Dinosaur Planet's original story.

[Karruna Niara]

So this really neat discovery popped up some time ago in the last few weeks, and since I don't think anyone in the Star Fox community is talking about it, I thought I should bring it to light.

IOnEI Falcon of Rareminion found a whole bunch of new Dinosaur Planet media around the end of August, which includes new renders, new concept art, a couple of new screenshots and better-quality screens, another trailer video with a few new short clips of gameplay, and five new music files (one of which is actually new, another one being the trailer theme, and the last three ended up being in SFA much like the Galleon Fight and Discovery Falls). All of which can be seen here.

But what's really interesting of note is that there's also character profiles and a condensed story (although the ending isn't revealed and it just leaves at a cliffhanger: "You'll have to play the game to find out!"), which gives us a lot more insight on the cast and original plot of the game, as well as the differences from Star Fox Adventures. I know there's a lot of things that made Dinosaur Planet different from Star Fox Adventures and vice-versa, but one thing I noticed is that there's actually a few areas in SFA that were absent in DP. The Lightfoot Village was a new area in SFA, and DP's Desert Force Point Temple was replaced with the Ocean Force Point Temple in SFA (though in a different location, as Golden Plains is not in SFA).

On that note, there were some areas and dinosaur tribes that didn't make it into SFA. Though Discovery Falls and Warlock mountain are arguably two of the most well-known out of the dropped areas, others include Blackwater Canyon (another Spellstone area akin to Walled City and Cloudrunner Fortress in SFA), Diamond Bay, Earthwalker Temple, Willow Grove, and Golden Plains. As far as dinosaur tribes are concerned, the ones that are mentioned in the story (but have no known appearance) are the HookClaw, the ShadowHunter, and the mutated dinosaurs of Willow Grove. A bit more analysis possibly relevant to this can be found here.

As far as plot is concerned, I'd rather not say too much about it, but it seems that Drakor was the true final boss and main enemy of the game, whereas Scales was just a pawn to help him carry out his plan. Despite previous textrip theories, Drakor is NOT the Great Kamerian Dragon, but is trying to revive the Dragon in an attempt to destroy the Krazoa. Drakor was also the one who gave Scales advanced technology such as jetbikes and sentry robots.

Aaaaaand Krystal was a fox in Dinosaur Planet as well. Could've fooled me. All this time, I thought she was a feline.

There's a lot more I could say, that's just what I have on my mind right now concerning the new stuff. Your thoughts, anyone?

[Thu'um]

thats actualy really cool! Dinasour planet bothers me, its somthing i know that is intresting, apealing to my sense of adventure, and i will never really get to understand it like i want to. Thanks for the cool find!

[Hidi]

Very interesting! I've always been curious about the storyline in Dinosaur Planet. I think it kind of unfortunate that the game didn't get released as it should have, but there are arguments that would say the game was good in either form and so on.

[DZComposer]

I like that story a lot better than SFAd's.

Though interestingly, Scales was apparently intended to be just a pawn all along. The real bad guy in DP was apparently Drakor, who got reduced to a lowly level boss (Dragon Rock) in SFAd.

Also, the Krazoa were appearently still around during DP, and were at war with the Dragons, who Drakor was leader of. http://fyeahdinosaur...note-on-drakor.

Piecing things together, I'm guessing "Cerinia" is the name of Sabre and Krystal's planet, that name had to come from somewhere despite only appearing in the manual. It also expliains why Krystal had this "lone survivor" thing, though I think it is a bit odd that she trusted Randorn after he murdered her whole tribe (not to mention the plot hole: The two tribes were a war and it only took one Wolfen to kill the entire Vixern tribe lolwut? Sabre's brother died needlessly, then. Randorn could have just bitch-slapped all the Vixens with his magic anyway, but apperently chose not to).

Everybody was at war. The Wolfens, the dinosaurs, the Krazoa...

Gods, DP sounded like it was sooooo much much better before it got turned into SFAd.

NINTENDO: Y U NO LEAVE DINOSAUR PLANET ALONE?

[Robert Monroe]

BRB STEALING THIS FOR MY SFA RP

[Star Fox Runner]

Once again, the more I learn about how awesome this game could have been, the sadder I get. :(

[Karruna Niara]

I like that story a lot better than SFAd's.

Though interestingly, Scales was apparently intended to be just a pawn all along. The real bad guy in DP was apparently Drakor, who got reduced to a lowly level boss (Dragon Rock) in SFAd.

Also, the Krazoa were appearently still around during DP, and were at war with the Dragons, who Drakor was leader of. http://fyeahdinosaur...note-on-drakor.

Piecing things together, I'm guessing "Cerinia" is the name of Sabre and Krystal's planet, that name had to come from somewhere despite only appearing in the manual. It also expliains why Krystal had this "lone survivor" thing, though I think it is a bit odd that she trusted Randorn after he murdered her whole tribe (not to mention the plot hole: The two tribes were a war and it only took one Wolfen to kill the entire Vixern tribe lolwut? Sabre's brother died needlessly, then. Randorn could have just bitch-slapped all the Vixens with his magic anyway, but apperently chose not to).

Everybody was at war. The Wolfens, the dinosaurs, the Krazoa...

Gods, DP sounded like it was sooooo much much better before it got turned into SFAd.

NINTENDO: Y U NO LEAVE DINOSAUR PLANET ALONE?

Concerning Scales, he MIGHT have gotten promoted to mainbadguy/finalboss status in an early build of SFA (before the whole descision to made Andross the final boss), if this sound clip is valid evidence. Pretty sure you guys have heard it before, but yeah. Drakor definitely got demoted to normal-boss status, though.

Speaking of, funny thing about Drakor. For years since the SFA text dump in 2005, I thought Drakor was the "Great Kameria Dragon" the dinosaurs worshipped. When I happened upon another textrip mentioning the Kameria Dragon and Drakor as seperate bosses, I was a bit confused. It wasn't until the story got leaked that I found out that the "Kameria Dragon Boss" mentioned in that textrip was referring to the "Kamerian Heart" in the DP story, wheras Drakor was the final boss. Drakor was trying to revive the Dragon's powers by using the planet's energy to power its heart, which he would then use to destroy the Krazoa (as well as Dinosaur Planet).

Drakor actually wasn't the leader of the dragons; it's stated in his character bio that he was a member of their race, but was exiled due to being a threat to the dragon society (after their war with the Krazoa, the dragons became more peace-loving.).

Sabre and Krystal's home planet was actually called "Animus". Sabre mentions it at :22 in this video. But yeah, DP's plot does explain why Krystal's the only survivor of her race. Krystal fanfic authors take note here. Concerning why she trusted Randorn after he killed her tribe, she didn't know that he was the one who killed her tribe. Plus, she was scared, and Randorn was rather friendly to her, so she had to trust someone.

But yeah, why Randorn didn't wipe out the entire tribe before is beyond me. I guess he was rather lax about it before his elder son died, and that's what put him over the edge?

Theories, ha ha...

I swear, I really want to see the game in some form (fanfic, fangame, rom leak, anything). Dangit, Nintendo, it was just fine before you muddled in it. :c

[Robert Monroe]

To be honest, Nintendo didn't muddle much. They said "put Fox McCloud in it". Rare was still lazy about the execution.

[Nope.]

Woah...

This website is going straaaaight into my bookmarks.

[Drasiana]

"This has conflict, emotion, buildup, and a distinct development of the interpersonal relationships of the characters and their place in this world," said Rare as they completely cut it from the game.

whyyyy

[Ala1n-J]

Aw man, I knew DP's original story was better written than the final SFAd game, I didn't know it was THAT great!

Krystal having a backstory, the Krazoa vs. Kamerians war, the whole thing! However I'm not a fan of some parts :

- as mentionned by DZ, Krystal trusting Randorn is odd, she could have seen him slauthering her tribe, or if not she could be afraid of seeing a Wolven in her village, since Wolvens and Vixons were enemies;

- SFAdv was flakked for adding magic in a technologic universe (though Starfox being a technologic universe by nature, it's a valid point), here we have a technologic race appearing in a magic-driven world, I feel it a bit out of place; it still works better than in SFAd because DP didn't have any game before that established the universe's mechanics but still I find this odd, the Kamerians could have also used the Wormhole magical portal to arrive on Dinosaur Planet instead of relying on technology. I just feel that the technological aspect of Kamerians is not much revelant in DP. If someone wants to debate on that, please do.

Anyways, it would have been a great game. But Rare went all crazy because Nintendo suggested to put Fox in. The Rare team was divided between the pros and the cons, when Nintendo passed from the N64 to the Gamecube the Pros won. Now add in the bad relationship between Nintendo and Rare at the time (Conker's Bad Fur Day) and Rare being bought by Microsoft resulting in limited time for SFAd's development, it was bound to end up with a crippled story.

Now I still like SFAd, but I wish the story could have been properly re-worked to fit better in the Lylat system.

[Karruna Niara]

Just got this in my tumblr inbox (it'll be on FYeahDinosaurPlanet later today). An hour of Dinosaur Planet gameplay!

I just started watching it, so I don't have much commentary on it yet.

[DZComposer]

- SFAdv was flakked for adding magic in a technologic universe (though Starfox being a technologic universe by nature, it's a valid point), here we have a technologic race appearing in a magic-driven world, I feel it a bit out of place; it still works better than in SFAd because DP didn't have any game before that established the universe's mechanics but still I find this odd, the Kamerians could have also used the Wormhole magical portal to arrive on Dinosaur Planet instead of relying on technology. I just feel that the technological aspect of Kamerians is not much revelant in DP. If someone wants to debate on that, please do.

This can be done, if done right. What do you thing The Force is in Star Wars if not a facsimile of magic powers?

[Gene Inari]

It's amazing to just how much was reused and recycled between the changes in development from DP to SFA. Cool stuff either way.

[Star Fox Runner]

I was thinking, even though it wouldn't be totally complete, there has to be a build of this game existing somewhere in Rare's offices. I mean, with the amount of time they put into the original vision of the game, they couldn't have just thrown out the original build before the conversion to SFAd.

Too bad it couldn't have been leaked out online the way Star Fox 2 was.

[Rin]

The Test of Sacrifice jumped out at me a bit, haha. Wonder what that one would have entailed if it was implimented.

This is all incredibly interesting. I have to agree with Star Fox Runner, there has got to be a build for it somewhere. It'd be nice if they someday revisited it.

[Ala1n-J]

This can be done, if done right. What do you thing The Force is in Star Wars if not a facsimile of magic powers?

You're right. Why didn't I think about Star Wars?

One thing though : I heard it was from a Communication Chamber, powered by the two Force Point temples, used to extract magical energy from the planet core. These temples could destroy Dinosaur Planet at any moment. Maybe only a small quantity of magic is needed for the chamber to activate a wormhole, but I feel it's kind of odd. Also, were these temples already there before Scales conquered Dinosaur Planet? If Scales and Drakor didn't build them, who did? Was there a self-destruction system build in the planet only waiting to be used? How fortunate the Spellstones do exist as evil-stoppers though, the one who made the temples also made a safety just in case.

Now, the way I see it, the Dragons's nature of the Kamerians could have been enough to put them as the same mythical range the Krazoa are, no need of technology for that. And I don't think Drakor made Scales's precious galleon, it doesn't look that technological. Which makes me ask, don't the Sharpclaws already have enough technological advance over the other tribes to conquer Dinosaur Planet without Drakor's help? Or maybe the Guardians were powerful enough to keep the Sharpclaws at bay before Drakor arrived.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking that... and perhaps missing elements. But this is what I've come up with after reading the story.

[Zzz]

This can be done, if done right. What do you thing The Force is in Star Wars if not a facsimile of magic powers?

I still agree with Ala1n's original argument. Star Wars started out with the Force in the very first movie and it was a big deal. Adventures introduced actual magic elements in an already established practical universe. The only thing really out of that world was Andross at the end as a giant floating head but it doesn't need to be flat out magic, you know?

The Force is also more of a spiritual thing and not a magical element that relies on simply using spells or wondrous devices. We have a similar concept in Star Fo 64 already->Use the Force = Trust your instincts.

But I mean I could go on and on about this. The question you have to answer yourself is; why didn't the magic aspect work in the Star Fox universe when it was introduced in Adventures?

[Drasiana]

Magic actually worked in Adventures because it was "Fox the mercenary goes to a weird planet where weird shit happens", which isn't entirely out-there in a series built around talking animals. What gave people whiplash in Adventures was more the fact that the gameplay mechanics based themselves around magic in a way that was exceptionally far-removed from all previous games in the series. If the game had involved Fox using a blaster instead of a staff and utilized better, more extensive Arwing levels, I don't think people would have a stick up their ass about the magic thing.

People like to blame "magic" for the reasons why Adventures was a terrible Star Fox game but it's not really that simple. I think a couple tweaks would have actually sat it better in the universe, magical aspect intact. Even the "ancient civilization" thing could have been tied into the subplot set up by Titania and Aquas in SF64.

[Ala1n-J]

Granted, the magical aspect worked in Adventures. But it only worked there, and since the planet was seen after Adventures without any use of magic (I don't count telepathy as a purely magical asset), it still seems off in the Starfox universe. I think the "magic" could have been handled better to fit in Lylat instead of just being introduced there, without more explanation on its origins.

But my original point was about Dinosaur Planet's original script, with technological assets brought into a magical world. Animus and Dinosaur Planet work with magic, so their universe works with magic. Then we have the Krazoa and the Kamerians, who are ancestral beings, engaged into a millenar war (probably caused by the Krazoa). The Krazoa are magical, the Kamerians are technological. I wonder how long the Kamerians had been there to develop such advanced technology while they were "neighbors" of the Krazoa, both born roughly at the same time (at least that's what I get when reading the script). It also seems that Kamerians can use magic as well.

So what is the real nature of their power? Technology or magic? If that's magic, technology would only be a gadget, not revelant compared to their magic (a bit like the Force that can outpass state-of-the-art technology, as Darth Vader said). If that's technology, I don't think it's used to its full potential. Drakor's plan could have been to use technology to destroy the planet in where the Krazoa locked themselves, not caring if he has to kill countless innocents. It could have been a technology vs. magic/nature fight. But instead of that he uses magic as well to destroy the Krazoa. So what was the point of all the tech things?

One of the reason the Tech/Magic mix worked in Star Wars was because the two sides (good and evil) had roughly same technological levels, the Force was a subtle but powerful asset used by both sides as well. The main difference is how and what the belligerents wanted to used them for. In Dinosaur Planet we have advanced technological beings landing on a "primitive" planet. The difference is so obvious that one could think good uses magic and evil uses technology. But after reading the story, I felt the technological aspect didn't have that much revelance in the end.

Fun fact, I used Titania's subplot for character redesign (a small project of fanarts I've been planning). Krystal's people could have been the people on Titania that fled after that meteor (or was it a meteor?). The planet could have been called Cerinia by its people, before Cornerian scientists came here and called it Titania. When we get in the Lylat Wars's timeline, Krystal is be the last Cerinian still living and because her elders didn't say much about Cerinia's fate she returns in Lylat to find out by herself. Just a thought.

[Zzz]

It might have worked for you and it worked for me because not everyone can have the same sense of perception and acceptence to embrace and appreciate a new element with such a foreign feel to it. I mean this is where the fandom broke apart, after all. It's like devoting yourself to a new installment and not everyone is willing or able to do that, which I can appreciate, as well.

"Fox the mercenary goes to a weird planet where weird shit happens" just was too much for others and I can at least understand where they are coming from. Basically, in 64 you could drive a tank and a submarine, you were attacking all kinds of ships, creatures and bioweapons. Very practical, still cartoony but down to earth enough to understand how these things could work from a technical and realistic stand point. From that not only did we have to adjust to a completely different genre but also the things that we were exploring were something so very new and out of place, as it seems.

Adventures was different in the sense that while it was still sci-fi it kind of dealt with new technology...fueled by magic, pretty much.

It wasn't like Fox lands on a different planet in a completely different galaxy where they have different kinds of technology period. Magic is simply accepted and used on this planet, allegedly near or even in the Lylat System. It basically makes you think that new laws of nature are applying here.

While, again, I personally enjoy almost every aspect of Adventures (Yes, I'm going that far!) I can't honestly blame anyone who is against magic in Star Fox.

With or without ancient civilizations and whatever they have been all about it's still a deviation of some kind. Whether you enjoy it or not is a completely different question and I happen to enjoy Adventures very, very much. But losing yourself in details and somehow retconing it by slightly changing the logic and rules of an already established universe by referring to vaguely mentioned elements is...maybe unfair, even. I mean, sure you can totally make it work but it's..just not needed, in a way, you know what I mean?

If we are referencing Star Wars I'm going to use an example there too:

In the Original Trilogy the Force was a completely spiritual thing. In the prequels it was biologically explained. Well, almost. It was said that through special cells you are told the will of the Force. Sure it changed the nature of the Force. Sure it changed everything to natural selection all of a sudden but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh it kind of works...whatever. I guess it even makes sense if you can "pass on" the Force, which enabled both Luke and Leia to become Jedi Knights but really, we didn't need to explain the Force like that. We really, really didn't.

Does that mean we can only have a rather limited arsenal of themes for an established universe for the sake of consistency? Yes, it does...doesn't it?

Does it mean we SHOULDN'T deviate from it? No, not really, I mean you can spawn something like Adventures and it will find its fandom. I'm part of it.

But whatever the case what WE SEE IN THE FOREGROUND in 64 is completely different from what we can see in Adventures. So what there might be magic out there?...It was never part of Star Fox 64, that's my point.

Star Fox 64 never ever said there is no magic. It's completely possible, hey everything is possible in a universe with anthros but not only did it never say that it very might well be possible but it also never mentions it clearly.

And of course this is gonna piss off people.

(Alien fans hate Aliens because it's an action movie. The first Alien didn't say there can never be action in that universe, tho. You get what I mean?)

[Drasiana]

The thing is, this "Advenures was terrible because magic!" mindset is only something I've heard more in the past couple years, at least from what I noticed. The original criticisms were more along the lines of "Zelda clone", "where the hell is Falco", "everything's a fetch quest", "Krystal is boring", etc, The "what if Star Fox had magic" idea was popular in fanfiction long before Adventures was a thing. It might've been a gripe for some people, but it wasn't until the past couple years that I noticed everyone say "yep, it was definitely entirely the magic's fault" as the simplest explanation as to why everything else was terrible. People were excited for Adventures, and from the trailers, it was pretty damn obvious there was magic in it. Sure, right off the bat some people might've been turned off, but it is literally impossible to please everyone, and every installation of a series will always both lose and gain fans. The main disappointment for those excited for the game--like myself--was not from the magic itself, but how poorly it was utilized.

I also never said the way Adventures used magic works at all. It doesn't. I'm saying, with a couple minor changes, they could have made it work. Explain away the whole "why isn't there magic in the rest of Lylat" thing with an Avatar-esque "they get their energy from the planet itself" mumbo jumbo, get General Pepper to say it hasn't been touched by the Cornerians due to some conservation law, and bam. Sense. No, not everyone would be happy with it, but it would have worked.

Star Fox 64, while great, did not exactly give us this huge expansive idea of the inner workings of individual planets. ANYTHING that would show up in anything other than an exact replica of the game would be "referring to vaguely mentioned elements", and yes, it is entirely fair for successive games to build on ideas that've been set up in the text of the series. My entire purpose in bringing up the ancient civilization thing was to point out how they completely missed the opportunity to have Adventures actually make sense within the realm of the series. For all Nintendo's insistance that Dinosaur Planet be a Star Fox game, they put very little effort into making it a believable part of Lylat. But again, that is not as easy as just saying "uhhh MAGIC". There isn't an on-and-off magic switch that makes your series great or terrible depending on what it's set to.

As far as Dinosaur Planet goes, I think we can only speculate so much, and remember that even though the script was better than Adventures was it probably still had a couple holes in it. There was probably some stuff included in dialogue that we don't necessarily see in the story rundown that might have shed some light on the minor details.

[Zzz]

Well, everyone should have the right to complain about and dislike whatever aspect they want but just the mere concept of magic is Adventures' lesser problem. It's enough for a lot fans to turn away tho if incorporating this element into their beloved universe deviates the focus of what they originally came for.

I remember back in like 2003 one of the first forums I lurked on; lylat.net. Damn these people were divided. After a while the ones accepting Adventures stayed the other vanished.

Being young and naïve I couldn't even understand how you wouldn't like this game. I was disappointed you couldn't make use of your fucking blaster pistol and I mostly projected my frustration onto others, as well to reenact all of this.

But enough of the adventures of little R3DFiVe :I

I was convinced you bringing up the ancient civilizations was to give a potential explanation of how magic could've been part of the Lylat System for eons.

That struck me (while not as extreme) as this -Anakin was the one who conveniently built C3PO-type of retcon.

No, of course we should build our new ideas upon things set up in the already existing game, per se. I mean I want my cow milked somehow.

I can't disagree more with

“ANYTHING that would show up in anything other than an exact replica of the game would be "referring to vaguely mentioned elements"

tho

Given I actually did NOT misunderstand your point, obviously.

I mean a game set around James McCloud's adventures is more than based on „vaguely mentioned elements“. It is MORE tightly connected to the events in SF64 than the barely mentioned ancient civilizations on Titania or Aquas while not creating an exact copy. It's just like with the difference between contradictory and contrary.

There are some things that work “â€â€â€œbetterâ€â€â€â€ than others on a scale with more than 0 and 1.

I very much agree that it's almost lazy to just blame everything on the mere fact that magic was involved. It's like throwing it away and disregarding it quickly without really making the effort to make it work. It's important to be open for new elements and think of all their potential before judging. However, I wouldn't underestimate “uhhh MAGIC“. It's a new element. You introduce a new element to give your franchise a new twist. This new twist will, since it's a new twist after all, change certain rules and dynamics of that universe.

For example...shortly after Star Fox 64 a fan might think the next logical step is to enhance and NOT change the formula. With the next installement you'd be given even MORE vehicles on these arcade-like levels to play around with! More planets and more cinematic scripted events! More realstic and vast skies and land for the all range levels! Stuff like that, you know? Magic kind of makes these things not very needed anymore and the focus is on something completely different.

Or I mean you could throw everything together in one mix but try not making it a clusterfuck. It's...really difficult. It also takes away the awe-inspiring out of this world experience for both when you are confronted with everything on a big pile of unrealistic elements.

Raw technology and magic are very contradictory elements (Marvel's Thor clumsily stated the opposite to make their rules sound at least more plausible) and introducing either as an over-prominent aspect within the opposite's universe can take away the appeal for many fans very easily.

While again, I highly agree with you that there is a lot more to the fact why magic didn't quite work in Adventures than simply that it HAD magic period, if someone said he didn't like it solely because of magic...I'd completely understand.

[Drasiana]

While again, I highly agree with you that there is a lot more to the fact why magic didn't quite work in Adventures than simply that it HAD magic period, if someone said he didn't like it solely because of magic...I'd completely understand.

First of all...I never said no one should NEVER be upset that there's magic in it? In fact, I specifically said that in my previous post? My entire point has always been that "bawww magic ruined the starfac" is an oversimplified scapegoat that glosses over the actual problems faced by the game that went deeper than personal taste and fear of change.

I mean a game set around James McCloud's adventures is more than based on „vaguely mentioned elements“. It is MORE tightly connected to the events in SF64 than the barely mentioned ancient civilizations on Titania or Aquas while not creating an exact copy. It's just like with the difference between contradictory and contrary.

There are some things that work “â€â€â€œbetterâ€â€â€â€ than others on a scale with more than 0 and 1.

What? You go from saying "No, of course we should build our new ideas upon things set up in the already existing game", and then pretty much say that the attempt at worldbuilding based on pre-existing elements in the series should just be, I dunno, forgotten or something, because it's not as "tightly connected" and something to do with contradictory/contrary. And it's not "retconning" anything, because it's expanding on the series without erasing any of it. TWO bossfights in SF64 were related to the "ancient civilization" thing (Baccoon and Goras, which show up in Adventures' prequel, too, weirdly enough), so it's not like this barely-canon sidenote forgotten forever.

The thing is James' plotline has nothing to do with the ancient civilization thing, because it's character building as opposed to worldbuilding. It's like trying to tie the fact that Peppy randomly has a daughter in Command to whether or not Solar is a planet.

And it's funny that you bring up James, actually, considering the fact that he only shows up as a goddamn ghost and is more indicative than anything that a supernatural element does exist and has already been established in Lylat.

I very much agree that it's almost lazy to just blame everything on the mere fact that magic was involved. It's like throwing it away and disregarding it quickly without really making the effort to make it work. It's important to be open for new elements and think of all their potential before judging. However, I wouldn't underestimate “uhhh MAGIC“. It's a new element. You introduce a new element to give your franchise a new twist. This new twist will, since it's a new twist after all, change certain rules and dynamics of that universe.

Not if they'd explained that magic only works on Sauria, for whatever reason. It's so, so easy to make it a completely self-contained situation, even imply that the "magic" has a technological basis (again with the Ancient Civilization implications). In fact I got the impression that magic only worked on Sauria in the canon as it is, considering it's never really mentioned again outside of Krystal randomly being a telepath (something that she wasn't in Adventures, so that's something stupid you can blame Assault for).

For example...shortly after Star Fox 64 a fan might think the next logical step is to enhance and NOT change the formula. With the next installement you'd be given even MORE vehicles on these arcade-like levels to play around with! More planets and more cinematic scripted events! More realstic and vast skies and land for the all range levels! Stuff like that, you know? Magic kind of makes these things not very needed anymore and the focus is on something completely different.

Not...really? The lack of these in Adventures had nothing to do with magic and had everything to do with terrible level design. If they'd kept the Arwing levels to the planet instead of "random space void", you would have had great Arwing sequences like "flying through giant dinosaur canyons" and "flying through a storm to reach Krazoa Palace". Some of the movement was rendered obsolete by the WarpStone but he was pointless for all of twice and could have been easily swapped out for an Arwing.

Sure, it might not have been "exactly Star Fox 64...but different", but elements of such could have easily been incorporated into the game to make it feel more "Star Fox" without entirely removing the element of magic.

And that's where I say, yet again, that Adventures' introduction of magic was terrible. But "magic" is not a black-and-white element. Not all magic is Harry Potter magic, or Lord of the Rings magic, or Zelda magic, or any other multi-faceted example of magic in the entire genre. Neither is "raw technology", considering how outlandish Star Fox's "technology" is to begin with, considering in all this discussion of realism no one's mentioned the giant floating monkey brain.

[Zzz]

First of all...I never said no one should NEVER be upset that there's magic in it? In fact, I specifically said that in my previous post? My entire point has always been that "bawww magic ruined the starfac" is an oversimplified scapegoat that glosses over the actual problems faced by the game that went deeper than personal taste and fear of change.

No no, I know. We are pretty much on the same page here and I'll stress enough we have very similar views on the magic aspect in Adventures. In this topic I've been kind of trying to explain how things alienated audiences.

Just, I wouldn't condemn someone's beaf with the very fact of including the magic element.

See, even if all the magic stuff DID make sense and it was utilized properly it would've given you a different twist on the laws of nature of the Lylat System. And honestly, that's easy to hate when you have fallen in love with the world set up in SF64, I bet.

I'm not speaking for myself here but more on this after the next quote....

What? You go from saying "No, of course we should build our new ideas upon things set up in the already existing game", and then pretty much say that the attempt at worldbuilding based on pre-existing elements in the series should just be, I dunno, forgotten

The thing is James' plotline has nothing to do with the ancient civilization thing, because it's character building as opposed to worldbuilding. It's like trying to tie the fact that Peppy randomly has a daughter in Command to whether or not Solar is a planet.

Yup! Now, I personally have no issue with your worldbuilding. Why would I? I'm so very open for new ideas and creative takes on things and I enjoy exploring new ways of understanding a fictional universe.

But my entire point in this topic was seeing things from an avarage-oldschool Star Fox fan and what this person would want.

Why would I keep saying that I personally enjoyed almost every aspect of Adventures and not only defending your point about how there is more wrong with Adventures than just „herpa derpmagic“ but also substantiating it every now and then?

In this case however, it is so irrelevant whether James' plotline is „character building“ or not as opposed to „worldbuilding“

See it from the perspective of aforementioned fan. If we HAVE to choose between, for example, concentrating on either James' stories or exploring background stories of forgotten civilizations we'd go with James, huh? We wouldn't run the risk of losing the audience already by feeding them something that was at least more prominent but untouched in 64. At least it was more prominent than ancient civilizations and two random bosses. I bet most players cared more about James than these guys in the long run.

That's the entire point. I was also illustrating the black-and-white perspective by talking about „something to do with contradictory/contrary „ The oversimplified point of view that „ANYTHING that would show up in anything other than an exact replica of the game would be "referring to vaguely mentioned elements" just didn't do justice to the fact that some things are more attrative to most fans than others, eg; the whole James thing vs ancient civilizations.

And it's not "retconning" anything, because it's expanding on the series without erasing any of it.

Wait...earlier I said this: „I was convinced you bringing up the ancient civilizations was to give a potential explanation of how magic could've been part of the Lylat System for eons. „

So WERE you? Because only then would I have classified it as some sort of retcon.

I saw it from the perspective of today. Two things were already established (the ancient civilizations and the magic in Adventures) and now they are being connected so they conviniently make sense together.

And it's funny that you bring up James, actually, considering the fact that he only shows up as a goddamn ghost and is more indicative than anything that a supernatural element does exist and has already been established in Lylat.

Supernatural it very much is but I wouldn't call it „magic“. It's still very differnt from what is going on in Adventures.

Fox could've easily been just having a vision of his dead father returning as guardian angel. He didn't do a ritual or he never used an item to contact him. It was a heartwarming little thing at the end.

Just either way, in my humble opinion I think it's unfair to even compare James' appearance to Adventures' magical elements. Only because he appeared in a spiritual context doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever supernatural, mostly magic. Andross' deal, however, is at least debatable on some level...but even that one isn't as unexplainable as what we see in Adventures.

Not if they'd explained that magic only works on Sauria, for whatever reason. It's so, so easy to make it a completely self-contained situation

Oh yeah, definitely. That's MY personal take on this, as well.

As far as I'm concerned they got a little carried away with the magic thing in Adventures and it can have WHATEVER kind of reason why it only works on Dinosaur Planet. Maybe it wasn't even magic at all, maybe it was just foreign technology that the dinosaurs believed to be magic. Works either way but as long as we keep it on Sauria I'm personally happy.

No fucking around with spell stones no more on Corneria all of a sudden or something, fucking hell.

considering it's never really mentioned again outside of Krystal randomly being a telepath (something that she wasn't in Adventures, so that's something stupid you can blame Assault for).

Oh my god...I know, right?

That one fucks with me so much. It basically became her entire character in Assault. There was NOTHING remotely interesting about her and then they'd have to use this bullshit attribute of hers.

What is this telepathy thing based on anyway? Was it the fact that she communicated with Fox through her staff and that shit was re-written as being telepathy or like...where does it even come from?

This makes me so confuzzy~

Sure, it might not have been "exactly Star Fox 64...but different", but elements of such could have easily been incorporated into the game to make it feel more "Star Fox" without entirely removing the element of magic.

Yeah, I guess. But like I was talking about „focus“ again and things not being needed. We can try our best to make both things work together-the vehicular action and magic but in the end it's kind of like...you know, a clusterfuck to me.

I uh...I just don't know it's just weird if I was in the middle of a battlefield with my fucking tank and at the same time I was fighting to get a spell stone.

The first thing gives you completely feeling than the latter. Maybe it would work for some but I just can't see myself agreeing with it.

(Fox flying around in canyons and whatnot is cool, why not? Dinosaur planet could've been just a place with very undeveloped civilizations and he's the only one who would really know how to operate ships and stuff...minus actual magic. That works, too.

Why not that?)

considering in all this discussion of realism no one's mentioned the giant floating monkey brain.

Oh but I did. In my very first post in this topic, in fact.

But like...by that point the makers were probably like „fuck it, it's just a game..let's have a cool endboss“ and they just did it.

Sure, Star Fox' technology is outlandish but you can still kind of make sense of it looking at it from a science fictional perspective without having to consider magic, at all.

Andross' deal? Hell, he could've just been floating because he was in his super special awesome room where there was no gravitity or whatever. I mean there are so many weird creatures and life forms in Star Trek LIVING in space being all weird n shit but it can all be explained while bending reality not SO much that it has to be supernatural. Let alone magic.