like a 4-H fair or car show, is an event meant for those who enjoy it. If someone truly wants to enjoy it, why deny them the opportunity?

However, I think this does demand that it be open to both women who became men and men who became women. In my line of thinking, this also means it must eventually be open to men. Now my brain has exploded.... Really though I think that's a fine line and could be argued.

[Xortberg]

this topic now has staff's attention and I'm trying to keep this as peaceful as possible. This topic has clearly hit a nerve for people, so I'm simply doing my job here.

I fail to see where it's hit any nerves Normally, I can get away with straight-up insulting whoever I'm debating and being pretty brutal at times before anyone starts to get antsy and the lock starts to loom. I'm keeping it as civil as I can right now, which is considerably moreso than usual, and Fluxy's not really done anything overtly offensive that I see. But whatever. As long as it's just being watched and nobody's going "ZOMG we're gonna lock it nao!!" it shouldn't be too hard to keep it that way.

I do want to offer my apologies.

My comment was in poor taste and didn't honor the spirit of the forum.

It's no big deal, just figured you ought to know that the 'Point requires a bit more substance in your posts than the rest of the forum You're relatively new here, so a little mess up is not a problem in the slightest.

On-topic:

I'm certainly an equal-opportunity advocate. I really don't see why a transgender shouldn't be allowed to enter a beauty contest so long as they are honoring the spirit of the pageant (i.e. being much more mature than my display earlier) and weren't there to simply make a mockery. A beauty pageant, like a 4-H fair or car show, is an event meant for those who enjoy it. If someone truly wants to enjoy it, why deny them the opportunity?

And as far as I know, that's the idea with this nice lady who wants to participate, so there shouldn't be any problem there.

However, I think this does demand that it be open to both women who became men and men who became women. In my line of thinking, this also means it must eventually be open to men. Now my brain has exploded.... Really though I think that's a fine line and could be argued.

Ah, but like I said, this pageant is judged based on womanly beauty. Therefore, opening it to men who can't afford gender surgery would not work in that regard, as the judging would make it utterly impossible for them to win. Also, you mentioned opening it to woman who've become men, but then they aren't women. They're men. Just like men who've become women are now women. Unless I've just misunderstood your post, at which point go ahead and disregard everything I said.

[Redeemer]

I fail to see where it's hit any nerves Normally, I can get away with straight-up insulting whoever I'm debating and being pretty brutal at times before anyone starts to get antsy and the lock starts to loom. I'm keeping it as civil as I can right now, which is considerably moreso than usual, and Fluxy's not really done anything overtly offensive that I see. But whatever. As long as it's just being watched and nobody's going "ZOMG we're gonna lock it nao!!" it shouldn't be too hard to keep it that way.

By hitting nerves, I mean that people seem to have pretty strong views on it. And I'm not saying anyone has done ANYTHING right now, as I said in a previous post. I'm just stepping in before that happens. And given SFO's reputation, that will happen at some point. :/

[Zzz]

Zzz

[Xortberg]

Okay, no.... I really do feel insulted, man. So lemme express myself here

I really don't see why. I'm being as civil as can be. I've been sooooo much more civil here than I usually am in a debate, just because I have no problem with you and no reason to insult you.

Good, because I'm not. I denied the importance of this miss world thing. It is NOT as big of a deal as racism. I never said sexism isn't fucking horrible. Because, goddammit...it is.

So you got this mixed up, I fear.

You are, again, getting hung up on a terribly small detail that I only used to illustrate my own point. But whatever.

And you know... actually...I don't take comparisons to racism in a serious post too lightly. Don't you see how insulting this really is? You are comparing MY WAY OF THINKING to that of racists. Simply comparing is an insult to me.

Then all I can say is "Welcome to the Internet." I understand that you can be a little insulted to have a comparison drawn, but you're surprisingly butthurt at an offhand comparison that I made just to make another point. You've got to be ready to feel a little insulted when you're in the Counter Point, at least if someone making a comparison is the sort of thing that offends you.

Did you know you get into trouble as a student in Germany for """""SIMPLY"""""" comparing someone's mindset to the racist way of thinking for the sake of proving a point in a completely different field?

Trying to stay as civil as possible, but I can't avoid a little snark here. I suppose it's a great thing we aren't in Germany, are we? This is the wonderful worldwide web. I am American, and you are German, and we are on an international forum based in America.

You know why? Because they can totally make the same mistake as you. You totally assumed I don't want transgenders in the MISS World Pageant because they aren't fully woman to me or whatever. Or at least it has something to do with me trying to keep things clean and women-only. Or soooomething that direction.

Right?

I really don't think that was a mistake, even now, because...

Well it's MISS world, after all...

You don't see Pokémon jumping around in Digimon.

That post really implies that the reason transsexuals shouldn't be in the pageant is because they aren't real women, despite the similarities. It implies that because Pokemon and Digimon share similarities, but they aren't the same thing, and by way of comparison the same applies to your views on women and transsexuals.

That was the whole reason why this debate even started off, hm?

In a nutshell, yes/

Now, what if I tell you I said my ACTUAL opinion is that transgenders should have their own thing going on because I don't think it's fair if they take part in this and they'd have a friendlier and more fun experience among their like-minded people.

I'd say that you should have said that in the very beginning instead of saying something that implies the other thing, even though even -this- post does have similar problems with your original post and so I probably still would have drawn the parallel.

Plus, like I said earlier, the point about it being friendlier is just another way of saying this is just going to bring more discrimination against them, at which point I reiterate the point about integrating blacks into white schools; the same sort of thing happened once, and evidence supports that while desegregating may make things worse at first, it usually ends up getting much better if you can tough it out.

Of course, I never mentioned that so how would YOU know, right? But what gives you the right to even compare me to racists based off something completely relevant to THIS topic?

Again, making a comparison isn't the same as insulting you. You are too hung up on that. I understand you don't like it, but being offended by it isn't a defense, and again, in the Point you need to be ready to put aside things that offend you to have a debate. The comparison between sexism and racism is a logical one, and this situation parallels America's racism problems quite nicely, so the comparison fits. Argue that if you want to disprove these phantom allegations of you being a racist, instead of arguing about how much a logical comparison offends you.

If you ask me, you can't just foolishly draw parallels to racism like that.

It's racism. RACISM, goddammit.

And this topic is about sexism. SEXISM, goddammit. Drawing a parallel to something is not foolish if it's an apt comparison, which it is.

In your position I would've investigated more or asked me politely just what I exactly meant if you are gonna draw parallels to something so NOT related. Getting rid of a potentially uncareful, accidental insult like this.

And if I were you I wouldn't be getting butthurt about something so silly, but I am not you and you are not me. I shouldn't have to ask you exactly what you mean, as this is the Internet and it should be understood that tone, inflection and body language don't carry well over text, and thus you should more often than not say what you mean rather than making a snarky remark about Pokemon and Digimon and hoping that everyone gets what you're saying.

Racism is a huge fucking deal to me...so much that I think we can't just when it comes to this.

Like, for example, this. Half of my earlier responses were me assuring you that I didn't call you a racist, like you said I did. Only now are you letting me know that it's the comparison that offended you, at which point I drop all accountability because I made no derogatory remarks and you're just getting upset over me making a point.

I really have no issue with you. You're a pretty cool guy. But this is the Counter Point, and although none of us follow the statement in the board's descriptions that we should "leave our emotions at the door" because it's impossible not to have emotions, the spirit of that statement is that you shouldn't get butthurt because someone made a remark that offended you, especially if they didn't say it to offend you. If you have a problem with the parallel, prove that it wasn't as apt as I think it was instead of whining about how much you don't like it.

[Redeemer]

If this thread gets any more off topic, I'm locking it. If you guys still need to clear things up, please take it to PM.

[Zzz]

Quote

If you have a problem with the parallel, prove that it wasn't as apt as I think it was instead of whining about how much you don't like it.

And I already did...Zzz

[Xortberg]

And I already did...

That doesn't prove my comparison isn't apt. That is, again, similar to the whole 'separate but equal' scenario that happened during America's segregation. People figured as long as they've got their own thing, it's fine, and it'll probably be better for them because they won't have to deal with the discrimination and will be with their own kind. That was proven to be wrong, so why would the same plan be right in this scenario?

I'm more complaining about manners, that is true. I don't think we can just play around with racism like that.

Who's playing around? I'm taking the debate seriously. Have been since the start. This scenario is, quite simply, discriminatory against transgendered individuals in a way the mirrors the racist ideals seen during the segregation. It's not playing around, it's making a comparison that you haven't proven to be out of place.

The whole ideology of racists is more than simply disturbing. Comparing someone's body of thought to something that was spawned from that ideology is insulting.

Dude, I can compare you to a fish if I really tried. Does that mean I think you're a fish, or in any way like a fish? No. It just means you share certain similarities. I'm not calling you a racist, or saying you think like a racist, because racists aren't so easily quantified into things like that. Some racists might think completely differently than others. I'm saying your reasoning behind this is very similar to the reasoning behind certain racist acts, and since that reasoning has been proven to be very bad then your reasoning here shouldn't stand up either.

I feel like I'm wasting my time because I'd start repeating myself here and we are going horribly off topic. I also feel weird being fussy with you, bro.

Yeah, like I said, I've got no problem with you. I just take debating seriously, and if you're gonna step into the debate forum you've got to be ready to put a damper on the emotions and not be so offended at something.

[Redeemer]

I guess you two need to agree to disagree. At least that's a conclusion.

If men that have had sex changes are allowed to compete in Miss World, then men that are transgendered but haven't had sex changes should also be allowed to compete. R3d had a good point - men who feel they were born in the wrong body, but can't afford the surgery to make them female are losing out on an opportunity. Maybe there's some way around that. It seems unfair that only those who can afford the reconstructive surgery are allowed to compete. That's not too unsimilar from cosmetic surgery to enhance looks in order to do better in a beauty competition, in my opinion anyway. There is the matter of having breasts to fill in the feminine clothing, but I've seen Miss World entries that have been pretty flat-chested.

This opinion comes from my way of thinking, as a student of psychology. I think it's unfair how the act of expensive, gender-swapping surgery can allow a psychologically female person enter a competition.

[Xortberg]

If men that have had sex changes are allowed to compete in Miss World, then men that are transgendered but haven't had sex changes should also be allowed to compete.

I personally have no problem with that, but like I've said twice already, the rules for judging are geared towards feminine beauty. Maybe a very effeminate guy could pull it off, but most dudes wouldn't have the slightest chance at winning because the criteria just don't apply to their body types.

R3d had a good point - men who feel they were born in the wrong body, but can't afford the surgery to make them female are losing out on an opportunity. Maybe there's some way around that. It seems unfair that only those who can afford the reconstructive surgery are allowed to compete.

And again, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure getting into the Miss World pageant means you've already got a pretty healthy financial situation anyway, seeing as it's kind of a big deal. The people who do this do it because it's a huge deal to them, so they're gonna sink a lot of money into trying to win because you don't just compete in a beauty pageant this important for the fun of it. Plus, it works in the opposite direction too; just because some people can't afford the surgery doesn't mean those who can should be punished for it. If this thing is passed, and the rules are revised to allow transsexuals, lots of people are going to revolt even though the people in question identify and are physically female. Trying to force them to accept non-sexchanged men wouldn't work at all. Maybe in quite a few years they could try that, but going for too much just wouldn't work here.

[Harlow]

It's not Miss World, it's its more exposed counterpart, Miss Universe.

Even though I'm all for equalness and fair treatment, I don't think letting transgenders into MU would be a wise decision. Not because of any religious or empty problem, just because it's hard, even impossible, to get everyone think of them as women, so it would feel like a huge elephant in the room for some. Plus, there are already quite a number transgender pageants all over the world, so why not make an international version?

It's like a black person complaining over a movie that doesn't show any black people. Like (a real case I read about long ago) being labeled racist and a bigot for wanting to have an "all-white" school group when there were already "all-asian" or "all-hispanic" groups. Sometimes, the "majority" needs to have their own group, and, unless that group insults minorities or the minorities aren't allowed to have groups, it isn't wrong.

[Xortberg]

It's not Miss World, it's its more exposed counterpart, Miss Universe.

Silly me, I should have caught that. Oh well.

Even though I'm all for equalness and fair treatment, I don't think letting transgenders into MU would be a wise decision. Not because of any religious or empty problem, just because it's hard, even impossible, to get everyone think of them as women, so it would feel like a huge elephant in the room for some. Plus, there are already quite a number transgender pageants all over the world, so why not make an international version?

The main problem I see with this is because it seems to be operating under the assumption that being transsexual is sort of its own, separate gender. If it was, then transsexual pageants would make plenty of sense, as it would have its own unique criteria and whatnot. It's not, though; a male who is transsexual identifies himself as a woman, not some other thing specific to his unorthodox gender identity, and a man who gets a sex change identifies as a woman and physically matches up to a woman, with the exception of reproductive organs which some natural-born women might also lack. Therefore, separating them into women, men and transsexuals really just doesn't make sense.

It's like a black person complaining over a movie that doesn't show any black people. Like (a real case I read about long ago) being labeled racist and a bigot for wanting to have an "all-white" school group when there were already "all-asian" or "all-hispanic" groups. Sometimes, the "majority" needs to have their own group, and, unless that group insults minorities or the minorities aren't allowed to have groups, it isn't wrong.

And again, my problem with this is basically the same problem I had with the above so I won't repeat the whole thing. I will say that unless transsexual acceptance becomes more widespread, it will be exceedingly difficult for an 'all transsexual' pageant to really be organized and get the same sort of publicity or recognition that the big ones like MU and MW that everyone knows, especially considering that the number of transsexuals who want to come out to the public on that level can't be very large with the discrimination they're likely to face.

But all of that last paragraph is just hypothetical, and I have little real solid knowledge on that subject, so take it only as my informed opinion because that's all it is.

[Geo Stelar]

(Edited first post; Just had an epic fail moment )

[Harlow]

The main problem I see with this is because it seems to be operating under the assumption that being transsexual is sort of its own, separate gender. If it was, then transsexual pageants would make plenty of sense, as it would have its own unique criteria and whatnot. It's not, though; a male who is transsexual identifies himself as a woman, not some other thing specific to his unorthodox gender identity, and a man who gets a sex change identifies as a woman and physically matches up to a woman, with the exception of reproductive organs which some natural-born women might also lack. Therefore, separating them into women, men and transsexuals really just doesn't make sense.

But that's still the normal status quo, because the base of transsexualism is that a healthy member of one gender willingly wants to be the other. I believe that any pysichal disease should be put on another topic when it comes to sex identification. It's still hard for me to look at them as women and not separate, and it may always be that way. I won't hate it but I won't understand it; it's all over the mindset of the person in question over there.

And again, my problem with this is basically the same problem I had with the above so I won't repeat the whole thing. I will say that unless transsexual acceptance becomes more widespread, it will be exceedingly difficult for an 'all transsexual' pageant to really be organized and get the same sort of publicity or recognition that the big ones like MU and MW that everyone knows, especially considering that the number of transsexuals who want to come out to the public on that level can't be very large with the discrimination they're likely to face.

But it's way more difficult to mix them all and hope it all goes swimmingly and have all the others who accepted the original version accept this new one. It's easier to create groups at first, and them maybe, a mixed group will come out of it.

[Fox-Shot]

I feel that entrance simply shouldn't require verification of a gender, and simply be based on assumption. So if they look like a woman or became a woman, they are a woman.

And in many cases I've seen of people being really good at looking like the opposite sex, despite being very male in appearance. If people assume you're a woman, you deserve the role as such.

[DoctorAllosaurus]

Last time I checked, getting cosmetic surgery doesn't magically change your gender.

[Fana McCloud]

Last time I checked, getting cosmetic surgery doesn't magically change your gender.

Actually it does change one's gender - what doesn't change is one's biological SEX, which is a different thing.

[CrypticQuery]

The way I see things; regardless of your gender, if you're bored and rich enough to participate in one of these competitions, then so be it. :lol:

[Harlow]

Well, Venezuela (aka my residence aka a beauty pageant superpower) opposes to that measure, claiming it's "Disrespectful to the Miss Venezuela organization" "We respect them, but we dont' share their ideas. The transexuals should compete in their own pageants"

[Faisul]

This is my take on this:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes, a duck.

If a male-to-female post op transgender person wants to join, that is fine, because for all intents and purposes she is now a woman, uterus or not.

If a male-to-female pre op transgender person wants to join, this is also fine, because unless you took a look in her pants, she would appear to all as a woman. This, of course, depends on if she looks like a woman or not, as Miss Universe is (currently) a pageant dealing with western ideals of feminine beauty - whether or not this is fair is not the point (I don't think it is).

If a dude in a skirt complete with 5-o'clock shade and a rockin' pelt of chest-hair wants to join... I don't think this is all that cool. Because while the dude may be wearing a skirt, he is clearly a dude. If the dude is effeminate enough to pass as a woman, however... Sure! He'll just have to stuff his bra with TP. And shave.

The whole business with Miss Universe pageant organizers being nervous about accepting transgendered persons because Miss Universe is supposed to be 'fun' just seems like a lame excuse to me. If it's inclusive to multiple groups who now identify as women it's fun as shit, but if it only caters to the uterine segment of the female population it's like an exclusive club and that's the exact opposite of 'fun' to me. Strikes me as a bunch of uptight people going 'ewww trannies' and getting their wigs in a twist over a pretty asinine problem.

Gender ain't the same as it used to be because we know more about it now, and public discussion of it is more or less accepted. Back when it was a simple binary system a lot of folks got discriminated against and that's not cool. Being excluded from famous events like Miss Universe could be construed as active discrimination. That's not cool.