Crime And Prevention.

[Vy'drach]

DZcomposer@ i thought he looked like if he were on durgs(illegal) AND lol he didn't know what he was doing!!! he plan everything. First he went online and got some weapons(two pistol and a M4 assault rifle) and a ballistic vest. Then got some smoke grenades(or something like that) and set explosive traps in his apartment. Yea, he sure didn't know what he was doing...

oh and yes that does sound like a good idea in portugal were they send them to jail and at the same time they get treatment. lol i understood you wrong DZ.

And not all people that sell drugs do them, some are in it for the money, which will not be tolerated by the law.

[Thu'um]

[media=]

oh good, i'm not alone

[Jo Jo SmoOth]

sorry guys can't view videos on 3ds. Can someone tell what's it about.

[ballisticwaffles]

Its the finding Nemo clip where Marlin comments on Squirts unintelligible sentance. They are commenting on how they dont understand your previous post.

[Jo Jo SmoOth]

oh.. well you see i can't reply on 3ds. DZ reply to me so i try to reply in a way, he said that the shooter didn't know what he was doing cause he had mental issues or something like that, and had the right not to die under law.

[Faisul]

Heartfelt condolences to the families of, friends of, and the victims themselves.

As for whether James Holmes is mentally ill or not, I can only refer to his Wikipedia page for anectodal evidence and the claims of his defense. It seems that if not clinically insane, he is certainly a very disturbed individual and I am in no way certain that the US prison system will ever be able to reform or otherwise rehabilitate this man, should the insanity plea be dismissed. As for the cause of such behaviour, I'm afraid I have no straight answer and only see a long list of contributing factors, where DZ's argument of socioeconomic factors play a significant part, but also important to discuss is the nature of a country's justice system. If a man or woman is jailed for some offense, the ultimate aim of this person's incarceration, traditionally, is to prevent him or her from breaking the law again. However, the US prison system as it currently stands does not seem to serve that function, as it appears to currently serve another function entirely. I am, myself, convinced that rehabilitation, not profitability of inmates, should be the end-goal of any period of incarceration. The statistics concerning recidivism in the US are troubling when evaluating the efficiency of the country's justice system.

[Thu'um]

If a man or woman is jailed for some offense, the ultimate aim of this person's incarceration, traditionally, is to prevent him or her from breaking the law again. However, the US prison system as it currently stands does not seem to serve that function, as it appears to currently serve another function entirely. I am, myself, convinced that rehabilitation, not profitability of inmates, should be the end-goal of any period of incarceration. The statistics concerning recidivism in the US are troubling when evaluating the efficiency of the country's justice system.

Even if the " da system broke" the first and most effective steps in fixing said problem is keeping people out of jail. Most People in jail have been there before, As the saying goes " it's easiest way to clim out of a hole, it to never fall into one." As for where profitability plays a part I fail to understand, only the people who service jails( guards, food services, ect.) make money. I recall a stat stating that our jails rack up an expense of 60 billion a year.

[Faisul]

Actually, ajc, the irony is that it isn't to the staff of a jail where most of the proceeds go in regards to these privatized correctional institutions, it's to the company that owns them. GEO group announced that they earned a net total of 21 million in the third quarter of 2011 alone. This is only one of a plethora of companies who own and manage these prisons. And you can bet that they rake in more than those 60 billion put together - with one of the largest prison populations on Earth, inmates play a noticeable part in providing hard labour for minimal pay, or pay that is docked for them to be able to call their families, buy meals that isn't thin gruel, and other basic comforts. Now, I can't for the life of me imagine why a company with a large pool of labour - one they simply need to clothe and feed, not pay - would want to let go of that labour. In fact, I'm inclined to believe they'd be actively interested in keeping them.

I recognize this is entering major tinfoil hat territory but it can't be understated that with the US government's policy of listening almost exclusively to the lobbying wing (many of which are major companies with a real stake in how national policy is shaped - preferably to serve their own economic interests) it would not be surprising that many of these institutions see so much recidivism simply because it isn't in the corporate overlord's interests to keep prisoners out of their jails. That, coupled with gang recruitment in prisons and the difficulty of finding honest work following a sentence, makes it quite clear that for perhaps the majority of inmates will simply keep doing criminal things.

As for staying out of jail, I dunno - maybe it's easy for you, but as DZ hinted to, when you simply do not earn enough to support yourself due to being a minority/mentally ill/whatever - a significant portion of the US population now - and steadily growing with increasing income inequality - prison populations are only gonna go up, up, up!

[sroberson]

I have always been absolutely baffled that someone could have stood up one day and said "Hey! You know what sounds great? Privatizing the prison system to people owning it will make money! That's right! They make money, off of misery in a sick society that they themselves can help create! How can you lose?!" It's like privatized rehabilitation homes that I have been fighting recently. It makes just about as much sense to me...their sole business is facilitating and extorting the evil that occurs in society. Why should they try to truly rehabilitate the people they make money off of? Make them worse for all they care! I will join Faisul in the tinfoil hat wearing club (that is if he considers himself among them). I have about no faith in the super wealthy of the United States having many decent standards and its about just trying to turn another dime. I am especially turned off by the fact that they control the government and have slowly made it illegal or at least not glamorous to partake in the society supposedly built on democracy (I look no further than the disenfranchisement of the Occupy movement that even the government undertook and the venomous words of Rush Limbaugh,http://www.politico....0712/78553.html l).

I recall a stat stating that our jails rack up an expense of 60 billion a year.

If I had to take a stab at this one I would suggest that they operate at the expense of the government who pays the companies to run these jails. That is where the 60 billion is coming from (the Fed), and furthermore going to (private prison companies). If it is in fact the companies reporting this loss, then they are probably lying through their teeth to get more money from the government as they lobby the media to scare the shit out of people to make their politicians give more money to the corrupt private prison business to "keep them safe"...because nothing works better on humans in general than the threat of danger to themselves.

Also, I present exhibit A on the freakshow of abusing and extorting the prison population that megawealthy individuals are just fine with regardless of the ridiculous semblance it has to endentured servitude or thinly veiled slavery :http://money.cnn.com....html?iid=HP_LN

As Faisul and DZ have suggested, the privatization of prisons is but one issue in the puzzle of correcting the penal system of the United States. The beginning really starts somewhere else, that way privatization is made less profitable. How about we start by selling less fear and hatred in the media (just this alone would do so many things I can't even begin to describe here)? Create a society where people don't feel the need to be criminals? Do something about the growing wealth gap and the development of segregated classes? Much of basic studies in sociology will suggest that criminology only occurs under the strain theory - that is members of society will attempt anything to reach and ends to their means if they can't do it the 'right' way. If you aren't offered the same opportunities that allow you some means of easily attaining your goals, then robbing that dude over there doesn't sound too bad. Also if you create gods among men wealth-wise, it just creates bigger idols for the plebians to aspire to and obviously fail to become (That's right, I suggest socialism and some level of income capping). I am under the belief that a purely capitalist system as cut throat as the US will perpetually have a prison problem.

[Faisul]

... I look no further than the disenfranchisement of the Occupy movement that even the government undertook...

Holy hell what a debacle that was. Not to say that Occupy didn't have its shortcomings and issues in regards to its leadership and agenda organisation (although the effort undertaken to direct it in at least a cursory way was very impressive) you can't help but marvel at the lengths certain media outlets *AWOOGA AWOOGA FOX NEWS AWOOGA* went to demonize them, as well as with the dogged determination many lawmakers and purported defenders of people's rights to live safe and unaccosted in the supposed beacon of democracy and freedom in the world (the po-po) pursued ways in which to more effectively tear-gas, pepper-spray, and throw (largely) peaceful protesters into the slammer for daring not to remain exclusively in a free speech zone a million miles away from where their protest might have mattered. Funny enough, when Tea Partiers show up with guns and thinly veiled threats of armed uprising, they are cheered on as true patriotic heroes â„¢ by certain media outlets *AWOOGA FOX NEWS*.

I'm slightly bitter about that, sorry for the derail.

Anyway, the above is what I see as a symptom of a long history of fierce individualism and libertarianism - not negative things in their own right, but negative when increasingly married with a growing contingent of institutionalized greed and corruption - that lead people to blame the individual rather than the system that creates the individual, and as Sroberson mentions, idolize the de-facto aristocracy for their role as 'job creators' and 'bootstrappers.' For sure, some people are certainly "born bad" in a sense, but most people fallen to crime would, had they enjoyed better opportunities, not fallen to crime. Sometimes they simply had no choice in order to survive, like people pressed into gangs for their own protection, or people who steal to feed themselves. What they do may be reprehensible, and I am not arguing that the vast majority of criminals is some species of noble thief or reluctant thug with a heart of gold - but with increased equity I am sure crime rates, violent or otherwise, would drop drastically, easy access to guns or no. And you don't exactly have to worship at the altar of *AWOOGA AWOOGA LENIN AWOOGA* in order to ensure equity in a free market economy either.

To start, it involves recognizing this:

As the stinking horseshit that it is.

[sroberson]

Oh I completely agree that some of the criticism that the Occupy movement received was well placed and they had their problems. But for them to be so disparaged upon was totally uncalled for. Their actions were labeled illicit when what they had to say was completely protected by the same freedom of speech that conservatives love to toss to protect anyone that venerates them (alright alright I guess liberals too). Where was the ACLU during all of this? Aren't they usually the protectors of American freedom even in the face of extreme negativity and criticism? We can protect the hate speech of a bunch of bigots who want to blame gays with the deaths of random people, but we can't allow people to try and protest a less than adequate system? I recall seeing some piece of legislature wandering around that actually was a funded program in the government to learn more about the Occupy movement in order to learn more about them and to either use them to further someone's political gain or to totally disenfranchise them. The notion that the government would waste money on pulling the strings on rights that they protect in order to make certain pencil necks more powerful sickened me.

See I got off on a tangent too XD

I was mostly alluding to the idea that by creating such idols and making them more and more powerful we have a greater "strain" to become like them, since every American since they were born have been told that they are capable of achieving anything they want. Their "American Dream". The grander the dream, the more unlikely one is to reach it. Frustrated people will resort to illicit activities to reach their means if they feel it is necessary. Doesn't help some of the megawealthy seem to think (and vocalize such beliefs) that it's a "might makes right" system where their wealth justifies and props up their supposed morality and strength of character, and everyone else not so wealthy can bugger off and are 'obviously' not as good.

I've always wondered to myself...how much wealth does one have to collect before they feel "comfortable". As in, at what level of income do you feel like you can acquire pretty much anything you could want? $1 million? $10 million?

Lol, Fox News...I was watching the local broadcast of it yesterday and was 'surprised' (jokingly) to hear so much reporting of death and destruction (6 shootings and three arson cases within a half hour!). As I mentioned, the media needs to be less driven on selling fear. The implications...but hey, i'll bet even the oil company has reasons to sell fear to Americans. White flight to suburbia helps keep them in business!

By the way, Faisul, I loved the horn sound effects you put around those keywords , but what's up with Trademarking "patriotic heroes"?

[Vy'drach]

as well as with the dogged determination many lawmakers and purported defenders of people's rights to live safe and unaccosted in the supposed beacon of democracy and freedom in the world (the po-po) pursued ways in which to more effectively tear-gas, pepper-spray, and throw (largely) peaceful protesters into the slammer for daring not to remain exclusively in a free speech zone a million miles away from where their protest might have mattered.

Are you referring to the thing out here where people protesting the police officers on the anniversary of a supposed wrongful police shooting left the grounds of the Police HQ and went to the parking lot of Disney World in a near riot, putting people, including children and elderly, who had nothing to do with any of it, at risk, and then the SWAT appeared then and only then in full riot gear to disperse the crowd and ended up arresting, and contrary to the claims of wrongful and indefinite detainment, quickly releasing several of the protestors?

[sroberson]

Are you referring to the thing out here where people protesting the police officers on the anniversary of a supposed wrongful police shooting left the grounds of the Police HQ and went to the parking lot of Disney World in a near riot, putting people, including children and elderly, who had nothing to do with any of it, at risk, and then the SWAT appeared then and only then in full riot gear to disperse the crowd and ended up arresting, and contrary to the claims of wrongful and indefinite detainment, quickly releasing several of the protestors?

I haven't heard that one before. Link to the article?

I think there are numerous other instances where the police unjustly (subjectively anyways) served justice on members of the Occupy movement using the examples that Faisul provided. I think a couple of the major ones was the police violently suppressing the Occupy protest occurring in Brooklyn and the many cases of them administering pepper spray on people already submitting (there is actually a very popular meme on one of them).

[Vy'drach]

This wasn't against members of the Occupy movement, these were people who were protesting unmolested outside the Police HQ about a supposed unjust police shooting a while back, on the anniversary of the shooting, then they went to Disneyland and then the SWAT came out and dispersed them, then they were claiming that members were arrested and being detained illegally, when in fact they had already been released while these claims were going.

As for the article on it, I don't have it on hand.

[Faisul]

... I think a couple of the major ones was the police violently suppressing the Occupy protest occurring in Brooklyn and the many cases of them administering pepper spray on people already submitting...

Yeah, that was the one. At least the vast majority got out of the clink after a few hours; haven't heard of any long-ish incarcerations from anything else but that dumb bridge-blowing plot that was in the news a half-year or so ago.

@Sroberson, the trade-marking thing - isn't patriotism essentially a quantifiable value in American popular culture? Like, this pro athlete has 122 Patriot Points, this decorated veteran has 240, etc. etc. Soon you'll be rolling out with a patriotism points card (redeemable at McDonalds, of course).

Nah, I'm just being a bit of a dick.

To actually contribute to the discussion, here's a fun article describing how the US surpassed the Soviet Union in incarcerations per year in 1998!

And speaking of the logical extreme of blaming an individual for actions that may or may not be out of their own control, here's a charming documentary about literal juveniles being on death row in Texas! Yowza!

[Thu'um]

To be honest its late here, and despite my best attempts to read and comprehend what is written here i have failed horribly.

So the sevices for prisoners are owned privately. Yep thats a problem. I would fix it......

Moving on down the line, What makes you think staying out of jail is easy for me? My school had fights everyday. We had two murders, 1 in school. And just to add effect a bunch of kids were caught having sex on school property, During Hours XD. Back to the point, keeping the generation to come out of jail is the best step. So obvilously the ability to succed is an excelent mototavator, like dz stated a growth in middle class would do wonders. How is that to come about? Well Education of course. Anyway I'd also like to clairfy what alot of people call a blatent sign of racisem in th US. Our large African American population that resides in jail. Why such a large precentage Compared to whity(caucasain) Culture has been my biggest lead. Where i live the african american population is signifigant. I was friends with alot of them, and being a no-bullshit person( hehe not who i am online) i asked them why they acted up so much. Why the had to fight in gym class or swear at the teachers. And the simply responded" it what you do when your black." I didn't like that answer. its not a good answer. they wouldn't talk about it anymore, but i brought it up with my friend when we were alone he stated " Its like we feel we most fill the role" or somthing of the sort. I still don't understand. But there is somthing there that is causing a problem, becuase if african americans were at standered levels on inprisonment, would our jails really be at such alarmingly high levels?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/US_incarceration_timeline-clean-fixed-timescale.svg now its time for a cool graph!

yes so ironicly around 1980 this war on drugs was really began. If the its possible it could create such a flux i'm not sure.

Anyhow its likly None of this made sense, and i shouldn't post this late at night. I apologize for any spelling errors or what not.

[sroberson]

I don't think it was suggested that staying out of jail is easy. It's all a matter of your environment. In an environment saturated by delinquency and illicit behavior one is more likely to fall victim to it (but this could be attributed to peer pressure as opposed to simply societal strain). This pursuit of bringing everyone up to the middle class is noble, but not possible relatively. As the middle class rises, the wealthy rise even higher meaning that the goals for the "less fortunate" are still incredibly out of reach and provoke extreme actions to try and attain their goals. It probably wouldn't be as bad crime-wise since people would have more, but it would still be there as everyone has to keep up with the Jonses. Education is an admirable goal, but it has to be a good education - something I feel has really fallen apart when the public education system got their feelings hurt about minorities lagging behind on performance. Having a watered down education won't help in the real world and an increasingly global economy that permeates even how we apply for jobs.

As far as a large portion of African Americans in jail, this can be attributed to many things that go beyond what I can even wager at - but generally it could simply be because of racism. If not now, then its a result of the many years of slavery and oppression. I can't dive too much further here without sounding terribly racist and I can't verify any thoughts I have since I don't have any real knowledge in modern anthropology...but it still falls on the idea that as a whole, African Americans suffer from having less opportunities as Caucasians. As a collective they feel more stress and pressure to attain goals and they have a harder time than others to achieve - all the more incentive to do more illicit acts to either become accepted into a social group of similarly disparaged upon humans or to try and attain a means to an end. As far as who is really to blame for the lack of opportunities is up in the air though. It would be interesting to know what causes this "African American culture" that we can all stereotype and has some validity to it. Big chicken or the egg issue there....Rap music cause it? Probably not. Affirmative Action? Maybe? Lingering racism? Most likely...but I am of the belief that some of what we call racism is founded on some truth even if its not a very cohesive one.

By the way, the city I live in is about 45% African American so, I am not some sterilized lofty white dude studying it from suburbia. I hear it outside my window at least once a day...but I will admit the attitudes down here in the south are pretty different from the north.

Anyways...since the war on drugs is a pretty important factor of why the prison population is so stupid high. How do you feel about the illegalization of marijuana? That's a pretty hot issue that actually has been gaining some attention lately...at least here in Arkansas anyways. 75,000 in support of putting it on the ballot for medicinal use.

Almost forgot!

@Sroberson, the trade-marking thing - isn't patriotism essentially a quantifiable value in American popular culture? Like, this pro athlete has 122 Patriot Points, this decorated veteran has 240, etc. etc. Soon you'll be rolling out with a patriotism points card (redeemable at McDonalds, of course).

Nah, I'm just being a bit of a dick.

Lol, its all good I figured you meant something like that anyways. I actually have had a bit of a pet peeve with labeling people "patriots" or "heroes"...I think after a while people forgot what the words meant and started assigning them to anyone and everyone, posthumously or alive, to try and sugar coat things. If the words are used to define anyone just to paint the world rosy, then eventually the words will mean nothing to those whom actually deserve it.

[Faisul]

As the middle class rises, the wealthy rise even higher...

My impression is that the diametrically opposite has happened - the middle class has fallen while the wealthy have grown beyond obscenely rich. Since we apparently love graphs in this topic, have another slice of numbers and lines going up and down;

Now this only takes into account the income disparity between the 'average' worker and the 'average' CEO of a given company; we haven't even touched the ridiculous tax cuts that's been going on over the past 25 or so years that have mainly benefited the already loaded. Still, settling on a 200:1 ratio in 2008 is pretty damn impressive. Ayn Rand would shed a single reptilian tear for such glorious progress! This is already a pretty hard kick in the teeth for that whole socioeconomic factor thing going on and entire families plummeting into near-poverty virtually overnight isn't going to provide a stable environment for raising kids at all, so the US has a lot of challenges facing its future if this continues.

Education is an admirable goal, but it has to be a good education - something I feel has really fallen apart when the public education system got their feelings hurt about minorities lagging behind on performance.

I believe you're referencing Affirmative Action? I wouldn't say that's the biggest thing keeping the US educational system down - I mean, sure, some classrooms and courses may lag a bit from taking in students from inner city environments where families haven't had access to proper education since, well, ever, and are unable to support child students due to a lack of personal experience in education or a lack of money for resources like books, computer equipment et cetera but all in all I'd regard that as a relatively egalitarian thing to do, I mean, offering opportunities to those who previously had none, nor any chance of having none. Because of the r-word. What I think you guys need to consider is to take some of that insane amount of money being blown on, I don't know, bombs and superPACs and strollers, put it into subsidizing more educational programs and community improvement projects and move the massive Texan printing industry to somewhere else not so affected by dubious scientific rigour.

Oh yes, federal cuts on education and a lack of domestic industries for unskilled labour is gonna make it even harder to get work in the future due to a dwindling pool of graduates for white-collar work and growing lack of suitable blue-collar workplaces. Which leads to... more crime! Yay, it's like peeling away the layers of an onion, only it's getting progressively more rotten and maggot-infested as we penetrate its soggy core.

As far as a large portion of African Americans in jail, this can be attributed to many things that go beyond what I can even wager at - but generally it could simply be because of racism... African Americans suffer from having less opportunities as Caucasians... It would be interesting to know what causes this "African American culture" that we can all stereotype and has some validity to it. Big chicken or the egg issue there....Rap music cause it? Probably not. Affirmative Action? Maybe? Lingering racism? Most likely...but I am of the belief that some of what we call racism is founded on some truth even if its not a very cohesive one.

I'm pretty sure it's just old white folks being terribly racist. African-Americans and other minorities being unable to get a fair shake in courts is an endemic problem throughout modern history and it hasn't ended just because Obama's the president.

As for "African American" "gangsta" subcultures, I don't know, when illicit activities have been virtually the only means of earning a living for a sizeable group of urban/former/current ghetto inhabitants over the past thirty years due to, eh, cuts, I guess? Then you can betcha that it sticks, the life, the mentality, the subculture, everything. While I'm sure some pop-cultural osmosis has made the 'life' an appealing thing to some 'outsiders' it was not the subculture that caused gangsta, but the environment gangsta evolved in. An environment of crippling racism, no less. And it's not just lingering; it's out there, and it sounds like you got it right in your back yard, Srobertson.

EDIT: Actually, I was wrong! Turns out that 'thug lyfe' is majorily a fiction propagated by record labels, artists and movies, especially as it appears in most forms of 'gangsta' media. The reality of the situation is much more complex and diverse, and while there are undoubtedly some african-americans all up in the whole gangsta fantasy, the major consumers and life-stylers on the scene are middle class suburban white kids. Holy shit!

And no, please, not that it's really on topic but to suggest that racism is based on some truth, no matter how little you may give the impression you think it is, racism is a tall shit cake with layers of fuzzy thinking, terrible science, and a lot of xenophobia that stretches way back. It was used as an excuse to lord over people perceived as less human than the dominant group and it's nothing else but an endlessly gushing hose of fecal matter that spews its crap all over everything it can touch. And there's no reverse racism - it's still just racism. And when a minority group feels like the majority doesn't give a damn about them, well, they might just do something about it.

'Sup?

Anyways...since the war on drugs is a pretty important factor of why the prison population is so stupid high. How do you feel about the illegalization of marijuana? That's a pretty hot issue that actually has been gaining some attention lately...at least here in Arkansas anyways. 75,000 in support of putting it on the ballot for medicinal use.

Yeah, this is a pretty open shut case to me. You wouldn't even need to legalize anything, just ramp down this increasingly frightening military-police insanity you've got going on this. Creatures like 'Darth Sheriff' Joe 'Middle-Aged and Balding Panzer Police' Arpaio absolutely thrive on the environment of fear and misinformation that have surrounded issues concerning drugs since Big Alcohol staged their nasty little coup back in the early 20th century. What really kicked this particular little crusade into overdrive was inarguably the growing militarisation of the police forces since SWAT, 9/11 and onwards, the engenderment of an 'us vs them' mentality in the US police forces and the racketing up of ridiculous prison sentences for relatively minor cannabis-related offences to make sure the prisons are nice and stuffed. You'd still need to combat the importation of illicit substances from 'El Cartel' and the bikers up north, but you don't need a fucking tank to do that, surely. Opening up for medicinal use of cannabis and a genuine effort to combat the decades of propaganda surrounding the drug would, in this case, just be the tip of the iceberg.

Ultimately you also have to take a good hard look at your own police forces as well. I won't go into it in a major way here but the constant trickle of news regarding fatal police shootings and questionable follow-ups from watchdog agencies, coupled with really light sentences and punishments for abusive police, really cements a general impression for a large amount of people who are not criminals, the police are simply not trusted to protect them; cases where people have called the police for help and gotten beat due to some misunderstanding or other, police siccing dogs on bystanders during protests, the absolutely abhorrent history of police corruption in Miami, the list goes on - many people, minorities in particular, fear the police. And not in a 'oh let's not do anything bad here lads the Constable's gonna get us for it' but an honest to god fear for their lives should they be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I can't help but feel that guns have something to do with th-

STAY ON TARGET

Yeah, that's another huge nest of vipers to discuss with you guys I feel, as I don't want to deny you your history of living off the land and defending yourselves with firearms and whatnot, and the practical application of firearms in hunting and the like, but you cannot possibly deny that with the spate of recent deadly shooting sprees and whatnot, the nature of crime in the US would be drastically different of gun laws were, if not stricter, more regulate - DON'T HIT ME

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