Romney vs. Obama?

[unoservix]

sure it is! it's what you do if you have health insurance of any kind basically any time you use it

we've just been doing it in a ridiculously stupid and dysfunctional way for decades

also we've been doing it since at least the 1960s because, i know this comes as a shock to a lot of people, but Medicare and Medicaid are totally government-run programs. for reals! single-payer health insurance programs funded by taxpayers and operated by the government! it is as socialized as medicine can be!

basic civics, man. they're like fuckin' magnets. how do they work?

[Drasiana]

Admittedly, while the overall percentages leans towards Caucasians taking up the largest portion of welfare, Caucasians also represent in the area of 72.4% of the population while Black Americans represent around 12.6%. (OK OK, my source it Wikipedia admittedly, please correct me if I am wrong). I am not sure on how to find statistics that isolate recipients to each race but I get the feeling it would tell a story that advances racist and conservative rhetoric. Don't get me wrong, I am not meaning to play race cards or anything because there are plenty of cultural problems that create this issue and fingers can be pointed a thousand different directions - all of which having some truth to each of them.

Let's derail for a second just so we can talk about how this is really very wrong and kinda pretty racist (saying "I'm not trying to be racist/play the race card, but..." does not magically make it not racist). It only "advances racist and conservative rhetoric" because people don't actually look at the situation, and instead go the cartoonishly terrible route of "well there are lots of black people on welfare, so that obviously means that it's a bunch of hoodrats and Shaniquas who walked out on her babydaddy cuz he be smellin like another ho's snatch and they're clearly just leeching off our freedom *crying eagle*".

Welfare was created specifically for white people. Blacks did not have access to it until that whole "Civil Rights" thing happened. Because lots of black people in times gone by were treated like absolute shit, which left them massively impovershed, "massively impovershed" was the starting point for many of their children. When you are born into poverty, or are growing up in poverty, especially during a financial recession in a country that's full of racist shitheads, it's not easy to bootstrap your way to success. Take ridiculous cost of living that even regular white, middle class people experience and add a bucketload of systematic oppression on top of that and yeah, sometimes, black people have to use welfare too.

@AJC: Yes, fuck the health of the fellow citizen! Darn gubmint taking my taxes to help people not die, all that money being funneled into those whiny sick kids and their "cancer" and "aids" is being taken away from the real AMERICAN things my taxes pay for...like war and prisons.

[unoservix]

incidentally, you're better off paying taxes to support a single-payer health insurance program because a) that means you don't have to pay even more money when someone goes in for treatment they can't pay for and the cost of that treatment gets passed on to you, the person who can pay, and b) you get all kinds of great positive externalities out of the deal, like a healthier, more productive workforce

[Patch93]

Obama. Yes I know he isn't a very good president, but I have a feeling things will just get even worse for us if Romney gets elected. Especially after hearing what alot of people said about him.

[sroberson]

@Dras: Im not refuting the fact that what I brought up is a red herring issue in regards to the whole welfare problem as all recipients should be considered equally, but to simply throw out the factoid that there are more Caucasian Americans than Black Americans on welfare is only part of the truth surrounding the discussion and even attempting to locate the solution. The point I was making was that there is indeed a lopsided problem to the welfare 'handout' debate - but who's fault it really is, and why it is so, I can't venture to guess. Also I wasn't arguing against welfare, since I do recognize the issue of generations of oppression and severe poverty does cause problems for generations down the road...not to mention that lingering racism only makes the process harder to rectify. On that note: I believe that the necessity of welfare programs highlights other problems that would be wonderful if they were fixed. Welfare isn't the problem, the reasons for welfare is.

Hopefully that made any sense at all...but I just want to say that I do agree with your stance and what you said. Just I never like the idea of not having comprehensive facts that help understand the scenario.

[DZComposer]

I didn't know it was the american way to pay for others health care.....

Uhm, you do know how insurance works, right?

Everyone pays into a pot, and the insurance provider pays claims out of that pot. That goes for pretty much all types of insurance.

In private insurance, the pot is managed by an insurance company. Some of that money skimmed-off for advertising expenses, sales, dividends, and other things to please investors.

In a single-payer system, which is what I advocate, the government maintains this pot, rather than an insurance company. There is no need to please investors and less need to hire marketers or salesmen, so much more of the money in the pot goes towards paying for people's care.

The larger the number of people putting money into the pot, the less each individual has to contribute. This is why health care costs less per-capita in countries with single payer. They don't need to profit, and the entire country is paying into the same pot.

By the way, do you know which president was the first to sign into law federal aid for the poor? It was George Washington. So, was George Washington "Un-American?"

[unoservix]

The point I was making was that there is indeed a lopsided problem to the welfare 'handout' debate - but who's fault it really is, and why it is so, I can't venture to guess.

i would

perhaps it has something to do with

the issue of generations of oppression and severe poverty does cause problems for generations down the road...

[Drasiana]

Sroberson: I see, but next time, try not to phrase it like this:

I am not sure on how to find statistics that isolate recipients to each race but I get the feeling it would tell a story that advances racist and conservative rhetoric.

This reads as "I don't know how Google works, but I'm pretty sure racists are right about black people being welfare queens".

Don't get me wrong, I am not meaning to play race cards or anything because there are plenty of cultural problems that create this issue and fingers can be pointed a thousand different directions - all of which having some truth to each of them.

"All directions are true...including the racist ones!"

Hopefully, rereading what you wrote, you can see why someone would come to the conclusion that you had some unsavoury implications?

Also, here's a pretty easy-to-read clump of welfare statistics, showing that yes, percentage-wise, there are more black people on welfare than white people.

By 1%.

[DZComposer]

Some of those numbers look off to me, and that is furthered by the fact that the CATO institute's data was used.

I notice Medicaid is in there. I hesitate to call that a welfare program, but I can see how people can consider it one.

[Rusakov]

AND STOP IT ALREADY WITH THE HEALTHCARE BILL.

I have some pre-existing conditions that might have been used as reasons for the insurance companies not to insure me. As a result of the healthcare bill, that's no longer a problem. That's part of the reason I'd vote for Obama over Romney.

[sroberson]

@Dras:

My laziness is definitely showing

I am honestly splitting my attention between physics homework because I hate it and having discussions like this because it is way more fun...so my quick search brought up the data on the United States demographics from Wikipedia, but when I tried searching for more racially specific statistics on welfare I found a lot of crazy websites I didn't want to bother taking data from (especially since most of them were pretty loud right wing sites that embarrassed me). I can see how my comments, especially the first one that you quoted, could come across badly - I apologize (I honestly wanted to try and gently slander conservative viewpoints, but that failed terribly). The second quote you made was just me not explaining myself better and having some thought wrapped up in my head regarding just social issues in general.

Again, my bad. I tend to be pretty bad at explaining myself thoroughly enough around here or I phrase things incorrectly.

[Drasiana]

@DZ: I think it's just a really oversimplified one.

All the other pages coming up are more of the same, sometimes showing whites at 39% and blacks at 38% rather than vise-versa, sometimes the numbers are different but the two groups are always within three percent of each other.

I'm not sure how this stat would even be accurately measured, mind you. When applying for welfare programs in the US, do you really have to specify your race?

@Sroberson: Ah, I see. This is why proofreading in the counter-point is key. Otherwise you may be subject to a Dras Attack D:

[sroberson]

@Sroberson: Ah, I see. This is why proofreading in the counter-point is key. Otherwise you may be subject to a Dras Attack D:

I'll take a 'Dras Attack' as a chance to simply learn something new, if not learn that my writing and proof-reading standard is not up to par lol.

[Drasiana]

Hey, that's not a bad result at all!

[Mr. Krystal]

*sigh* I can't respond to this anymore. It's too depressing. I'd say "wait and see that I'm right" but even that won't work because many forget so quickly how bad things have become. And how relatively good they were before. Obama was indeed successful in convincing a large percentage of people that it would have been even worse without him. Didn't think it was possible to fall for it, but such as it is. Maybe you'll start questioning that assertion when the unemployment rate reaches an average 15 percent. I remain hopeful.

[sroberson]

With all due respect Mr. Krystal, I really don't understand where you draw these doom and gloom conclusions from. You seem to be under the impression Obama has made it much much worse when his track record at worst implies he will just keep the status quo. If you could provide specific reasons as to why it will get worse, it would be easier to accept your forecast...but that last message just sounds like the same and rather tired rhetoric of the Republican party who loves nothing more than to deface their opponents and not give them any credit to try and discredit opponents. I have yet to hear what Republicans want to do to fix things - policy wise anyways. But could just be me reading left leaning news media

Note, yes, unemployment is a bit higher than when he took office, by about .6% I think. Suggesting that unemployment will reach 15% if we reelect Obama is a bit extreme. Domestic oil production is at a high, factory jobs are returning, spending is decreasing and will hopefully get much better shortly. I only see the beginnings of a much needed road to recovery...albeit a somewhat painful road...it was still needed

[Faisul]

Some things have indeed become dire in the nation of the United States, but I wouldn't be so quick to point at the most convenient scapegoat recently constructed to hoist the fault on. What exactly, Mr. Krystal, do you think Obama is trying to do? Actively undermine the integrity of the US? Through what means? For what reason? What is it, exactly, that you foresee in the future should Obama serve a second term? I'm legitimately curious.

I didn't know it was the american way to pay for others health care.....

please tell me more about the american way, my bonnie patriot across yonder atlantic sea *swoon*

EDIT: So yeah apparently the American Consulate in Benghazi, Libya was just attacked, leaving an unconfirmed number of US diplomatic staff dead, including an ambassador. It is believed that the attacks were a result of a douchebag called Terry "Q'uran Burner" Jones' efforts to stir up shit via a video casting Muhammat as a womanizing, alcoholized paedophile, causing a crowd of pissed off Libyan salafists/fundamentalists to attack the consulate Sam Bacile, a likely alter-ego of some anti-Islam activist (or group of activists) whose true identity remains unknown. Romney's first reaction?

Throw shit at Obama for not condemning the attack harshly enough. From the NY Times:

I’m outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi,†Mr. Romney said in a statement that went out just before 10:30 p.m. “It’s disgraceful that the Obama administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.â€

What was Obama's statement, exactly? This, from Fox News, no less:

The United States condemns in the strongest terms this outrageous and shocking attack. We're working with the government of Libya to secure our diplomats. I've also directed my administration to increase our security at diplomatic posts around the world. And make no mistake, we will work with the Libyan government to bring to justice the killers who attacked our people.

[...]

Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others.

But there is absolutely no justification for this type of senseless violence. None. The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal acts. Already many Libyans have joined us in doing so, and this attack will not break the bonds between the United States and Libya. Libyan security personnel fought back against the attackers alongside Americans. Libyans helped some of our diplomats find safety, and they carried Ambassador Stevens' body to the hospital, where we tragically learned that he had tied[sic.]

What the fuck, Romney?

[Drasiana]

*sigh* I can't respond to this anymore. It's too depressing. I'd say "wait and see that I'm right" but even that won't work because many forget so quickly how bad things have become. And how relatively good they were before. Obama was indeed successful in convincing a large percentage of people that it would have been even worse without him. Didn't think it was possible to fall for it, but such as it is. Maybe you'll start questioning that assertion when the unemployment rate reaches an average 15 percent. I remain hopeful.

"I can't counter this with anything, but I'm right, goddamnit!"

It's too depressing, I was hoping to finally see a Republican that could actually argue their standpoint before nosediving into an unfounded Obamapocalypse screed.

Funnily enough, your doom and gloom forecast holds true for predictions of a Romney presidency as well...just for mostly everyone who isn't a rich, straight white male.

[unoservix]

yeah, in that Vietnam thread i said something about Romney not wanting to talk about foreign policy because whenever he opens his mouth about it something stupid comes out

CASE IN POINT seriously accusing the president of the united states of treason because an embassy under siege from a crowd inflamed by some fuckwit bigoted asshole released a statement pretty much asking the crowd not to kill them--a statement, i should add, that was released before the attacks

and then stomping off with a self-satisfied smirk on his face

i dunno if this will cost him the election when so far it seems pretty likely he was already going to lose but smirking triumphantly to yourself as your country's diplomats get killed and then blatantly lying about the tragedy for cheap political points is probably not going to work out too well when not even your own party is entirely cool with it

[sroberson]

Uno, I am actually very much surprised to understand that Obama barely holds the lead on Romney. Every news outlet I have seen says that Obama's popularity sits at 51%...which confuses and terrifies me as I would have hoped that this wouldn't be as close of a race as it apparently is :/

[unoservix]

hit up Five Thirty Eight bro. Nate Silver is the guy who pretty much perfectly called the 2008 election and the 2010 midterms. his models work.

and right now he gives Obama a nearly 80% chance of winning in November, by a popular vote margin of between two and four percentage points. granted, some of that may reflect a post-convention bounce, but his model has been consistently giving Obama a better than 60% chance of winning reelection since June--and since then his numbers have only gotten better. and Silver has frequently remarked on how those numbers haven't really changed at all over the course of the campaign.

i suppose something monumental could happen to knock Obama off course but so far it's not looking good for Team Romney, and if Mr. Mittens has any more performances like he had today he'll just be handing Obama another term

[Drasiana]

Mr. Mittens: Romney is a cat in a man-suit. I knew it. (It explains the dog cruelty thing anyway)

[Mr. Krystal]

Laughable. If you don't already know the problems with Obama, you simply aren't listening to any side other than your own. Alright, here's but a small number of reasons you should be very worried about Obama...

And the country as a whole...

Honestly, it's as if you think I have no reasons for my beliefs. Your assumption tells me more about you than what you claimed about me.

And no, I don't get all my news from Bill Whittle. He's just the most succinct commentator on these issues. I read and watch many many different sources.

[Drasiana]

Laughable. If you don't already know the problems with Obama, you simply aren't listening to any side other than your own.

Please, do tell me the parts of "our side" that you've bothered to listen to. I mean, if you weren't being a huge hypocrite, you'd probably know why some people are terrified by the idea of a Republican presidency, right?

VVV

Mr. Krystal if you want to present your case I suggest you take it from a more nuanced source. That mentions its sources.

Also that. That is very important.

[Faisul]

These are my thoughts on the videos. I'll try to keep it to things I can actually comment on. I'm not an economist, but I'm certainly not a libertarian pipe-dreamer either.

Number one, barely competent conspiracy-esque whining about Obama lying and stuff. Drops the socialist bomb, awesome. Finally, a socialist president! Maybe the US will finally become a sane country. The comment on the cartel weapons deals are disturbing if true, but seeing the quality of reporting here it wouldn't surprise me if it weren't yet another desperate attempt at making Obummer look like bad. "HE COVERED IT UP!" Awesome job, go hog wild, looks great! On to number two. Smash the state!

"If you've been successful, you didn't get it on your own." Usually true, what is this guy whining about? You're no longer a nation of do-it-yourself frontiersmen and pioneers. There are individual success stories, yes, but you don't make it big unless you are one lucky son of a bitch or you have contacts & capital. Then ol' Billy here starts moaning about Obama's mom being in an 'openly Communist school' and his dad being inspired by a marxist. What the fuck is it with him and communism? "A story of doors magically opening for him [Obama.]" Rags on Oboma for being privileged, I suppose, in the context of him claiming that success is not [only] due to your own work. Burn Wall Street. Takes it as an insult to all americans. Should have displayed a picture of Lady Liberty crying over a backdrop of a burning eagle.

Something about Obama going to Pakistan, makes it seem like a super shady deal. God, whatever. Present your proof. Points to Obama's inactivity as a Senator. "Attends Rev. Right's Marxist, Anti-American, Anti-White hateful church for twenty years[.]" God, white people whine so fucking much sometimes. Something about Obubba being absent when Rev. Right preaches against "Capitalism, American culpability and white privilege." Wouldn't that be a good thing in Bill's eyes? And hey, those are real things, Billy. You're not lily-white innocent bystanders to some global tragedy of the commons, you often have an apple-pie-crusted finger right in there. Also your neoliberal economics got the west's finances into the fucking mess that it is in the first place. Some socialized government action would be prudent at this point. MIRACULOUS! Don't know anything about selling missile defence capability to 'America's mortal enemies' so I won't say anything about that, but Bill calls Obossa a traitor. Haaaaaaaaaaaa *splodes*

Looking good! Going to number three; Federal budget stuff. DEBT. DEBT DEBT DEBT! DEEEEBT! DEBT! Bill flails about debt. Mentions the majority of government spending being on entitlements. Grumbles about a downward spiral of benefit spending creating more benefit users, coalescing into a black hole in which the US will be imploded. MIRACULOUS! No comment, extremely stupid. May I point out to you that Obob had nothing to do with this and I do not expect him to do much about it; thanks to eight years of corporate privilege under Bush, deregulation from thirty years back (Hey Reagan!) and more insanity than you can shake a stick at in between, yes, the US gov't spends a lot of money on frivolous, stupid crap (the military budged being larger than all the developed nations of the world combined is pretty dumb) and corruption is to be expected. If I were an idealist, I'd hope Barack Osama would clear that up! But he won't, because he's not a socialist. He's actually right of centre, not far from the Republican party, in fact. So are the rest of the Democrats; the only difference is that the Republicans are more socially conservative and are a little more financially conservative as well. To me they're all rightist burgeois scum. Abolish capital! Workers of the world unite! Kill the rich! Eat the poor! MIRACULOUS!

In summary: It's a bunch of fingerpointing, eyebrow-waggling, hush-hush exaggeration and flailing. If it was meant to make us sceptical of Obaba it instead made me more sceptical of conservatives and America as a whole.

Additionally Bill's a part of PJ Media, which is a known conservative and libertarian group; he has a dog in this fight so large it has a gravity well (for attracting dumb people).

Mr. Krystal if you want to present your case I suggest you take it from a more nuanced source. That mentions its sources.