Drasiana Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Glad we're on the same page, but a couple last points: Yes, it is entirely fair to separate character establishment and worldbuilding. A well-built fictional world has characters and settings that can believably exist independantly yet make sense together and they don't somehow cancel each other out, like you implied with saying "people are more interested in James than the ancient civilization of Lylat". It doesn't have to be a competition because the two things are seperate structures. Saying "people are more interested in building on pre-existing planets rather than making up new ones" would have been a far better argument. James' plotline can be referenced or continued regardless of the setting, so there is no reason why the setting should contradict his mention. Your examples of it being a "clusterfuck" are good examples of clusterfuckery, but only because, for whatever reason, you're making them sound as terrible as possible. If anyone had any sense in incorporating a Landmaster into Adventures, it wouldn't have been "fucking tanks showing up while fighting for a Spellstone", it would be a mission like "the Gatekeeper went missing in the wasteland! It's too hostile to find him ourselves!" so you take your tank and trundle through the wasteland and, I dunno, fight a spinosaur or something, which isn't more outlandish than having to save Slippy from the claws of an ancient planet guardian. In Star Fox, the lines between "science" and "magic" are exceptionally blurry. The explanations for "the giant mutant lava man" and "Andross is secretly a giant brain" and "James appearing and leading Fox out of the base" are just as extensive as Sauria falling apart and Krazoa spirits, which is to say, nonexistant. Hell, Andross turning into a giant brain that shoots lasers at you and teleports around was far more what the christ than anything in Adventures was (except for...when Andross showed up and did basically the same thing again, and it was implied he was behind a lot of this to begin with, so clearly...I just confused myself). The function of magic and technology in Adventures has always reminded me of Atlantis: The Lost Empire, because it's about a bunch of mercenaries with tanks and guns finding a lush, tropical world and encountering an ancient people who use a form of "magic" that powers their technology. This is the barebones premise of the setting in Adventures, plus a few dozen plotholes. What made it clash in Adventures, however, was Fox's sudden reliance on magic. This is a character that has never used "magic" before, ever, and suddenly he's pretty much a goddamn wizard and never really acknowledges that HOLY SHIT, THERE'S MAGIC. If Krystal had retained her staff and kept it for her side of the game (the staff itself can be bullshat away as "technology"), the Arwing levels weren't terrible, and Fox still had some command over technology (plus the planet's existing technology had a bit more explanation) it wouldn't have been such a culture shock, because the function of Fox himself is more familiar than the hack-and-slashing magic weilding protagonist we ended up with. Actually, if you avoided the word "magic" in Adventures and simply called it a "raw energy source", and the Spellstones "energy resonators" or something, suddenly, that sounds a lot more "scientific", doesn't it? The magic there is the "unobtanium" of Star Fox. They're different words for the same plot device function and they only seem different from each other based on whether or not you use some technobabble to describe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzz Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 It doesn't have to be a competition because the two things are seperate structures Nargh. I'm sorry you were under the impression you'd have to explain this obvious matter. OF COURSE, I agree. I must've lost you on many things I brought up then. Lemme try to explain...this is what I said: If we HAVE to choose between, for example, concentrating on either James' stories or exploring background stories of forgotten civilizations we'd go with James, huh? If we HAVE to choose Pretend it's some time after SF64 now, Adventures never happened and will never happen. Pretend there's either making a game about the Star Fox team exploring ancient civilizations as the focus of the plot or making a game about James' past. Now here's an idea: Yeah like..uh...I don't know...make the old Star Fox team be on a mission and they somehow come in contact with something from an old and forgotten civilization and it becomes an Indiana Jones kind of thing. I bet these mercenaries see a lot of strange shit, travelling around the Lylat System so why not... But pretend you'd HAVE to choose either one or the other. This scenario might seem kind of moot but in other situations this rule of choosing something more "interesting" and "in-universe" will of course prove to be very helpful. It's a very elemantary rule and I bet you weren't expecting something that simple which might have confused you. Sometimes the most obvious and logical next step can be much better than a more obscure element while not repeating the first installment at all. "the Gatekeeper went missing in the wasteland! It's too hostile to find him ourselves!" so you take your tank and trundle through the wasteland and, I dunno, fight a spinosaur or something Yeah and my version could've easily been a parody of this scenario. I mean you are doing all this to get the spellstone anyway. First you need the gatekeeper, of course but it's basically doing it for the same purpose in the bigger picture. What do I know...at this point us talking about Landmaster missions in Adventures is so out of place anyway. Fucking General Pepper wouldn't allow you to use such a thing on the planet anyway. He wouldn't want us to BLOW UP the planet right? He wouldn't want Fox to use his blaster to fucking murder these poor dinosaurs but he kind of does it anyway but instead with his staff. So I guess he WAS kind of disobeying? Just...like...not literally because he didn't use a BLASTER to shoot? I guess might as well just use the staff because carrying around all this ammo for his blaster would have no point and shoving crystals that grow on trees up his ass wouldn't give him that extra bullet. Whatever. Fuck. The explanations for "the giant mutant lava man" and "Andross is secretly a giant brain" and "James appearing and leading Fox out of the base" are just as extensive as Sauria falling apart and Krazoa spirits ;_; The James thing was different :< (except for...when Andross showed up and did basically the same thing again, and it was implied he was behind a lot of this to begin with, so clearly...I just confused myself). Yeah, exactly. No need to be confused tho because this is exactly one of the things I had in mind. Him being like that in the first place in Adventures is actually WORSE. I bet there are ways to bullshit our way out of the mess created but Andross was dead. I mean we saw his brain explode so the real Andross is definitely dead. But when he's already DEAD how would he....like revive himself? And for god's sake I wouldn't use James appearing at the end of Adventures as an explanation. It was obviously bending the rules very far for an emotional highpoint. Except they will soon establish that everyone can die and will haunt the Lylat System as ghosts for a little while before they will be kind of killed for good. Or some retarded shit :3 But back to Andross...even the controlled environment he's in at the end of 64 is gone in Adventures so he's obviously a supernatural kind of being that cheats death relatively easy in Adventures. I think that's pretty hard to swallow. The function of magic and technology in Adventures has always reminded me of Atlantis: The Lost Empire, because it's about a bunch of mercenaries with tanks and guns finding a lush, tropical world and encountering an ancient people who use a form of "magic" that powers their technology. That one..yeah! Knowing you I have the feeling you really, really enjoy it, huh? ;P Interestingly enough, which is kind of beside the point but still, Prince of Persia from 08 reminded me a lot of Adventures. It was that art style a little...The Prince's personality and his counterpart Elika kinda had this blue looking magic thing going on that reminded me of Krystal, at least visually. Man...Adventures' artstyle is so beautiful, dammit. hat made it clash in Adventures, however, was Fox's sudden reliance on magic. This is a character that has never used "magic" before, ever, and suddenly he's pretty much a goddamn wizard and never really acknowledges that HOLY SHIT, THERE'S MAGIC. Yeah, I feel you. This always made me feel like I'm missing something. Even tho Fox was clearly a fish out of water type character seeing how he got confused and even irritated with things sometimes (wow, we need an anthropomorphic Fox from space to relate to ) he didn't seem to be bothered with the fact that he can use magic now and stuff. That's so weird. Actually, if you avoided the word "magic" in Adventures and simply called it a "raw energy source", and the Spellstones "energy resonators" or something, suddenly, that sounds a lot more "scientific", doesn't it? The magic there is the "unobtanium" of Star Fox. They're different words for the same plot device function and they only seem different from each other based on whether or not you use some technobabble to describe it. Absolutely. But given the fact that the makers made the effort of calling these things SPELLstones and Krazoa SPIRITS is the equivalent of them being: It's really magic! or even if it isn't, we WANT you to think of magic, at least. 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CrypticQuery Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Just to jump in on these immense walls of text, a good bit of Dinosaur Planet footage was dug up by Gameinformer recently; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/09/16/pre-strarfox-adventure-dinosaur-planet-footage-appears-online.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's a very elemantary rule and I bet you weren't expecting something that simple which might have confused you. No need to be condescending. The only reason I got "confused" was that you were replying to something I was never actually talking about. My point had nothing to do with whether or not Adventures was the "right" route to take the series, but what they could have done to make the game fit better into the existing universe (which was already an extremely loose, cartoony setting to begin with). Whether or not you give a shit about James is completely and totally irrelevent to me saying "Adventures would've come off better if Fox used a gun instead of magic". The conversation is about Adventures itself, not whether or not it should exist, but an "it exists, this is how it could be improved on" way. You can argue till the cows come home on whether or not Adventures was "interesting" or "more in-universe" than a game about James, but that's a completely different discussion altogether (for the record I care way more about what Fox is doing here and now than James, and it annoys me when in other than a few specific situations people just don't leave the "my parents are dead" topic the fuck alone, especially considering that character arc was already resolved). Anyways, derail aside. It's cool footage Crazy but wasn't it already posted in the other topic? >: I like how Krystal pretty much hijacks Scales' galleon right off the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticQuery Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's cool footage Crazy but wasn't it already posted in the other topic? >: I like how Krystal pretty much hijacks Scales' galleon right off the bat. If it was then I apologize; I honestly have little to no idea. xD - And yup; a shame that it wasn't kept as its original creation. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Both topics are about like, the same thing, so don't feel bad, haha. I also like how there wasn't a goofy forced "dino language" in the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzz Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 No need to be condescending. D: Oh my god, my deepest apology if I came off like that! I wasn't trying to be rude, at all, just thought you maybe expected me to have a more sophisticated point but instead had something so elementary going on. sorry :< <3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 It's okay! Text vs tone and all that~ Miscommunications happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShutUpNavi Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Thanks for sharing all this info. That beta footage is great. Wow, I always thought that the Dino language was a leftover from Dinosaur Planet. Now that we know it isn't I have to wonder WTH they were thinking about having it in SFAd. I don't think it added anything to the game other than one or two gags so why even bother? Really as much as I love Adventures the whole game just felt wrong. Watching the videos I can see why things didn't jell with the Star Fox universe. Now I'm convinced DP only became SFAd due to Nintendo's business decisions, not because Miyamoto thought it would make a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manthony_Higgs Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 This is all pretty rad, but now I feel bad for Rare. They had this awesome game and nintendo stole it from them... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Monroe Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 MAN YOU GUYS I TURN MY BACK ON THIS THREAD AND IT BECOMES A TEXT SPAM WALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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