USSR= Evil Empire

[TCPeppyTc]

In 1984, President Ronald Reagen called the Soviet Union "the evil empire." It is common among many conservatives today to think of the Soviet Union as "evil." I think it certainly was that in the Stalin period, but beyond that am not sure. It seems Lenin was a ruthless, but not wholly evil power hungry person. I havent heard about Krushchev or any of the subsequent premiers being particularly bad. I know Russia itself has always had kind of an evil streak, but am wondering what anyone here thinks of it? Any thoughts on the old US of SR?

[ballisticwaffles]

Oh Soviet Russia, your arms race with the united states.

You Starving your citizens while banning any sort of aid.

Your Gulags and your reeducation camps

Your near utter destruction of anysort of prosperity in western europe.

Your iron curtain over the whole of western Europe

your Stewing of anti semetic Western berlin sentiments

Your ability to sell all of your cold war stockpile to everyone else.

Your Space race.

Your utter failure at Accomplishing communism.

Oh Soviet Russia, Even in you, you still SUCK.

[TCPeppyTc]

Not to mention sending their own POWS to Siberia. They were treated the worst of all by the Germans ( much more than Western allies) and were treated the same by the Motherland. Tsk tsk....

[LoneWolf]

Soviet Russia was BAD. Though communist ideals themselves aren't bad, they're just that. IDEALS. They were very poorly executed in Soviet Russia, forcing their people into near starvation and reeducation camps. They did communism terribly. The central idea of communism is everyone working together, so there is no government, only equal people. However, in Soviet Russia, this didn't work. They had a giant, bloated, dangerous government with a huge secret police. It was utter stupidity.

And the Cold War, well, I've always visualized it as like the end of Face-Off where everyone is screaming and pointing guns at each other, except replace guns with doomsday devices.

So yeah. In Soviet Russia, stupidity is you.

And obligatroy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyiEaSzpdMk

[Synapsepilot]

Ah the Soviets...You know, the Soviet leaders tended to put propaganda purposes and deadlines ahead of their Cosmonaut's lives, at least when compared to NASA. There are multiple examples of this including Soyuz 1, and especially Soyuz 11. Not to mention the so called phantom cosmonauts. Yuri Gagarin may have been the first man to come back from space alive, rather than just the first man in space...

http://www.astronaut...am/phaonaut.htm

[chaos_Leader]

Soviet Russia was BAD. Though communist ideals themselves aren't bad, they're just that. IDEALS. They were very poorly executed in Soviet Russia, forcing their people into near starvation and reeducation camps. They did communism terribly. The central idea of communism is everyone working together, so there is no government, only equal people. However, in Soviet Russia, this didn't work. They had a giant, bloated, dangerous government with a huge secret police. It was utter stupidity.

Yep, that pretty much summed up my thoughts on Soviet Russia. Soviet "Communism" wasn't really Communism at all.

[someguy63-]

Karl Marx, the so-called founder of communism even stated that his ideals would never be properly executed and thrive properly in a place such as Russia. He believed that his ideas would be better adapted in more developed countries at the time such as England and Germany. Or so I believe.

I think that Russia and other similar (sic) countries fell to communism because Marx's ideas sounded more appealing for the Russian poor than the middle-classes (more likely his intended target than the poor people from Russia) of more developed nations at the time.

[Harlow]

(Sorry if a resident or someone that has Russian roots listens to this)

but I still think that even modern day Russia's isn't any better. Nuclear power and Oil aside, Russia's a socially inept country and far away of being one of those "potential superpowers". Its commercial bonds with other countries isn't as strong as others (Ex: UE-USA, USA-China, UE-Japan) lowly quality of life and high rate of corruption in its political figures. Also:

-Russia, being so big, only has two important cities.

-Russia's oen of the few countries whose population decreases over time

-It's just ranked 5th on goverment investment on military (Being surpassed by the USA, China, France and the UK) and they try to make believe they are as still big and burly as 20 or so years ago.

[Faisul]

It's easy to lose your head when you get into the 'evil empire' dialectic people in power have been throwing at their enemies' nations. While it's certain that 50's and 60's USSR was anything but a cheery, happy place it's also true that the US had its fair share of fuckups, especially concerning social justice and other fairly crucial societal issues as well as foreign policy (nice job in south america, really). What you guys need to keep in mind is that, first and foremost, there was no other Big Bad Wolf around other than the USSR from the end of World War 2 until the very early nineties. This of course made what we know today as 'the West' very nervous and they did whatever they could to make the Soviet Union look as shitty as possible so it would be easier to justify any hostile action made against them.

The above is not to say that the Soviets didn't, and today's Russia doesn't, do horrible crap. They did and they still do. The complete takeover of the Communist Party by autocratic shitheads (most notably Stalin) was a complete disaster and left the country in shambles after trying too hard at empire and stomping on everyone who disagreed's faces with steel-capped boots. But calling it an evil empire goes a bit too far, sure you had the gulags, the execution of political dissidents, the oppression of people both domestic and abroad, the eradication of the free press and everything else that made the Soviet Union a pretty crappy place, but the average Soviet citizen knew as much about the US and the West in general as the West knew about the USSR, i.e. each side largely thought the other was a big sonofabitch that needed to be put down. There was, and still is, a lot of bad blood between West and East. That doesn't mean that your regular Ivan Averagovich was a bear-sized, vodka-sipping baby-raping Commie bastard. If there was any evil in the Soviet bureaucracy you might want to reserve your blanket statements for the people in power, i.e. the relatively small cabal of autocrats that ran the country for nearly fifty years.

[Redeemer]

I know Russia itself has always had kind of an evil streak

What IS IT with you and making topics specifically to bash people you don't agree with? You did this when you first joined here, now you're doing it again. STOP IT.

I'll let discussion happen here until another member of staff appears and gives me a second opinion. Until then, watch yourself.

[conaly]

Hi,

most our thoughts are a little bit one-sided, aren't they? Did anyone of you even live in the time of Soviet Union?

First thing: the Soviet Union was a socialistic, not communistic country. The communism was an utopian goal and they actually knew, they could never achieve it.

Second thing: most people had a rather good life in Soviet Union. Nearly everyone had work, a house or a flat and a family. Most homeless/poor people where foreigners and there weren't that many in that time.

The military stuff wasn't to different from the USA. Both countries invested billions of Dollars for crap which only reason was to scare the enemies. Interestingly the good thing about that was, that they invested much more money in education and scientific research than today, because they needed new technologies for the military stuff, but also used the results for civil stuff. Today you only invest, if you can earn good money with it.

Next thing: Russia has more than two important cities, just most people don't know any more. If you would do a little bit more research about Russia, you find cities like Novosibirsk and Yekaterinburg (both important for modern industry and science), Omsk (high tech industry) or Kazan (mechanical engineering, oil/gas industry and pharmacy industries).

The decrease of population is actually a very big problem in Russia, but also in EU-countries like Germany, France, United Kingdom ans so on. So it's a quite common problem.

The biggest problem was and still is the corruption. The government as well as many people have this "how do I get the best results for me" mentality. That's why many systems, which actually were a good idea, did not work that well. Even today you can get EVERYTHING (and I really mean EVERYTHING!!!) for money.

Next interesting fact, that western media often don't show: although there are regular protests against Putin an the current government, most people in Russia support him. The opponent of Putin are a small minority.

Sure, Russia and the Soviet Union had many things, which suck completely (i.e. they often don't take it too serious with the importance of other people's lives). But not everything was that bad and still isn't that bad, as you hear it in the western world. I know what I'm talking about, as I've been a few times in Russia and my parents even lived a long time in the Soviet Union. I've seen many things and heard many things and obtained first-hand information. It is really not that bad!

[Harlow]

Not speaking against soviet union, because I wasnt' even born. I took most of it from a blog a reporter did after the supposed "WW3 Russia-China alliance", I really hope you don't take any offense.

It may have more important cities other than Moscow and St. Petersburg, but those are the only two real "global" cities. Compare with how many global cities has the US or Germany.

It also was recently stated by a Russian official that a big part of Russian weaponry presents many kind of defects.

If you'd like, investigate Venezuela, and you'll find many points which I can hardly defend myself such as you did.

[Thu'um]

What IS IT with you and making topics specifically to bash people you don't agree with? You did this when you first joined here, now you're doing it again. STOP IT.

I'll let discussion happen here until another member of staff appears and gives me a second opinion. Until then, watch yourself.

whoa, whoa, whoa. This is the counter point. Topics generaly do start off with one member questioning the ideals of some one else. I, dras, and many others, who start topics do it all the time. Wasn't the bull fighting topic a judgment on bull fighting? Or the nudity topic question how others could possibly think it was wrong? I don't think he is "bashing" russians or comies.

In 1984, President Ronald Reagen called the Soviet Union "the evil empire." It is common among many conservatives today to think of the Soviet Union as "evil." I think it certainly was that in the Stalin period, but beyond that am not sure. It seems Lenin was a ruthless, but not wholly evil power hungry person. I havent heard about Krushchev or any of the subsequent premiers being particularly bad. I know Russia itself has always had kind of an evil streak, but am wondering what anyone here thinks of it? Any thoughts on the old US of SR?

He starts reffrencing a former president of the United States, then countinues to list the commen belife of russian poltitcs from a conservative view. The guy lists his oppinions on the matter, which are quite valid. He then leaves room to explain what he doesn't know about the topic, AND finishes by asking other member's perception of the topic. As far as i can tell this topic is pretty norm for the counter point.

[Redeemer]

whoa, whoa, whoa. This is the counter point. Topics generaly do start off with one member questioning the ideals of some one else. I, dras, and many others, who start topics do it all the time. Wasn't the bull fighting topic a judgment on bull fighting? Or the nudity topic question how others could possibly think it was wrong? I don't think he is "bashing" russians or comies.

He starts reffrencing a former president of the United States, then countinues to list the commen belife of russian poltitcs from a conservative view. The guy lists his oppinions on the matter, which are quite valid. He then leaves room to explain what he doesn't know about the topic, AND finishes by asking other member's perception of the topic. As far as i can tell this topic is pretty norm for the counter point.

Uh, I beg your pardon? Hahahahaha, okay wait, you clearly don't understand me here.

I don't need anyone, or you, to explain the topic to me. Had I deemed this topic inappropriate I would have locked it by now. Had YOU read what I said, you would have seen that I quoted a certain part of his post which was unnecessary and offensive. Go back and read what I said AJC: my point was that TCPeppy made a general statement about Russia being evil, and statements like that are against the rules, if you didn't know.

The Counter Point is for discussing topics and your opinions, not for stating that an entire country has "an evil streak". I don't expect all the members here to fully get it, so to clarify, that's what my beef was. Do you understand now?

I've stomped down on all topics that have undertones like this, and personally, I found this statement of an evil streak really inappropriate for a topic that's to discuss history of certain figures. You don't deem an entire country evil based on it's history.

["User"]

Hi,

most our thoughts are a little bit one-sided, aren't they? Did anyone of you even live in the time of Soviet Union?

First thing: the Soviet Union was a socialistic, not communistic country. The communism was an utopian goal and they actually knew, they could never achieve it.

If anything it was run by the Communist Party.

Second thing: most people had a rather good life in Soviet Union. Nearly everyone had work, a house or a flat and a family. Most homeless/poor people where foreigners and there weren't that many in that time.

Around what era are we talking about here and by who's standards? One of my ex-GF's and her family were born in the U.S.S.R. and they would adamantly disagree with what you just said here and they would tell you that life wasn't nearly that easy.

Next interesting fact, that western media often don't show: although there are regular protests against Putin an the current government, most people in Russia support him. The opponent of Putin are a small minority.

I've seen the media point that out quite a bit early on when they first started having the elections but yeah, it's been often understated recently.

Sure, Russia and the Soviet Union had many things, which suck completely (i.e. they often don't take it too serious with the importance of other people's lives). But not everything was that bad and still isn't that bad, as you hear it in the western world. I know what I'm talking about, as I've been a few times in Russia and my parents even lived a long time in the Soviet Union. I've seen many things and heard many things and obtained first-hand information. It is really not that bad!

Again, it depends on who you're talking to and what standards they have. As mentioned earlier my ex's parents were born there and they talked to me over a period of 3 or 4 hours while I was eating a whole bunch of Russian food about how life was like. Things like perspectives of the U.S.S.R. from the western media, as well as dispelling the myths that accompany them.

Like all countries however, you got your "good" and "bad" times but I'll agree that unless you've lived over a period of time in both countries you won't know the entire truth.

You don't deem an entire country evil based on it's history.

Not if you're George W. Bush or Reagen lol.

[Zzz]

On 6/13/2012 at 5:24 AM, TCPeppyTc said:

I know Russia itself has always had kind of an evil streak

But seriously, Zzz

[Redeemer]

Not if you're George W. Bush or Reagen lol.

Pffffahaha. XDDD

But yeah my thoughts on Russia's history? People tend to hate on Russia due to media coverage from the US during the concerned era, but really, we should all know better than to keep this hatred alive through time. People do things when under pressure, and to be fair, the Russians had it really bad back then. If I was living in such conditions, I'd want a revolution too.

[Thu'um]

Uh, I beg your pardon? Hahahahaha, okay wait, you clearly don't understand me here.

I don't need anyone, or you, to explain the topic to me. Had I deemed this topic inappropriate I would have locked it by now. Had YOU read what I said, you would have seen that I quoted a certain part of his post which was unnecessary and offensive. Go back and read what I said AJC: my point was that TCPeppy made a general statement about Russia being evil, and statements like that are against the rules, if you didn't know.

The Counter Point is for discussing topics and your opinions, not for stating that an entire country has "an evil streak". I don't expect all the members here to fully get it, so to clarify, that's what my beef was. Do you understand now?

I've stomped down on all topics that have undertones like this, and personally, I found this statement of an evil streak really inappropriate for a topic that's to discuss history of certain figures. You don't deem an entire country evil based on it's history.

your right, i'm sorry.

. It's an opinion, but a very crudely worded one with enough attitude to be insulting.

1. Respect people's opinions. No insults.

But I don't know if his statment is both defended by and violates this rule. While it might insult a nation, its also his opinion. A thing I belive he has the right too.

AJC, Redeemer's an admin. She knows what the counter point is all about.

Your view on this topic is too superficial. Try understanding her point first.

Ya...i'm really not argueing with red, or on anyones behalf. I'm just trying to get some clarification on what I can and can't do in here.

AND THIS IS ALL OF TOPIC, which i started. SO!

Is russia evil? i wouldn't say evil. But they arn't the most saintly nation either. They're leaders done alota bad stuff. Mostly Stalin, but not just him. There were a few good guys, but as a whole i wouldn't choose to live there.

[CrypticQuery]

Is russia evil? i wouldn't say evil. But they arn't the most saintly nation either. They're leaders done alota bad stuff. Mostly Stalin, but not just him. There were a few good guys, but as a whole i wouldn't choose to live there.

Take out Russia and Stalin and you've got a description for every single nation on the Earth. No country is inherently bad; groups of people that live inside of said country can be, however. It all really depends upon perspective.

-----

Also, better get all of the jokes out of my system;

Stop Putin ideas into their minds!

If you would quit Stalin we could get this done already!

Please Lenin me finish my terrible puns!

Stop Yeltsin!

You'd better study or you'll get low Marx!

Why is everyone Russian around?

:lol:

[Scourge]

Sovient Union: No more corrupt than the rest of the world, only they had a different way of doing things. The US didnt like this particular way of doing things. Now that the US came out on top after the collapse of the USSR, the US is basically on top of the world (not quite true anymore), and because most countries in the world do business with the US rather than the remains of the USSR, the US's Biases are now common belief. Common US belief during the cold war was that the US was good, the USSR was bad. ... If you managed to make sense of that, good for you, but there's a nugget of a point in there somewhere.

[Redeemer]

But I don't know if his statment is both defended by and violates this rule. While it might insult a nation, its also his opinion. A thing I belive he has the right too.

So by your logic, AJC, I can turn around and say "hey, Apartheid was actually a good idea", and no one can tell me off because it's my opinion and everyone should respect that? No. I think you're just reaching to the rules for some kind of support, but you're taking that particular one out of context. There are such things as offensive opinions, and this is why we moderate the Counter Point so heavily.

AJC, if you would like further clarification, please PM me. I will no longer keep this topic off of its main subject.

Scourgeclaw has some pretty damn good points there! And crazyfoo... I think my IQ just crawled out of my ear and plopped onto my shoulder in an attempt to escape your puns. XD

[DZComposer]

Communism cannot work without some form of democracy.

That said, there is a stage in Communist development called "Dictatorship of the Proletariat." This is the stage where Communism fails because this is the stage where greed and lust for power come in and corrupt everything.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is supposed to become a democratic institution, but the problem is the revolutionaries who gain power may be reluctant to give it up, as happened with Lenin, and others who aren't at the top desire to be, and do everything they can to get there, like Stalin. The USSR made no serious move to become democratic, instead it became damn-near an autocracy. It got better after Stalin, but those who succeeded him weren't very interested, at least until Gorbachev and his Perestroika movement, in lessening the absolute power of the so-called Communist party. In fact, Perestroika was probably TOO successful. It is arguably the reason for the USSR's collapse, though you'll never hear Reaganites admit that.

Anyway, you ask if the USSR was an evil empire. Funny thing is that Reagan the USSR evil when it was pretty much the beginning of the end of autocratic tyranny in Russia (though it seems to be returning with Putin, but that's a topic for another discussion).

Evil is a strong word, but it is also a word of subjective meaning. There is little doubt in my mind that the Soviets, at least in the early years, thought that their actions would eventually lead to Marx's communist utopia, but this would only happen because THEY were the only ones who could do it. Anyone who opposed them opposed the perfect world, and would need to be dealt with. Death matters not, as the ends justify the means.

Americans fear autocracy. This fear is ingrained in the very soul of American ideals. The founders lived under an autocratic Britain, and they saw how oppressive it could be, and they based the entire system of government on preventing autocracy. Much of the constitution is restricting things that make the executive branch all-powerful. You can't fund an army for more than two years. You can't jail people for expressing their opinion. You can't hold people without trial. Etc.

Communism was a scary thought for the elites. All their wealth and power would be gone under a communist system, and people were starting to listen to the communists on the street corner during the Great Depression. Stalin had just come to power, and gave those who opposed communism a weapon to combat it by becoming a brutal dictator.

Although we allied with the Soviets against the Nazis, it wasn't a friendship that would last. Even during the war the allies did not fully trust Stalin. After the war, the soviets began expanding. This caused the rise of the likes of Joseph McCarthy in the US and ushered-in an era of political repression in the US where you could be jailed for having a political idea (being a communist) or have your livelihood ruined because someone accused you of being a communist. The elites had their weapon, and they wielded it well. Until McCarthy got too full of himself and started accusing high-ranking generals of being communists. When that happened, his web of lies fell apart and he was disgraced. This would pave the way for much-needed social reforms under Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon (as much as I hate to add him to this list).

There was enough "evil" to go around. Sure, McCarthyism never sent anyone to a death camp, but it was a stain on the US and a betrayal of the country's fundamental values.

In the end, the cold war was about the tension between two polar-opposite, and deeply flawed, ideas on how to create the perfect world. A goal, that while unrealistic, is not evil at all.

[Robert Monroe]

So, are we talking about Russia as a whole? Or communism as an ideal? Or how it was implemented? Or the USSR as a whole? Or just its government? THIS THREAD CONFUSES ME.