Redeemer Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 All right. Before this goes any further. Do not, and I'm serious, do NOT use this topic to express your homophobic beliefs. You can give your opinion on gay marriage, but whether you like homosexuals or not is irrelevant. You can mask your discrimination with "but that's my opinion" for only so long, then I'll start dishing out serious warnings. Edit: I'm just putting this out there since I'm seeing this topic getting worse as time passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroberson Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Redeemer, just so I know I am seeing the same thing, where are the homophobic remarks? I haven't really seen the discussion getting worse except it has gotten a bit derailed by religious discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Redeemer, just so I know I am seeing the same thing, where are the homophobic remarks? I haven't really seen the discussion getting worse except it has gotten a bit derailed religious discussion The main problem with a topic such as this is that comments and opinions which are given in good faith and with no discrimination even remotely intended are taken as the opposite by some people at times. Discernment is needed, especially concerning a subject as volatile as this one. The last thing we want to do is ask someone to refrain from their comments when to the majority of participants there was no offense intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroberson Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 The main problem with a topic such as this is that comments and opinions which are given in good faith and with no discrimination even remotely intended are taken as the opposite by some people at times. Discernment is needed, especially concerning a subject as volatile as this one. The last thing we want to do is ask someone to refrain from their comments when to the majority of participants there was no offense intended. I feel slightly obligated to apologizing if I offended anyone and I truly have respect for everyone who offers their opinions and in turn respects other opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redeemer Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Redeemer, just so I know I am seeing the same thing, where are the homophobic remarks? I haven't really seen the discussion getting worse except it has gotten a bit derailed by religious discussion The open remarks meaning "I don't like gays". I've seen them in a few posts already. People word them carefully but they mean the same thing. This topic is about same sex marriage. Not about views on homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I feel slightly obligated to apologizing if I offended anyone and I truly have respect for everyone who offers their opinions and in turn respects other opinions Yes, and I'm much the same way. Communication via mediums like the Internet can make it all the more confusing at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarita Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 My view on this issue is "gays are fabulous, and their weddings would be the most fun ever." But it's not actually my view I want to share, it's my mom's. When the news that Obama was now publicly supporting gay rights my mom actually came out and told me one of her political beliefs for the first time. While she is a strictly Christian Baptist woman, she also understands that gay and lesbian individuals' love is not worth any less than any others, and firmly believes that they should be allowed to marry, because of stories in which the partner of another wasn't allowed to visit in hospitals when they were in critical condition, or in cases where a child would be considered an orphan just because one parent died and the other wasn't legally allowed to be their parent. She told me that she thinks of it like two spinsters living together, when one dies, even though they've spent their whole lives together, you would think that the other woman would be allowed at least first choice at the things of the woman she's lived with her whole life, and for probably whom no one else in the world was more important? My heart swelled with pride when she expressed this, because it wasn't a dismissive, "oh I don't really care it's none of my business" approach, she genuinely cares, and believes that yes, two consenting adults of any gender should be allowed all the chances in the world as any other couple. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 My view on this issue is "gays are fabulous, and their weddings would be the most fun ever." First off, that bit with your mother was quite touching; it seems as if some humans do indeed genuinely care about others regardless of how we all think/act. And pertaining to this quote; I never thought of things in this light. I imagine a particularly fabulous type of wedding would be so freaking cool that everyone else would no doubt be jealous out of their minds. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkyway64 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 So we've spent the last page of posts smacking down those that don't agree same sex marriage and gay relationships, but something is still a bit unclear. User, Geo, Icy, why? Why DON'T you like the idea? I see "it's my opinion" and religion as reasons, but what formed those opinions, and if you're not doing them yourself, why is it any of your business whether or not other people follow your beliefs? Lots of sins are legal, particularly those surrounding lust, ahem User. What's wrong with opening another option in the "land of the free?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redeemer Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Milky for the love of god, don't poke other members with your troll stick. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluxy Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Well, Under Icy, Geo's, and User's view [seeing as Geo and User agree with what Icy said] I think that's a little silly. Everyone is entitled to feelings, opinions, and that's perfectly fine. You don't need to be religious to disagree with gay marriage. Simple as that. And, he is indeed correct. Two men alone, can not make a child. Two Women alone, can not make a child. If they could, It's because Joss Whedon made a film on it and made it so. Joking aside. If it was meant to be; If there is this greater force out there, telling us that "So and So" is meant to play out like this... Then why is it not? Something of that great force must be powerful to make something 'Be' a certain way. If some people fall in love with anouther person, who can not assist them in the process of making a child by themselves; I personally see nothing wrong with them being legally wedded. Under a church? Nope, because that is the religions deal. Separation of Church and state. State, should not dictate two women or two men shouldn't be together because they share the same gender because the church says so. People don't need to change their opinions on Gay Marriage. Some people still don't accept a Black man going to a school that White men also attend. Some people won't change they're opinions. What people need to do, for us to survive as a human race, is just accept change, and not go out of their way to stop overall happiness in their Kin, when the thing they go to stop is completely benign. Unless people will literally feel pain over two of the same gender being married, under law by the power of a judge, without religious intent... I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. Those are simply my opinions, and just as all said before, people don't have to see eye to eye with me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo Stelar Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Okay, so it's time to add my inevitable two cents. Personally, I don't agree with the gay/lesbian society and their beliefs. That being said, I don't believe people should take away their rights as humans. I am a Christian yes, however, what others do behind closed doors with their SO, whether they be same sex or different sex is none of my business. In fact, there are gay and lesbian Christians. Now from the standpoint of my religion, and this is just me talking, my pastor probably doesn't think the same way on this issue, God loves everyone. He gave us a way to Heaven, if someone believes in that way, and trusts in Jesus, it shouldn't matter who they are together with. In the Old Testament, it was said that a man shouldn't lay with another man, however, after the Old Testament, when Jesus came down to Earth, new rules were implemented. Most of the Old Testament had become obsolete, now it's still in the Christian bible because there should be some kind of backstory, a historical overview as told by the bible from the viewpoints of the central characters of the different books. However, in the New Testament, nothing at all was said about gay people. If you look at all of Jesus' teachings, you won't find a single word spoken about gay people or lesbians. And now time for a funny and very relevant picture: (Just in case...) Well, I for myself don't agree with the idea of same sex marriage, involve religion or not. I mean, gay and men or lesbian and woman can love each other, but marriage just seem wrong to me. Simply because for me marriage is for a man and a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gestalt Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 *Cracks knuckles* (Just in case...) I'd like to address some of the very stupid things about that page, and shall do so with a couple of quote showcasing the utter stupidity involved. 1. He also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too? Um... Wow. I think this is the only quote I need to showcase just how stupid the page you linked in argument is. "Jesus didn't say anything about gay sex? WELL HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RAPE AND BY COMPARING THEM I'M IMPLYING THAT GAY SEX IS A CRIME LIKE RAPE!" Yeah, I'm done pointing out how dumb that site is. I just woke up, and I don't want to be saturating my brain with dumb right away. Shit's bad for you. Well, I for myself don't agree with the idea of same sex marriage, involve religion or not. "Involve religion or not" and yet you link the above site and then go on to say: I mean, gay and men or lesbian and woman can love each other, but marriage just seem wrong to me. Simply because for me marriage is for a man and a woman. Which is a distinctly religious belief, as far as I can tell, because I'm sure marriages aren't a Christian exclusive and yet you're trying to apply the very Christian ideal of marriage to your views. So yeah, basically what you're doing, as far as I can tell, is being a homophobe and talking about how the love of two consenting adults of the same sex isn't worth as much as the love of a heterosexual couple, hiding behind your religion to try to avoid taking criticism, and trying to say it isn't your religious view on it. You really need to plan things better before you open your mouth. Not everyone can go by the seat of their pants and end up looking smart. My biggest beef is with this right here, so if you want to skip past the snarky rage and get the TL;DR version of my rant, here it comes: but marriage just seem wrong to me. Simply because for me marriage is for a man and a woman. Marriage is not a Christian thing. Other religions have it, and even atheists can get married. If an atheist, who absolutely spits on your religion, can get married, why raise a fuss about gay people? The religion of it does not matter. Homosexuals want to be able to marry, as Sarita pointed out so wonderfully, because married couples have certain important, intimate rights and until homosexuals are allowed to marry they can't have those rights. Loved one in the hospital and his family are homophobes? Good luck getting in to see him. Your views basically amount to saying "Gay people are fine and I won't judge them, but I'm totally judging them and saying that they shouldn't be able to be married. Gay relationships aren't worth a marriage. If they want their rights, they need to do it right and be in a straight relationship like us good Christian folk." If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future Oh my God. Are you serious? Please, tell me you're joking. You can't be that stupid. Not only is that a logical fallacy - http://www.fallacyfi...g/slipslop.html - it's a shameful and pathetic attempt to drag homosexual couples' relationships through the mud. Please just leave if that pathetically weak, fallacious sentence is the most you can muster up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroberson Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future Admittedly, I am with Xort on this one being a logical fallacy. While I usually contend to siding with "slippery slope" logic because it does apply at times, I feel like its a bit of a stretch to reach for a comparison between the occurrence of wedding man and animal and wedding of homosexuals. I will however detract from Xort when he starts to sound rather offensive and gets a bit below the belt in accusing others of being "stupid". I feel like many of the inciting comments were rather excessive and I would rather not lump people into "stupid" piles just because they may not have made a fully formed argument in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future I'm going to have to refer you to reason number 3; __ Marriage is not a Christian thing. Other religions have it, and even atheists can get married. If an atheist, who absolutely spits on your religion, can get married, why raise a fuss about gay people? The religion of it does not matter. Homosexuals want to be able to marry, as Sarita pointed out so wonderfully, because married couples have certain important, intimate rights and until homosexuals are allowed to marry they can't have those rights. Loved one in the hospital and his family are homophobes? Good luck getting in to see him. Honestly, this bit sums things up for me completely. Banning and/or going against gay marriage is yet another form of discrimination against people that others don't like for whatever ridiculous reasons. There are so many other examples of baseless persecution in our civilization's history that they are too numerous to list here. __ And going off of what sroberson said; your points are articulated quite fine without insults. Resist the urge no matter how ridiculous someone else is being, please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fana McCloud Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future Because animals can't SIGN marriage contracts, let alone legally consent to them due to their inability to think and reason on the level of humans? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Admittedly, I am with Xort on this one being a logical fallacy. While I usually contend to siding with "slippery slope" logic because it does apply at times, I feel like its a bit of a stretch to reach for a comparison between the occurrence of wedding man and animal and wedding of homosexuals. Yeah, a slippery slope can exist. It's just when people try to point one out, they're usually just going for scare tactics. I will however detract from Xort when he starts to sound rather offensive and gets a bit below the belt in accusing others of being "stupid". I feel like many of the inciting comments were rather excessive and I would rather not lump people into "stupid" piles just because they may not have made a fully formed argument in this case. I only called Geo's website stupid and then Lord O Donnell stupid. I may have been harsh in doing so, but he knows the Counter Point is a place for serious discussion and coming in and making a claim without a fully formed argument to back it up and instead just relying on a shameful scare-tactic logical fallacy is stupid. Because animals can't SIGN marriage contracts, let alone legally consent to them due to their inability to think and reason on the level of humans? ^^^ Also, this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If society has no restriant then who's to say we wont be weding man and animal in the future Because animals can't SIGN marriage contracts, let alone legally consent to them due to their inability to think and reason on the level of humans? http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/woman-marries-dolphin/2006/01/01/1136050339590.html Note that the this one was also classified as a "gay marriage" apparently. http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/43297/woman-marries-building/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fana McCloud Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I doubt either one of those marriages are legal marriages - one is explicitly stated as such, the other comes across as a stunt to save the building from being demolished. But well played. XD I think most peoples' concerns here are with the withholding of important legal benefits from homosexual couples, not the use of the term "marriage" (unless you're an uber conservative of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Links seemed appropriate enough, lawl. But yes, they weren't legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroberson Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I appreciate the point the lady was trying to make in saying that "hey if corporations are people, then buildings are too!" Felt like it was a fun stab at corporate America trying to take over. @Xort, I just felt it was a bit harsh of an attack and wished to point out that maybe it went a bit extreme for the thread - regardless of it being a place to debate or not. I do understand your frustrations though since bringing up such an out there topic as allowing humans and animals to marry is almost like throwing up a slippery slope and red herring into the argument. I know it would catch a lot of people if someone hadn't pointed out that its a bad argument. No hard feelings :friends: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo Stelar Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) (Y'all ninja'd me ) Marriage is not a Christian thing. Other religions have it, and even atheists can get married. If an atheist, who absolutely spits on your religion, can get married, why raise a fuss about gay people? The religion of it does not matter. Homosexuals want to be able to marry, as Sarita pointed out so wonderfully, because married couples have certain important, intimate rights and until homosexuals are allowed to marry they can't have those rights. Loved one in the hospital and his family are homophobes? Good luck getting in to see him. Your views basically amount to saying "Gay people are fine and I won't judge them, but I'm totally judging them and saying that they shouldn't be able to be married. Gay relationships aren't worth a marriage. If they want their rights, they need to do it right and be in a straight relationship like us good Christian folk." I am not judging and saying they shouldn't get married. Like I mentioned here, I just ignore it, but I don't agree with the idea of gay-man and/or lesbian-woman marriage; I just think it's wrong. And I meant it when I said "involve religion or not"; my views might seem Christian-based but even if I'm not Christian I still won't agree with the idea of same-sex marriage. It will still seem wrong to me. And we all know marriage is not exclusive to Christians. Which is a distinctly religious belief, as far as I can tell, because I'm sure marriages aren't a Christian exclusive and yet you're trying to apply the very Christian ideal of marriage to your views. So yeah, basically what you're doing, as far as I can tell, is being a homophobe and talking about how the love of two consenting adults of the same sex isn't worth as much as the love of a heterosexual couple, hiding behind your religion to try to avoid taking criticism, and trying to say it isn't your religious view on it. You really need to plan things better before you open your mouth. Not everyone can go by the seat of their pants and end up looking smart. I'm not hiding behind religion; it's my view on my own. I'm not trying to avoid criticism, either; or I wouldn't have stated this topic at all. I might appear as though I'm just saying this isn't my religious view, (because it does seem so) but I don't. Edited May 14, 2012 by Geo Stelar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroberson Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Geo, I think what a lot of people are having a hard time dealing with in this debate is why you think it is wrong. Usually when people feel a certain way, they have a reason. Be it religion or not, I would respect it, its just a lot of people here don't like to settle for "just because" lol :P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I am not judging and saying they shouldn't get married. Like I mentioned here, I just ignore it, but I don't agree with the idea of gay-man and/or lesbian-woman marriage; I just think it's wrong. And you've yet to provide a reason as to why it's wrong. Also, for the record, not agreeing with it generally = thinking it shouldn't happen. Sure, you're the mellow kind of dude who thinks that way and realizes that others don't, so you aren't gonna force your views on others, and for that you're infinitely better than the scum I argue with on Facebook, but still. You think it's wrong, but you haven't once explained why, despite admitting that your views are very Christian-based yet saying they have nothing to do with Christianity. Tell me exactly why you think it's wrong instead of just saying that it is. That's the nature of a debate, which is kind of the entire point of this board. That way, I can actually make counterpoints against your arguments instead of just your beliefs - which I'm still not convinced aren't religious like you say. You're really gonna have to try hard to prove that claim to me. And I meant it when I said "involve religion or not"; my views might seem Christian-based but even if I'm not Christian I still won't agree with the idea of same-sex marriage. It will still seem wrong to me. And we all know marriage is not exclusive to Christians. I'm really skeptical about this. I don't have any hard stats, so if you can find any to prove me wrong then fine, I'll concede, but most atheists I know don't have a problem with gay rights. Most people I do know who have a problem with it are religious, whether Christian or not. You say you don't have these beliefs because you're a Christian, but it seems to me that the biggest contributing factor towards those views is religion. I'm baffled at the idea that anyone could look objectively, and not with their views heavily influenced by religion, at two people in love and come to the conclusion that it's wrong just because they happen to both have dangly parts. I'm not hiding behind religion; it's my view on my own. I'm not trying to avoid criticism, either; or I wouldn't have stated this topic at all. And yet basically nothing you've said has offered any argument. It's pretty much just been "I don't think it's right, but don't hate me for it because I don't actively go around gaybashing!" If you're going to make a topic in the debate board, you can't be wishy-washy and on the fence. Think it's wrong? Prove it's wrong. Logic the shit out of me, and explain just why having the same genitalia earns your disdain. Geo, I think what a lot of people are having a hard time dealing with in this debate is why you think it is wrong. Usually when people feel a certain way, they have a reason. Be it religion or not, I would respect it, its just a lot of people here don't like to settle for "just because" lol This. As I said earlier in my post, this is the debate subforum. If you're making a topic or post here, you can not settle for "Just because." You need reasons, and you need to be ready to have those reasons challenged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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