Mann vs. Machine community guide

[Milkyway64]

YEAH ANOTHER GUIDE TOPIC FROM THE GENERAL BUT WITH A TWIST.

You, yes, YOU can write in this to contribute and share with others effective strategies, tricks, and ideas. So why did I start this as opposed to talking to DZ about making a pinned variant? Simple. I hit a realization tonight and wanted to help fellow soldiers on our server. But first, have a mostly empty skeleton of the guide:

General Tips:

Maps and Missions:

Class specifics: Scout

Class specifics: Soldier

Overveiw:

Soldier is a main offensive class in TF2. He is good at fighting other classes and makes a good medic buddy- you know what, we all know the game well enough by now that I'm sure you can figure out how each class works on a basic level. More advanced tricks are to be found in another guide, but let's focus entirely around Mr. Doe's performance in Mann vs. Machine. I'll give the short version and long version.

Short version is Soldier kind of sucks at vanquishing the metal menace.

Long version is Soldier kind of sucks at vanquishing the metal menace, BUT.

BUT. There is hope. There's another half to that statement, and that is "at first." And it's because of this, that most soldiers I've seen play in the mode do not pull their weight. Frankly, on any mission past the three normal mode ones on each map, Soldier is -hard- to play effectively. There's a few reasons for this.

First: Soldier is not, and was never, meant to partake in extended combat. Mann vs Machine is a brutal, relentless onslaught of mechanical terrors. Sooner rather than later, Soldiers must spend a long time to reload, and even further, find ammo to reload WITH. 24 rockets go -quick- when the fight nary ends.

Second: Soldier is, contrary to popular belief, not that great at handling groups in most situations. Rocket splash isn't that big, and your damage drops rapidly the further a target is from your explosion, as well as how far YOU are from your explosion. So unless you go toe to toe with 8 mechanical soldiers at once, your splash damage will be chipping away 40's at best. Certainly not the stopping power one would like from a man holding a ROCKET LAUNCHER.

Lastly, you are... not as durable as you'd think. In fact, with 8 miniguns, rocket launcher, grenade launchers, ANYTHING aimed at you en masse, your 200 HP suddenly feels like this;

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So you can just forget about making a solid, beefy frontline tank.

So with all these depressing points, what can you do? Simple. But also, not so simple. You MAKE yourself worth something. This, indeed, is where soldier players can go wrong.

---

First, let's look at loadouts. I'm not gonna cover every option, just those I've personally experimented with, seen used, or just have an opinion on.

-Primaries-

First off, don't use the cow mangler. Please. Pretty please? No. I see you griping. Stop it. Infinite ammo is NOT worth the complete removal of your lifeline; crits. Instead, stock seems to be the way to go, though there's nothing horribly wrong with Black Box. Beggar's Bazooka is also an option for the experienced soldier, but really, I find it to make Soldier EVEN HARDER to play in the early game.

-secondaries-

I'm gonna be frank. If you are not using buff banner, very kindly press , and then click on that dude with the eyepatch. The ONLY excuse is using the Righteous Bison.

Seriously, without a buff banner, you are pretty much a dumbed down demoman. Demo does that whole boom-explodey thingy MUCH better than you can, and a shotgun isn't going to help that at all. Nor are gunboats. Nor is anything. Your only hope of actually being an incredible asset to the team over the Scottsman is being able to make your 5 buddies slightly more effective at their own job, and this should be your main focus. Even sentry guns will benefit from the buff.

If going bison (and really, you shouldn't unless you have a good reason to) then just pew pew at bad guys and watch numbers go up.

-melee-

As much as I think the Disciplinary Action is the greatest weapon to grace TF2, unless you REALLY think the speed boost on allies will buy you that ONE second needed to stop the bomb, go equalizer. Yeah, the damage one. Not that COWARD'S TOOL.

Reason being equalizer will prove extremely handy versus tanks. Yeah, that's about it.

--

So really, you loadout should be rocket launcher/black box, buff banner, and equalizer. You're one step closer to effectiveness. Question now is, how to build these items?

Really, you don't. One boon of Soldier is with this loadout, you don't have much to worry about in the way of how to go. Buff banner has one upgradable option that should be left for mid game (it's important, but for the early game you should only use it for yourself and share only with an engie or heavy.) and equalizer only has swing speed to look at. Naturally, this should be leveled only when tanks start to be a problem.

That leaves the rocket launcher, character, and canteens for your more extensive options.

And let's not forget, soldier sucks. The quickest way to fixing this would be to upgrade your primary. Here's how you should do it.

Never start with damage or clip size. It seems like the easiest way around our woes, but it isn't. This is partially why you took buff banner. Remember what I said about damage falloffs? That's the cool thing about crits and minicrits. They don't have that shit. Meaning, if you fire a buffed rocket from across the map, it'd do a solid 100-ish damage to EVERYTHING its AoE touches. Considering the non-boosted variety would dent your enemies for 15, this is a MASSIVE boon.

There's one problem. You have to actually charge the thing up with your pitiful damage. This simply won't do. This problem, however, is remedied with teamwork. Ah, yes. That word that is in the title of the game, but rarely actually considered inside it. You need the help of other classes. In order of preference:

Medic. He only needs to share a precious second or two of his kritzkrieg with you. All it takes is two, sometimes one critical rocket to instantly charge your rage. This is best done immediately following your last rage, to maximize damage output.

Sniper: Jarate. Enjoy minicritting a crowd a few times and getting a full rage bar.

Scout: Marked for Death. Be it Fan of War or sandman upgrade, target who he marks as much as you can to build up.

And of course, random criticals of your own work too, but are not to be relied on.

Now you see why you NEED buff banner. It is, indeed, the only way you can do the damage you feel you should be doing, while at the same time turbo charging the other damage dealers on the team. They need to help you to help them, though. In turn, you must help them to help you.

Right. Upgrades. You need money. Get EVERY last dollar you can get your hands on, you greedy son of a bitch, and make the scout help too. Soldier upgrades are semi expensive and you need a lot of them. You need a lot of them, and in a certain order. You should always, always, always buy a level in life steal first thing, even if using black box. This will keep you alive and potentially even overhealed without the need of a medic, which is good. A dead soldier is a bad soldier, and a bad soldier has no buffs to give, as thoroughly explained already. The remaining money should either be saved or put into firing speed.

Your 7 options for leveling are said life steal and firing speed, as well as reload speed, rocket speed, damage, clip size, and max ammo. Over the course of the game, you should prioritize upgrades in this order;

Max reload speed ASAP. This is the single most important thing you can do. It solves almost all of your problems to varying degrees, but most notably, your ability to deal with multiple enemies. At max, holding down M1 is almost equivalent to firing rockets nonstop at the normal frequency, and letting the reload go all the way puts you at full in VERY short order. This ensures you always have the means to fight off attackers, especially in a pinch. This ensures you can throw out even more boosted rockets be it from your own buff or medic, meaning more triple digit numbers floating above the head of the giant heavy bearing down on you and your buddies.

Next, go for firing speed. This does what the above does, only to a lesser extent. Thus, maxing is not necessary, but 2 levels at least are nice. By now, you should be able to vomit up rockets very quickly, and this is exactly what you want for reasons mentioned. More rage building, better potential to take advantage of any boosts put on yourself. However, your low ammo pool is even less impressive now that you are blowing your 24 rockets off rapidly. Your options from here get a bit more free form.

First, do you have an engie or large ammo box near your preferred position that no one else is using? If yes, it may be a good idea to use them and invest in a damage upgrade. If no, put at least one level in max ammo, and then go for a damage upgrade. Or, if you need more spam, get a clip upgrade. What's important is you only get one of each.

Your RL stats should look like this:

1 damage

0-1 clip size

0-1 ammo capacity

max reload speed

2-max firing speed

1 life steal

0 projectile speed

And this is sufficient. This is all you need to hold your own.

Next, get one level or both in buff banner. If you do not take the second level, make plans to do so very soon. Now, you have a few options based on situation. The most useful to least;

Kritz canteens. With your rapid fire launcher, you can easily put out 3000+ damage per charge. This is very, very significant, and helps you take part in big boss battles. Be sure to keep the DPS rolling by popping your buff banner after. (Note: in a pinch, even before reaching full build, you may wish to grab one of these just to make it through a clutch situation. Be diligent!)

+1 on life steal. Naturally, this keeps you alive a bit more, and remember the golden rule: a dead soldier is a bad soldier.

+1-2 on damage. Stronger crockets!

+1-2 on clip size. 8-10 rockets per clip is pretty rad, but not terribly necessary.

The mission should be over before anything further can be really bought, but if you have the funds, throw them to whatever except projectile speed. Projectile speed is worthless and never worth it, your enemies move at a snail's pace and predictably, you should be used to the default rocket speed anyway as far as prediction goes.

I left out resistances and abilities. The reason for this is simple; you can't afford them. Regen barely helps in the way making your offense not suck does, and damage resistances, while nice, shouldn't be worried about too much. The idea is you should be out of danger as much as possible, using boosted rockets to stay safe and at range, racking up HP on kills. And don't even bother with movement speed, you have rocket jumps. Use them.

Other than this, it all comes down to knowing your enemy and teammates. Get skillful. Make your shots land. Stay alive. Know you are a valuable glass cannon. Treat your rage as you would an ubercharge. Support your buddies and realize almost all of your damage is going to come in bursts from critboosts.

Class specifics: Pyro

Class specifics: Demo

Class specifics: Heavy

Class specifics: Engie

Class specifics: Medic

Class specifics: Sniper

Class specifics: Spy

Debate and add as you will, gentlemen.

[psy_commando]

If you allow me I'd like to add my opinion on soldier loadout.

Well, first I want to say that my usual soldier loadout disobey every single one of the tips mentioned up there

Not that I think Milky's advice's not a good advice, but I personally just seem to work better with this loadout. Here's my opinion on my loadout, and what I concluded from using it.

Here's my usual loadout :

- Cow Mangler

- Shotgun or bison

- Escape plan

I must say I've been pretty successful with this loadout, racking up over 50 kills per game. I'm a very aggressive soldier, and often completely ignore the possibility of certain death, just to nuke a bunch of bots carrying the bomb ..

Since I don't live that long, its very important to me to deliver a constant stream of damages as fast as I can, which the stock rocket launcher has a hard time doing, especially with its very limited ammo and magazine size. The main reason I use the cow mangler, is probably because it has the highest number of shots then all the other launchers , which mean that magazine size upgrade's going to give you much more extra shots before having to reload. Quantity over quality ! Plus, you won't fall to the temptation of upgrading your ammo count, and thus have more $ for more important stuff ! Another advantage, is the smaller but still reasonable splash, it helps protect against self-damages when dealing with fast mover, or close targets. There are a few disadvantages though, like mentioned above, the cow mangler never ever crits or mini-crits. In the first waves, you might struggle a little with a very slightly upgraded mangler, and get stuck reloading often, especially in higher difficulty, however the shotgun can help with that. Also the mangler does a little less damage than the stock rocket launcher (which can be fixed with a damage upgrade). Also its not as effective on giants and tanks, but it still does the job.

Also I'm not a fan of crits in this mode, its too random, and I can pretty much match the extra damage done by a lucky critical with my high number of extra shots. Plus if there's a buff banter soldier activating around, you can always switch to your shotgun and rain mini-crits everywhere. However, if I have access to a kritzkrieg medic, the mangler will take a back seat then

I use the shotgun as a backup weapon, when there's no time to reload, or when I use the stock rocket launcher and run out of ammo. What good are buff banter's mini-critz if you're out of rockets ? Sure, it helps your teammates, but still, the soldier is usually one of the main damage dealer on the team. And the soldier is so slow when not rocket jumping, that by the time you find ammo some scout bot you could have shot with your shotgun got to the hatch with the bomb !

And finally, the escape plan. Honestly, I could also use the equalizer, its just that usually when I'm about to die, I usually want more to run to the nearest healthkit, rather than leeroy jenkins into bots. We wouldn't have that problem anyways if Valve didn't suddenly decides to make the equalizer 2 different weapons for no reasons..

And here are a few more genral things, these are by no means absolute rules, just some thing I figured out while playing :

- Rocket jumping to dive bomb enemies isn't as efficient as in the regular game, bots can air shot you with both hands in their noses, especially, soldiers, demoman, heavies, scouts, and snipers.

- Drawing enemy fire away from sentries, medics, and engies is a pretty good idea, and might make a big difference , even though you'll probably die, at least you'll have bought some time for the sentry to mow down more bots.

- Against larger bots, try to make them jump back with your rocket's blast, or send them into a pit on coaltown, or even just down a slope, so their pathfinding make them take huge detours, you'll buy your allies some precious time, careful with pyros though, they tend to fly forward and roast you.

- When swarmed by melee scouts, rocket jump away asap!

- Try to keep your team informed of what's going on around you. More often than not, teams get scattered all over the battlefield, all dealing with problems of their own. And knowing that some scout just killed you and is almost to the bomb hole, while the rest of the team is beating up the tank, or fending off another wave can pretty much change the outcome of the game !

- The direct hit isn't all that useful, maybe only if facing lots of giants or tanks, or if you have godlike aim. Chances are you'll get overrun though.

Anyways, do what you want with this, take it or leave it, its up to you. :)

[Vy'drach]

And finally, the escape plan. Honestly, I could also use the equalizer, its just that usually when I'm about to die, I usually want more to run to the nearest healthkit, rather than leeroy jenkins into bots. We wouldn't have that problem anyways if Valve didn't suddenly decides to make the equalizer 2 different weapons for no reasons..

Valve didn't "suddenly" anything with that. I waited for damn near a year for it to be split from when it was revealed they were doing that.

[psy_commando]

Valve didn't "suddenly" anything with that. I waited for damn near a year for it to be split from when it was revealed they were doing that.

Well, since I didn't really play or follow tf2 that much before, it was pretty sudden to me.

[!Corgi]

That's enough about soldiers.

Silly Furries, This is EngieDefence 2!

AKA Stop all putting your turrets in one spot you n00b and auto win

["User"]

Well, since I didn't really play or follow tf2 that much before, it was pretty sudden to me.

Yeah, Valve had them split in Beta for quite some time.

[Milkyway64]

stuff

But lol srsly, let me rephrase that in a way without 60's spiderman assholery.

Er. Wait.

Anyway, your reasoning for a lot of this is sort of backwards and crashes into itself. Also assumes a lot of situational team comp and again, absolutely every job you described is better handled by a demo. Maybe I should reiterate that whole damage fall off thingy, which demomen do not have.

Distance between rocket and rocketman (see: you) = less and less damage

less and less damage = less and less dead robots

less and less dead robots = the reason you only get 50 kills per game, rather than the 100-150 you should get otherwise, with even more assists

Trouble is you have to be close for unboosted rockets to maintain their damage, and being close means you are right where everything will tear you to shreds.

This may be easier to break down piece by piece.

I must say I've been pretty successful with this loadout, racking up over 50 kills per game. I'm a very aggressive soldier, and often completely ignore the possibility of certain death, just to nuke a bunch of bots carrying the bomb ..

Since I don't live that long, its very important to me to deliver a constant stream of damages as fast as I can, which the stock rocket launcher has a hard time doing, especially with its very limited ammo and magazine size. The main reason I use the cow mangler, is probably because it has the highest number of shots then all the other launchers , which mean that magazine size upgrade's going to give you much more extra shots before having to reload. Quantity over quality !

Thing ultimately is, you shouldn't be doing suicide dives. That works in the normal game where taking a medic with you to the grave is game changing, but not in MvM where staying power is the name of the game. You understand this, because you go on to mention higher clip size keeping you in the fight longer.

Nice theory, except for the part where it isn't.

Mangler has all of one shot over stock.

Mangler will never have more than one shot over the stock at any time, since clip upgrades are not proportional. Meaning stock launcher will go 4-6-8-10-12 with upgrades, and mangler will go 5-7-9-11-13. The "much more rockets" gets less and less noticeable, and as each shot does less damage, you are actually losing effective DPS.

And no, buying an all expensive damage upgrade doesn't negate that, as you are still trading away the invaluable ability to crit and minicrit away for 1 more rocket.

Plus, you won't fall to the temptation of upgrading your ammo count, and thus have more $ for more important stuff ! Another advantage, is the smaller but still reasonable splash, it helps protect against self-damages when dealing with fast mover, or close targets. There are a few disadvantages though, like mentioned above, the cow mangler never ever crits or mini-crits. In the first waves, you might struggle a little with a very slightly upgraded mangler, and get stuck reloading often, especially in higher difficulty, however the shotgun can help with that. Also the mangler does a little less damage than the stock rocket launcher (which can be fixed with a damage upgrade). Also its not as effective on giants and tanks, but it still does the job.

So wait. Basically, your reasoning for having the mangler is easier early game, with not needing to spend money on some of the ammo upgrades, but the trade off is having... a harder early game because you didn't take ammo upgrades, while fucking over your late game utility by being laughably weak vs giants, tanks, and the like? Sounds a lot like you just liked cow mangler in the main game (and it's good there, not the best but has its place) and don't really wanna switch away. Same deal with Escape Plan, but I'll get to that later.

Also I'm not a fan of crits in this mode, its too random, and I can pretty much match the extra damage done by a lucky critical with my high number of extra shots.

Your all of one damage neutered extra shot.

Plus if there's a buff banter soldier activating around, you can always switch to your shotgun and rain mini-crits everywhere. However, if I have access to a kritzkrieg medic, the mangler will take a back seat then

This relies on a soldier being a better team player, and if this indeed is the case, it's a wasted effort because you can't even use your big damage dealer and instead must use the shotgun, which suffers from damage falloff more than the rocket launcher since its damage is based on pellets. You have almost no damage output and no utility to make up for it.

In case it wasn't clear by now, I'm trying to emphasize crits and minicrits on the rocket launcher are not only helpful, but essential to making Soldier even half-useful over the other big damage dealers because of just how much Soldier is screwed over in MvM's design.

I use the shotgun as a backup weapon, when there's no time to reload, or when I use the stock rocket launcher and run out of ammo.

This is why reload speed is the first thing you get, and why you use ammo boxes and dispensers to stay stocked up in a safe defensive position.

What good are buff banter's mini-critz if you're out of rockets ?

What good is a rocket without minicrits? And what good is a player if he is so unnattentive he indeed runs out of rockets?

Sure, it helps your teammates, but still, the soldier is usually one of the main damage dealer on the team.

It helps your team, which is essential, and false. Soldier does peanuts for damage unless boosted. I have explained why at least twice.

And the soldier is so slow when not rocket jumping, that by the time you find ammo some scout bot you could have shot with your shotgun got to the hatch with the bomb !

Chasing the bomb scout is not your job. Losing track of the bomb is bad practice, too. And if a piddly scout got through the defense while outlined with the bomb, you probably aren't going to win no matter WHAT loadout you use.

And finally, the escape plan. Honestly, I could also use the equalizer, its just that usually when I'm about to die, I usually want more to run to the nearest healthkit, rather than leeroy jenkins into bots. We wouldn't have that problem anyways if Valve didn't suddenly decides to make the equalizer 2 different weapons for no reasons..

So right after condemning running to ammo kits to keep your weapon stocked and explaining that your entire strategy revolves around reckless nuking, your choice of melee is specifically chosen to stall out your life and run to a medkit that will take your attention away from that theoretical bomb carrying scout. As opposed to possibly cover for your inability to deal with tanks or something actually useful like that.

At the end of the day the biggest problem with the loadout and build is it sounds like you're trying too hard to lonewolf things and spread all your stuff out rather than have faith that your team can cover your weaknesses. The end result is you end up being good at absolutely nothing and wholly outclassed. Sentries and scouts can get the scout bots, for instance. You don't need to pull out your shotgun and go on a hunt when you are supposed to be taking on the bigger threats. But you can't do that because you have no damage and no means to make up for it with crit canteens and the like.

It all kinda falls apart.

[psy_commando]

Ok. I might be stupid, maybe, *snort* maybe.. And yeah I admit that I'm not good in debates, I can't organize my ideas properly and I tend to destroy my own arguments. And I'll admit also that some things I said earlier weren't accurate or true.

But some of the stuff you said isn't true or accurate either.

Oh, and excuse me for the lack of mean image macro, I find those to be kinda rude. Funny no ?

First, lets clear up a few things. I said this was from my own experience with the mangler. You probably already saw, since we played together, I usually run alongside the bot herd and shoot them. I'm not like sniping the bots from one end of the map to the other.

Then, I totally suck at demoman, I don't care if it will do a better job, I'll just mess it up.

Next, damage falloff eh? Have you looked at how much falloff there is within 512 units from the target ? At distances closer than 512 units, the weapon produce 100% and over damages, up to 120% for launchers. ( http://wiki.teamfort...com/wiki/Damage )

Thing ultimately is, you shouldn't be doing suicide dives. That works in the normal game where taking a medic with you to the grave is game changing, but not in MvM where staying power is the name of the game. You understand this, because you go on to mention higher clip size keeping you in the fight longer.

How does staying power is the name of the game ? Could you give me some details, or examples ? Dying's only consequence is to have to go back where you were, and wait a short spawn time. At least as far as I know, maybe I'm wrong.

Nice theory, except for the part where it isn't.

^this == best argument ever

Mangler has all of one shot over stock.

Mangler will never have more than one shot over the stock at any time, since clip upgrades are not proportional. Meaning stock launcher will go 4-6-8-10-12 with upgrades, and mangler will go 5-7-9-11-13. The "much more rockets" gets less and less noticeable, and as each shot does less damage, you are actually losing effective DPS.

And no, buying an all expensive damage upgrade doesn't negate that, as you are still trading away the invaluable ability to crit and minicrit away for 1 more rocket

Last time I counted, I think there was 15 shots for the fully upgraded mangler. I'm not 100% percent sure though. But I counted 15 in this vid :

http://youtu.be/C-twK1v8X4Y?t=20m13s

You're right that the fully upgraded mangler will never match the shot per shot damage of the fully upgraded stock rocket launcher. And I was wrong also, the cow mangler does mini-crits, just use the buff banner with it and see for yourself, they also do it in the video above.

So wait. Basically, your reasoning for having the mangler is easier early game, with not needing to spend money on some of the ammo upgrades, but the trade off is having... a harder early game because you didn't take ammo upgrades, while fucking over your late game utility by being laughably weak vs giants, tanks, and the like? Sounds a lot like you just liked cow mangler in the main game (and it's good there, not the best but has its place) and don't really wanna switch away. Same deal with Escape Plan, but I'll get to that later.

Can you please indicate where I said the mangler made for an easier early game ? If I quote the quote you've used "In the first waves, you might struggle a little with a very slightly upgraded mangler"..

However, you're probably right about the mangler lacking power over the other launchers in late game scenarios.

And strangely enough, I don't use the mangler that often. You're right that I like it though :3 If you look on my profile on the SFO server statistics, my top weapon is the stock rocket launcher.

Chasing the bomb scout is not your job. Losing track of the bomb is bad practice, too. And if a piddly scout got through the defense while outlined with the bomb, you probably aren't going to win no matter WHAT loadout you use.

Yeah, its the job of the other guy, who thinks its the job of the other guy, and etc .. And yeah it happened a few times that a scout that got past us suddenly went for the bomb during an inattention period. We still won because someone took out the trash.

Your all of one damage neutered extra shot.

I'm talking about the maybe 10 other shots waiting in my upgraded mangler ? If you wish for a crit rocket in all of your 12 shots for the upgraded rocket launcher, you'll get maybe one, if you're lucky.

And yes you're right, the shotgun's not a good backup weapon in case of a soldier activating its buff banner nearby, the mangler is better suited for that job..

At the end of the day the biggest problem with the loadout and build is it sounds like you're trying too hard to lonewolf things and spread all your stuff out rather than have faith that your team can cover your weaknesses.

Isn't that called versatility ? And besides, what weakness does your team covers, any examples ? I'm just asking because I can't think of a good example, other that the medic healing others. I'm not trying to prove a point or anything.

The end result is you end up being good at absolutely nothing and wholly outclassed.

Yeah, I hear that a lot !

And yes, you're right about the equalizer being a better choice, especially against the tank. However you gotta hurt yourself before or it will do only about half the damage at full health. http://wiki.teamfort..._function_times

So there you go, looks like we were both wrong on a few things.

I skipped a few arguments that you made that were true, just because I don't want want to spend the night writing this.

I'll have to use the buff banner more often. Oh and looking forward to play again with you, so I can be good at absolutely nothing and lets not forget wholly outclassed

EDIT: Corrected a few dumb mistakes. I keep spelling the buff banner, buff banter for some reasons...

[Vy'drach]

[Fluxy]

First, lets clear up a few things. I said this was from my own experience with the mangler. You probably already saw, since we played together, I usually run alongside the bot herd and shoot them. I'm not like sniping the bots from one end of the map to the other.

Well, I remember playing with you too. I know I'm not great and I do a lot of mistakes, but I do understand some mechanics of this game, and the idea of how Mann Vs. Machine works, with some in game experience.

The idea here is really not a thread guide for the 'easy' levels, from what I gathered. Your idea of being very, very, aggressive can totally work, just, if you pull that in higher levels of the easy modes, or even Level One of the hard modes... You're sadly just going to be killed and only be a hinder to the team.

Then, I totally suck at demoman, I don't care if it will do a better job, I'll just mess it up.

Next, damage falloff eh? Have you looked at how much falloff there is within 512 units from the target ? At distances closer than 512 units, the weapon produce 100% and over damages, up to 120% for launchers. ( http://wiki.teamfort...com/wiki/Damage )

Alright, you're right on that. 512 units is also about... Like, one-and-a-half of the Pyro's Flame Thrower from What google told me what I remember. So if you're going to be close for normal soldiers, sure, you'll get a good 81 damage off on the little group you hit. Though, we have to remember this is a mode where you need to be doing as much as you possibly can for your team. Not including the possible crits that either a Canteen or Medic can give, if both Rocket Launchers only were to hit one target with each missile, using 100 missiles in total [Totally not the used amount in a game but this is to prove a point; The amount used is a lot higher as you know], that's a secured 900 extra damage already that you just provided for your team.

For one target. Adding this fact to the added idea of Splash Damage, Mini crits, and possible Crits from a source, you can easily see that this simple nine extra points of damage is a need for soldier, who typically is put in a bad spot on this game mode.

I can explain this one too. In an easier mode today, I played as Medic with the Kritzkreig, so my Ubers did not give invuln, and at that time, I couldn't give people my Canteen boost to allies because it cost too much for the upgrade at the time. We got hit by a big wave of bots, and a few people died. Only people surviving were a Sniper, Scout, and myself. We were going to be rushed, and inevitably lose, if it was not for -very- good coordination and use of Jarate between the Sniper and Scout. Had there been Spy support, one or two more soldiers and demomen, we surely would have lost, as the other three re-spawned -right- as it looked like we might have lost, throwing a clutch rocket, and saved us.

This was on an easy mode. And sure, we had a Sniper in our comp, which isn't exactly ideal, but that doesn't change the idea of this being a game of survival. You can't always rely on your medic to keep you alive, as you've seen. You need the Clip size to keep more rockets on hand. You need the Re-Load speed to be doing a consistent stream of damage and support. And to cover the point you brought up, a short while is what I call five seconds. In easier modes, yeah. You can get away with that. In rougher modes, if -any- of your members are off the frontline for five seconds [Not including the death animation, so it's actually longer than the re-spawn says] you don't have enough damage. You don't end up killing or keeping away the sentry buster off in time. You don't pass go. You don't collect 200 Credits.

This, partnered with the significantly less damage you'll be providing, like I previously mentioned, is -exactly- why the name of the game is survival. Unless you need to die to stop the bomb from getting to the end point, or somehow save the Engie's sentry, or -something- very important to the team, you never -ever- want to consider dying for something. Dying for a cause in MvM is basically saying, "I just did this to make my team's ability to go on for the next seven seconds easier than if I didn't die for it.".

Basically, he's pointing out that with the way you illustrated your point, that you said an advantage to it was that you wouldn't fall to any temptations to buying ammo upgrades, and have money for 'more important' things. Thus, making it seem that early on, you can have an easier time on the Stock, because of that, added to the point of buying other upgrades that the Stock won't have then at first. Also, not to mention, yes. You did say you might struggle during the first levels, but after what you just said, and paired with mentioning that means Stock will have an even harder time, that this makes early game easy. You don't exactly have to say something to give an audience an idea to what you're getting at. Though, Milky probably is wrong on the part of that being your exact reasoning to picking the Mangler over it.

If you have that much put into your Ammo, then more than likely the soldier has just as much in the same upgrade, if not at least close to it. It should be assumed to -never- wish for a crit. I won't go over it again, as I already pointed out just how much more damage the Stock ends up doing, but I have to mention again that crtiz, mean, everything. On a tank. On a super Hoovy. On hard mode levels where you need Critz on your rockets to do as much as you can with the Canteens and Kritzkrieg. Taking away the ability to crit, is taking the advantage away from a soldier that could be considered one of his only best roles compared to Demoman. Critz in hard mode game play can never be overlooked.

[Robert Monroe]

Versatility is not good in MvM. Specialization is. The idea of MvM is you are a cohesive well oiled team each with a specialization that overcomes obstacles. This holds especially true on the harder modes.

[psy_commando]

Hey there, what was your name when you played with us ? And quite frankly I can also say that I'm not so good at this either. And as for mistakes, if you don't forget to check your health before rocket jumping, like I do too often, you're not that bad

The idea here is really not a thread guide for the 'easy' levels, from what I gathered. Your idea of being very, very, aggressive can totally work, just, if you pull that in higher levels of the easy modes, or even Level One of the hard modes... You're sadly just going to be killed and only be a hinder to the team.

Well yeah, I get this is a more generic guide, I just played easy mode more recently with the mangler, I was just trying to give an example that's fresh in mind. Well, its not that sad, its pretty funny actually.

And as for being an hinderance to the team, that's pretty debatable. Its not like I'm running around taunting the bots or griefing, I'm actually dealing damage, albeit at a reduced dose per hit. The bots have the same health at each difficulty levels (not the tanks though)(http://wiki.teamfort...com/wiki/Robots), so they go down pretty much just as easily, the only thing that changes is their numbers.

Beside, I could say Milky's an hindrance to the team too because he plays soldier and not demoman, if damage output's your concern.

About the units, nope 512 is not the length of one and a half a pyro's flamethrower flame. To give you an idea, the player classes measure 83 units tall (https://developer.va...#39;s_Reference) , the flamethrower's range is what, one and a half the player's height, from the muzzle ? That's closer to 124.5 units.

About the damage thing.

100 mangler shots, in a best case scenario(100% base damages, 512 units to target) will do something like 81 damages that's 8,100 damages points. A regular rocket launcher in best case scenario(100% base damages, 512 units to target) will do 90 damages, that's 9,000. That's 900, yep, you're right about that. Now lets see for say 100 sticky. A sticky is rated at 120 of base damage, that's 12,000 damages, that's 3,000 extra damages you could have contributed to your team !

Also, if you add the numbers, 5 mangler shots at 81 damages give 405 damages. 4 rockets from the stock rocket launcher give 360 damages. Moreover, 8 stickies from the stock sticky launcher gives 960 damages ! That is in the most common situation during a game, no kritskrieg boost active, and no crits canteen active, or any buff active.

And yeah, good point there, I guess having the right ally around at the good time is pretty important, like a pyro when the sentry buster is around.

Basically, he's pointing out that with the way you illustrated your point, that you said an advantage to it was that you wouldn't fall to any temptations to buying ammo upgrades, and have money for 'more important' things. Thus, making it seem that early on, you can have an easier time on the Stock, because of that, added to the point of buying other upgrades that the Stock won't have then at first. Also, not to mention, yes. You did say you might struggle during the first levels, but after what you just said, and paired with mentioning that means Stock will have an even harder time, that this makes early game easy. You don't exactly have to say something to give an audience an idea to what you're getting at. Though, Milky probably is wrong on the part of that being your exact reasoning to picking the Mangler over it.

Well, sorry, I don't really get what you're trying to say there. I fail to see the link there, how saving some money on ammo upgrade for the mangler, makes the stock rocket launcher easier early on ?

I guess you probably meant to say that “Thus, making it seem that early on, you can have an easier time on the mangler†?

If that's the case, how does saving money from going into expanding your ammo stock makes the mangler easier early on ?

And I never said the stock would have a hard time in the end game, you just won't say at the last round “why did I wasted my money on ammo upgrade !?â€. I was probably too vague I guess.

Well at this point, from what you said, I have no idea where the audience is getting at

If you have that much put into your Ammo, then more than likely the soldier has just as much in the same upgrade, if not at least close to it. It should be assumed to -never- wish for a crit. I won't go over it again, as I already pointed out just how much more damage the Stock ends up doing, but I have to mention again that crtiz, mean, everything. On a tank. On a super Hoovy. On hard mode levels where you need Critz on your rockets to do as much as you can with the Canteens and Kritzkrieg. Taking away the ability to crit, is taking the advantage away from a soldier that could be considered one of his only best roles compared to Demoman. Critz in hard mode game play can never be overlooked.

Once again, sorry, I don't get your first point. What does the soldier do in all this, we're talking of weapon upgrade, no ? When you say “it should be assumed to never wish for a critâ€, do you mean you shouldn't shoot rockets unless you have guaranteed critz ? Well, yeah there's no denying a kritzkrieg boosted soldier will beat the damage output of the mangler ! Another thing, you say that for a soldier being crit boosted is its only advantage over a demoman ? A demoman can be crit boosted too. A crit sticky can do a maximum of 353 down to a minimum of 180 depending on the distance of the target from the exploding sticky. If damage's your priority, then screw the soldier and lets all play demopan (not me) !

Yes, it is called that, but those that are very versatile are also known as a Jack of All Trades, A Master of None. The Soldier already has some flaws as Milky pointed out that make him not the 'greatest' but still a possibly great asset to the team. The main point I know he's made to me in the past was the buff banner. By giving up your ability to have a shot gun, you gain possibly one of the best spamming team assets in the mode. Those mini critz will affect; The Demoman, The Engie and his Sentry, The Hoovy, and Himself [i say those four since I've seen them the most consistently in a comp]. Taking away that shot gun, you rely on your team to cover your weakness of being able to pick off a target if you seemingly run out of ammo at a bad time. This, is more than likely covered by the Scout, as he is primarily a team support member. The way you win in hard mode games, is relying on your team to work -as a team-. Getting the most beneficial parts of each class, and resting your weaknesses on your allies strengths to make a Six man god mode to stop the enemy mechs. Having someone built, and upgrading, around their versatility is viable... In easy modes. But getting up into the hard mode games, that is simply not the case, and add into my reasoning of why exactly you need everyone alive at all times if you can afford it.

I love that saying, “Jack of all trades, master of noneâ€.

Yes, yes the buff banner looks pretty great, I was about to try it in my loadout.

And fair enough, however when I played in MannUp or in harder modes, there weren't any scouts, maybe except once and that was User I think.

Milky was wrong on some cases, yes. But overall he's pointing out that your guide is really only good for easy mode, and wrong in itself in many, many more aspects. Nothing wrong with that, just, you should say something along those lines when making the guide that it's going to be not viable for the hard mode levels.

Now now. Being passive aggressive like that is only giving people a show, and in the end, making someone like Milky laugh at the end of the day. Yes, I agree, he was not the most mature on the matter of handling it. I rarely ever condone Milky's behavior 100% on these forums.

And I hate to say it, but after experiencing hard mode, and if you were on my team saying you were going to follow your guide... I'd probably say something along those lines too. So yeah, it came off a little harsh. But if I'm trying to win, I'd agree with Milky, asking that you pick more team based gear and tactics.

A guide ? That was a personal experience report, along with some corrections to what he said. I never had the intention to write a guide..

And yeah, being passive aggressive is awesome And that's pretty much the plan, making people laugh. Also don't worry about that, its just a forum post, I don't hold grudge against him or anything, I just wanted to "return the favor", and write some passive aggressive stuff, and waste 4 hours of my life writing this.

And yeah well, if we'd play on hard and you said that, I'd probably ask you why we aren't 3 kritzkrieg medics and 3 demoman, or full demoman then ? Even though I probably shouldn't play demoman :?

[Fluxy]

You misunderstand me on many points. I'm not going to take an hour to quote and type specific responses, so I'm simply going to make a sort of bullet point system

* First off, I'm arguing on the side of the Soldier. If you would like my opinion on Soldier vs Demoman on this map, I've already agreed many times in game on that note. I'm debating on how to make the soldier most viable, and from what I gathered, that's what I assumed you were debating too. If you'd like to make a debate onto Who does more for the team, there's no point there as I believe Demo does more. Stick to the point at hand. We're talking Soldier. That being said, yes, that early extra rocket makes you a bit more potent early on. But as you get money and upgrade, the Soldier's damage output is much higher with the stock, which was my point in that part.

* Misscomunication again. I was saying that you portrayed that the Mangler has an easier time on the Stock. AKA that has an easier early game. Yes, in retrospect, I could have worded it better. I felt it'd get the point across, but apparently not. You're also really not understanding me, so I'll try to say it in much simpler terms and ways. You said not having to buy ammo upgrades means you can buy other necessities early on, like Damage, compared to the Stock which you make it sound by assumption that you'd have to buy ammo or something else, making the earlier specs for the Mangler better. If you still don't understand what I'm getting at, there is no point in me continuing. Not to mention, I too never said Stock would have a hard end game =P

* ...No. You don't -only- shoot rockets when you have Critz. And you say it as it's very obvious, and yes, it is. But when you say that it's a flaw that the mangler can't Crit, it's not a flaw. It's a cripple. The point I'm making, is that if you take the critz away from a soldier, you take away one of their highlights as a class in the mode -COMPARED- to the Demo. Compared. Compared. Never did I say a kritzdemo can't do just as good a job if not better, nor that a Critz Soldier is even better than it. And as I said again. I'm talking the subject of Soldier. Stay on subject.

*And you are right on that last point [i skipped over the fourth point you put since it was merely an agreed point] I totally missread and thought it was a guide. That was my bad. Also, I assume you're joking about 3 Kritz Medics and 3 Demomen because... like... Fuck it. I'm not getting into why that's retarded.

Edit: Also, my username on Steam was Rolly Polly Volibear. I change my name sometimes just for fun.

[Robert Monroe]

Soldier without kritz of any type is in fact a huge cripple. Crockets have MUCH more splash AoE than regular rockets, and do significantly more damage. They are a core component of Soldier in MvM. Hell, last night, me and Milky went Kritz + Beggar's Bazooka and at the end of the rounds we were spamming out 9-11 Crockets in a matter of SECONDS and it totally DECIMATED entire swarms of robots at once. We instant-gibbed clumps of giant Demomen, and even octoheavies. You just don't get that sort of efficiency with the Mangler.

If anything, I'd advice using the Mangler early game without upgrading it, saving your money, then upgrading a rocket launcher en masse a few rounds in.

[Milkyway64]

* ...No. You don't -only- shoot rockets when you have Critz. And you say it as it's very obvious, and yes, it is. But when you say that it's a flaw that the mangler can't Crit, it's not a flaw. It's a cripple. The point I'm making, is that if you take the critz away from a soldier, you take away one of their highlights as a class in the mode -COMPARED- to the Demo. Compared. Compared. Never did I say a kritzdemo can't do just as good a job if not better, nor that a Critz Soldier is even better than it. And as I said again. I'm talking the subject of Soldier. Stay on subject.

Having read aboot everything, this is about the only thing I really feel needs extra commenting. Let me put it in a bit more clear terms.

Cow Mangler has a ton of decent advantages, like infinite ammo and an extra shot.

What it does not have is as good raw damage (which while being only 9 points higher normally, the damage falls behind even more with boosts. Both crit varieties and paid upgrades) and the inability to crit.

You may have noticed that crits are x3 damage, sometimes more, with no effect from damage falloffs.

This means, you don't have to be right in the Giant Rapid Fire Demomen's face to do decent damage to them, as if you can do decent damage at all.

Even if mangler CAN somehow get 15 shots, 15 shots of 100-ish damage is unable to even compare to 10 shots of crocket 400 damage death.

On top of that, damage isn't everything. Well, it is, but not directly. Demo may do better yes, but soldier has more at his disposal. A buff banner'd demoman may indeed be better than just 2 demomen outright, see. Not to mention, while the demo is buffed, the sentry is supercharged, the heavy can actually harm long range targets, and- yeah fluxy explained this. It's all about teamwork, and your job is support and being a good secondary to boss killing with crit canteens and medic charges, assuming he does not go with the demo.

[psy_commando]

Yeah, I did misunderstand you, sorry. And its all good.

Well first of all, I think I got a little off-track somewhere. I wasn't arguing about the mangler being better, though. I was pretty much trying to justify my use of it, so I don't look like an idiot.. However, I'm pretty sure its too late for the later though, haha. Oh well, I guess I could be the forum's idiot then.

More seriously, by including the demoman in there I was just trying to show that, if you're playing soldier, its certainly not for damage output, because there's another class that does it better. But after that I kinda lost the flow, I'm not really sure why someone plays soldier anymore in MVM..

Anyways, this debate is just pointless, so I'll just shut up now, and bail out with the little dignity I have left.

And I already told you milky but sorry about that.

[Fluxy]

Yeah, I did misunderstand you, sorry. And its all good.

Well first of all, I think I got a little off-track somewhere. I wasn't arguing about the mangler being better, though. I was pretty much trying to justify my use of it, so I don't look like an idiot.. However, I'm pretty sure its too late for the later though, haha. Oh well, I guess I could be the forum's idiot then.

More seriously, by including the demoman in there I was just trying to show that, if you're playing soldier, its certainly not for damage output, because there's another class that does it better. But after that I kinda lost the flow, I'm not really sure why someone plays soldier anymore in MVM..

Anyways, this debate is just pointless, so I'll just shut up now, and bail out with the little dignity I have left.

And I already told you milky but sorry about that.

Debates are very much welcome in this sort of topic idea. The idea of the using the Cow Mangler for maybe rounds one or two before switching it and upgrading the Stock launcher wouldn't really have come up if not for it. In the one instance of Hard mode I played in, it wouldn't have been too viable, imo, but who knows; It might in other maps of it!

But that being said, yes you did get off track, but by no means call yourself an idiot. Doing something stupid just makes what you did stupid. Consistently doing it and being ignorant makes you stupid. It shows you're rather smart to come back and say what you did.

Though, as milky said before, the reason to play soldier is because of the Buff Banner. Giving yourself, the Engie's sentry, the Hoovy, and Demo [Again, common four classes of the 6 members] that mini critz makes him such a team player. Not to mention if for some reason a scout or spy can't get to an enemy sniper that is shooting at your medic or Hoovy, you can [so long as you know how to] be just as mobile as the demo, possibly more so since that's an area I'm not the most well known in, and take out things like that, while the Demo goes and takes care of the other frontliners. You take a soldier because Demo + Demo is strong, but Demo + Soldier is even greater in team wide strength.

And right, I saw what you were getting at with adding the demo, but the topic of discussion really was how to make the soldier most viable. Increasing his damage to the max possibilities just happens to make him the most team friendly as well for MvM.

[!Corgi]

Having read aboot everything, this is about the only thing I really feel needs extra commenting. Let me put it in a bit more clear terms.

Cow Mangler has a ton of decent advantages, like infinite ammo and an extra shot.

What it does not have is as good raw damage (which while being only 9 points higher normally, the damage falls behind even more with boosts. Both crit varieties and paid upgrades) and the inability to crit.

You may have noticed that crits are x3 damage, sometimes more, with no effect from damage falloffs.

This means, you don't have to be right in the Giant Rapid Fire Demomen's face to do decent damage to them, as if you can do decent damage at all.

Even if mangler CAN somehow get 15 shots, 15 shots of 100-ish damage is unable to even compare to 10 shots of crocket 400 damage death.

On top of that, damage isn't everything. Well, it is, but not directly. Demo may do better yes, but soldier has more at his disposal. A buff banner'd demoman may indeed be better than just 2 demomen outright, see. Not to mention, while the demo is buffed, the sentry is supercharged, the heavy can actually harm long range targets, and- yeah fluxy explained this. It's all about teamwork, and your job is support and being a good secondary to boss killing with crit canteens and medic charges, assuming he does not go with the demo.

THATS RACIST

on other notes, The only way to find out pure Damage Per Second is to get fraps, Record you putting out as fast of damage as you can with said wep on some unkillable mob (I.e custom lobby or idle server) and then go back and count the damage over 60 seconds, add it up and divide by 60. there is your DPS and all the weapon dispute evidence you could poop over.

Now, Excuse me while I JOHNMADDENJOHNMADDENJOHNMADDEN my way through all 7 waves solo.

[Thu'um]

i thinking peircing damage is dumb, doesn't just do half the damage to two targets?

and spy shuold be avoided, inless they know what they are doing

[Scourge]

and spy shuold be avoided, inless they know what they are doing

Or you just suck against AI: Gene saved a group's ass several times a while back when he and I were doing randoms. Playing against an AI is one thing, playing against another human is another: two entirely different ways to play the same class.

[Thu'um]

Or you just suck against AI: Gene saved a group's ass several times a while back when he and I were doing randoms. Playing against an AI is one thing, playing against another human is another: two entirely different ways to play the same class.

no, i did well. But i did better as other classes. I'm not saying spy isn't potent. He just not as potent.

[Milkyway64]

Spy actually seems to be regarded as a decent class in MvM.

[Gene Inari]

Yeah, the only bad thing about spy, is the lack of DPS when it comes to tanks, at least in my experience.

[Fluxy]

So far, from what it seems, all the classes are really quite amazing in some aspect on MvM. Spy and Sniper, classes I thought would not be worth crap, actually have great CC against mob waves from what I've heard. Haven't been able to see those two a lot in game, but if what I heard from people on this forum is true, I'd say each class [Given the right comp] can really be a star.

[Icy]

Yeah, I played some Spy tonight and he's really good for taking out Medics quickly before they pop Uber.

Spy + Pyro on the giants + medics. Pyro uses uber canteen, spy saps the medics, BOOM DEAD. So awesome.

I love MvM and how they got each class to really excel at something. I wouldn't say Spy is a good class to play through all waves, but for bad waves with lots of medics, he's not a bad choice at all. Upgrade a few things (knife attack speed, sapper) and you can just swap to him on certain waves and not sacrifice too much cash.