Starfox Character Discussion

[TrishaCat]

All right. I wanted to have a thread where we could discuss the characters of the Starfox series. Who's your favorite and least favorite? Who would you like to see more or less of? Why? Is there anything you wish they'd do with the characters? And, most importantly....

Will Slippy ever be a competent pilot? xD

 

You get the idea. I wanted to discuss the characters. Truth be told, I originally wanted to debate about whether or not a certain character was a good character or not, but I suppose creating this much broader thread will lead to that debate anyway.

Plus it'll give people more to talk about.

And yes, if a debate winds up starting, remember:

Keep it civil.

[Drewbz]

You might as well just call this the "Let's talk about Krystal" thread.

[TrishaCat]

Not necessarily. Indeed, I wanted to debate about that character, but there are other chracters I wouldn't mind talking about.

My favorite character: Falco.

Character I want to see more of: Fay and Miyu from Starfox 2 Because I think they are really cool.

Least favorite: Pigma

 

But yeah, you guessed it. I wanted to debate about that chracter. A lot of people in this fandom have strong opinions of either loving her or hating her from what I've seen. People say she does nothing. I say none of the characters really do anything, by that logic, except for Fox.

They all fight. They all aid in the destruction of the enemy in some manner, be it by fighting or by some special ability.

They all have their backstories. I think. To this, I actually don't know much if anything about Slippy's history. Krystal's history is messed up and broken. Falco's doesn't give enough detail, but we know quite a bit about him, luckily. And Fox? I know nothing of him except of his father.

I like pretty much all the characters, so its bugged me when people complain about the newcomer. Its like when people complained about Raiden joining the MGS series. People didn't seem to like him until he became an epic cyborg assassin thingy. But I don't like him as much anymore because of the cyborg assassin thingy. But I'm getting off topic....

EDIT: I would add that I would LOVE to learn a little more about Fay and Miyu, as I know little of Starfox 2 but what little I've read about it. Also, why does Wolf want to kill Fox? Did it have something to do with Fox's father?

And did anyone else think that Falco leaving the team didn't make sense, even after reading Farewell, Beloved Falco?

[Drewbz]

"They all have their back stories."

 

 

I personally think this is false. I think nearly everyone in the series is missing a back story. Where did Krystal come from? Hell, where did Fox come from? What happened to his mom? That's why I want to see more RPG elements in the Star Fox series. RPG elements usually mean they have to develop some kind of story. And with so much being open as far as character origins, anyone that wanted to take Star Fox in that direction could have a field day with the plot. I just want to see more development for everyone. ON SCREEN. I'm tired of so much happening between games. Make it happen in the game. Krystal and Fox get together? Make it happen on screen. They break up? Make it happen on screen. Slippy gets a girl? Make it happen on screen. Peppy leaves the team? Make it happen on screen. It's obvious that the story and lore of the franchise has taken a back seat all these years, but with the way games are headed in this generation, I don't know if they can keep going down that path and expect to sell their game. They can still have the onrails shooting in massive open space that we all love, but it wouldn't ruin the game to develop stories and relationships.

[Drasiana]

I sort of agree with you in the sense that Krystal kind of gets more flack than the other characters, sometimes without much of a justification--Fox's relationship with Wolf is as badly-developed and unexplained as his and Krystal's--but I would argue that the other team members do more than her, from a gameplay perspective. Falco takes out tougher asteroids and enemies, Slippy gives you the boss health gauge, and Krystal tells you shit you already know. If, say, enemies' weak points disappeared if Krystal was not on the team, that would justify her role, but as it stands she just kind of does double-duty with Peppy, only interjecting with "oh no fox be safe" every other line.

 

I don't like that people criticize Krystal for "being sexy". She can be sexy. The problem I have with her is that she's introduced as a prize, gives up her personal quest because ???, doesn't really have any meaningful interaction with anyone other than Fox ("meaningful" in the most bare-bones of ways), and only exists to fawn over Fox to the point where one of Command's endings results in an entire solar system demonizing her because she doesn't want to date him, after he hurt her. I kind of hope that ending was a tongue-in-cheek jab at the fandom but I kind of doubt it all the same.

 

To be fair, though, all post-64 new characters were kind of bad. Lucy, Amanda, Dash and Panther all just kind of show up without explanation as really obvious plot devices or extraneous pieces. I can kind of choke down Lucy, but Amanda is nothing but a gag and doesn't even have the honor of a last name. Dash was basically "Andrew, But Pretty" and Panther was more of the same, because why keep two potentially interesting characters with established history on Star Wolf, when you could have a random Spanish stereotype whose existence completely screws up the rivalry dynamic between the teams?

 

I agree with you about Falco. Even though I liked Farewell Beloved Falco a lot, he just seems like he got forced into the "brooding guy" role and we never really know why he's like that, he just broods for the sake of brooding. We don't need a deep dark explanation for it, in fact I'd rather we not see oodles of expository backstory for anyone, but at this point it feels like the characters are being forced into certain roles rather than anything naturally motivating them into such.

 

And with that I'll say that my favourite character is...Andrew.

 

Yeah. I dunno, I like him because he's a huge fuckup and has massive threat potential at the same time, and I think in that regard Andrew accidentally became one of the most complex characters in the series. In Star Fox 64 he was Fox's antithesis: while Fox did live up to James' legacy and learned to follow in his footsteps, Andrew failed at doing the same with Andross. See, Andrew is immature. He still relies on Andross and the memory of Andross and wants to be him to the point of mimicry (the robot ship in Assault) and this is his undoing, because he cannot be Andross but his attempts to do so just distract him from discovering and being himself, something Fox has actually done. He blindly follows an idealized version of his parental figure and takes any slight against Andross incredibly personally, showing that he's made of sensitivity and overcompensation and he'd just be so interesting to use more, as an antagonist and character foil to Fox (which he already is), instead of just a one-off boss. This might seem like an overanalysis of a goofy character but honestly I am working with dialogue and events that have actually happened in the series: we know what motivates Andrew, we know his goal. That's better than we can say for Wolf, or Falco, or Krystal, or half a dozen other characters more respected by the series.

 

Pigma's in a similar boat, though more in that they didn't go as far as they could have with his relationships with other characters. Fox's "meh" disposition towards him in Assault, rather than the YOU BASICALLY KILLED MY DAD WHAT THE FUCK reaction it warranted, was disappointing at best (and Pigma's motives in that game were pretty WTF anyway). I feel like he and Andrew got the shaft because they weren't as badass/attractive as others, even though they are by far more interesting characters.

 

As I said in one of the Command topics, Andrew easily could have been Dash in Command. Naive dude trying to clear Andross' name is pretty consistent with something Andrew would do, but we have to give it to the prettier-yet-inexplicabley-Cornerian monkey boy instead? Ugh Dash go away

 

I'm also disappointed with the way Fox has gone in the series but this post is long enough already. Christ, I talk a lot.

[Drewbz]

I just feel like when I play Star Fox I'm being teased. There's MASSIVE potential for an incredible story in this series. I know I'm in the minority when I say I want Star Fox to take a turn for deeper lore, but I do. I think a deep story would revive this franchise. But I've always been a fan of games that are pretty much interactive movies. (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. etc.) I like plot and backstory. I like development. I like deep relationships between characters. I also like getting to know the characters. I like developing feelings for the characters. I want to be immersed. Star Fox has the potential to offer all of that, but I'm afraid they'll never do it simply because it's never been about the story in the series.

[Drasiana]

I think the problem with Command is that it conflated "deep" with melodrama. Star Fox could continue to be the fun, sorta-campy space cowboy ride that everyone initially fell in love with while extrapolating on the characters and history of Lylat. It's why I would love so much for there to be a more RPG-structured game; if you get NPCs to interact with and books to read (ala Elder Scrolls) then you can build upon what already exists without distracting from the main story.

 

The trick is finding a tactful way to integrate all these characters and their backstories and relationships, and this is why I think it might only be possible with a reboot. With so many characters and unanswered questions you really run the risk of turning the corner into Exposition City. "Why, Falco is broody because his brother died ten years ago because he didn't do a thing" and "Fox, I've hated you ever since our fathers were rivals twenty years ago" and so on and so forth. Not every character needs a DARK PAST either, which is something a lot of people don't seem to grasp.

 

I also wouldn't say the series has never been about the story. The story is a big part of it. The problem is that the story has never been well-done, not since 64. While the story in that was simple, it at least had a point A and point B for Fox and everything was simple and tight. But the following games started adding really half-baked themes, setting up character interactions only to drop them like hot-cakes, and so on and so forth. It was like a bunch of people who really wanted it to be plot-driven but weren't entirely sure how stories actually work.

 

Star Fox does have a setup involving interesting and diverse characters but thanks to the third-party developer hopping the writers have been clearly trying to add a story while being too afraid to develop their own characters for the sake of not stepping on Nintendo's toes. They're trying to progress the plot without progressing the characters, hence why all the character relationships and turning points are only ever implied. As you can plainly see, this is not a very effective tactic...

[TrishaCat]

To combat your Krystal argument, she does kinda do stuff though. She did actually find enemy weak points including causing the enemy boss battle bar in a level or two in Assault, if I remember correctly. My theory is that perhaps Slippy does that with machine enemies or vehicles, and Krystal does it with living organic enemies, as was necessary in Assault.

Also, agreed on Command having problems and Starfox needing to take the time to devlop a great story that good and tight.

[Drewbz]

I think Star Fox could impliment a story for the characters without having to reboot, but it would take the games having meaningful cutscenes.  Mass Effect type cutscenes. Not necessarily RPG decision-making cutscenes, but acts that are played out. I think that's the only way you can really develop a character without really forcing a story. Let the player see the reasoning behind decision X or their motives behind a certain relationship. It may not be the easiest way, and there are certainly other ways you can do it, but having things play out in front of the player would by far be the more seamless and and easier to swallow than a bit of dialogue vaguely wrapping a plot. Adventures somewhat started down that path, but the story in that game was so thin it didn't really do much.

[Drasiana]

Yeah but everything you just said is pretty much WHY we need a reboot. All these important character bits--Fox and Krystal's relationship, Star Wolf, etc--is all stuff that's already there. The problem is it's been developed off-screen. Any linear installments in the series would pretty much warrant lots of flashback and exposition over stuff that has already happened, we were just never shown.

 

To combat your Krystal argument, she does kinda do stuff though. She did actually find enemy weak points including causing the enemy boss battle bar in a level or two in Assault, if I remember correctly. My theory is that perhaps Slippy does that with machine enemies or vehicles, and Krystal does it with living organic enemies, as was necessary in Assault.

Also, agreed on Command having problems and Starfox needing to take the time to devlop a great story that good and tight.

 

It wasn't necessary in Assault. The enemy weak points were painfully obvious whether or not Krystal was on your team. You did NOT need Krystal to say "hey maybe shoot the giant pink glowing spot". If those giant pink glowing spots disappeared if Krystal were shot down, that would be something, but they're there regardless of whether or not she's in your party so she actually doesn't have a gameplay function. I think Peppy gives you suggestions anyway, if I'm remembering right, so again, double duty. There isn't anything unique to her.

[TCPeppyTc]

I also wish they would delve into Pigma and Andrew's expulsion from Starwolf. I guess Pigma got too greedy, but how so in what way? Is he more treacherous than even Wolf or Leon?

 

Andrew too. Was he expelled for incompetence, or was he on such an ego trip that he left himself and founded his own army?

 

With Wolf Id like his character resolved. Is he the moustache twirling captain hook villain from Starfox 64? Or is he the "badass" biker/ space pirate from later games?

 

Peppy needs to step out of retirement ( he's not an old man. Only about 45-50, which is now considered a fairly spry age)

 

Just a few ideas, Ill think of more later..

[TrishaCat]

Peppy did say he'd retire in Assault.

Let's hope he actually does.

[Drasiana]

I think they actually did explain that Andrew left to fix up the Venomian army but Pigma wasn't really elaborated on. Also agreed about Peppy. He's like, 50, not some decrepit senior citizen.

[TrishaCat]

Hmm...Well, perhaps, but he himself isn't very, erm...peppy. He sounds rather old, and he seems like the type who's been through a lot.

On the other hand, I don't actually mind him sticking around in the Starfox team longer.

I just want the games to not contradict themselves.

[Drewbz]

I wouldn't mind them skimming over explanations of relationships. I mean we all know how those work. Boy fox met girl fox. I was talking more in the sense of developing a REAL backstory for the characters. It wouldn't be too terribly difficult, and in doing so they could also come up with an explanation for Fox and Wolf's relationship.

[Drasiana]

Eh, the games honestly contradict themselves as-is. Portraying Peppy closer to his actual age wouldn't be any worse than his depiction in Adventures as completely geriatric.

 

As for the relationships...

 

It actually isn't as simple as "boy fox met girl fox", and to keep it that simple is condescending to the audience and continuing the trend of Krystal being just a lust object. What really happened is that a renown space mercenary encountered the last survivor of an alien civilization aaaaaaaaand never acknowledged this. Why should we believe that they're a couple outside of the barebones and pathetic "same species" argument? What do they have in common, what do they even like about each other? All they do is tell each other to BE SAFE thirty thousand times but they really don't seem to have a relationship beyond that, wheras there is a bit more development between the other characters in the team.

 

Anyway, as for developing relationships and explaining backstory...

 

 

The problem is that interjecting a ton of backstory really deviates from the pace of the linear plot. We don't want to spend too much time dicking around over things that happened before the events of the game. What I'd like to see, though, is a series of Farewell, Beloved Falco-style comics that briefly touch on the histories of the characters. A Star Fox: Origins type thing, if you will. They'd be their own little contained stories that manage to showcase what we need without derailing the main storyline to talk about it.

[TrishaCat]

@Drasiana, I think you've got it.  All the stuff about Krystal's backstory is outright ignored in the games, and this is indeed a problem. A Starfox Origins sort of thing is indeed what we need.

[TCPeppyTc]

You are right Dras. But there are reasons why Krystal would want to hang on to Fox. He saved her from Andross, and is a similar species to her. She might also be a gold digger and want to be with Fox for the money and prestige(JK). Also, aside from Starfox she has nowhere really else to go. 

 

Id like to see the whole Starwolf thing resolved as well. Were they an auxillary force, formed by Andross to stop Starfox? Were they always Space Pirates? Are there many space pirates like Starfox/wolf hanging around the Lylat system?

 

I personally think its remarkable they stay together. Like given their personalities how Wolf, Leon and Panther could form a trusting working relationship?  If we dont get a game that does that, at least Fred's cartoon will address maybe some of these questions

[Drasiana]

So theoretically I should revolve my existence around some dude just because he saved me and is human? Nah, that's not a very good reason. Fox and Krystal don't really have any chemistry, they're forced into a relationship because the game figured it needed one, and in the process it completely forgot about the fact that Krystal was actually doing something before she ran into Fox. The whole "figuring out why my entire planet got destroyed" thing seems a little more important than getting laid. As far as having "nowhere else to go", she seemed pretty set on going wherever she needed to in order to investigate Cerinia's destruction, and what home means to her and her seeking of such is never once elaborated on. We spend more time in subsequent games whining on about James still than we ever do acknowledging that Krystal's entire civilization was destroyed, something a lot more traumatic than being stuck in a prism prison (heh) for a few days for no reason. Everything Krystal could have been was shoved to the side in order to make her "the girlfriend", we never get a sense of her existence outside of that role. Her interactions with everyone other than Fox are either too vague to be considered interactions or someone hitting on her. If she was simply removed from the game there would really be no change at all, considering Peppy provides the same gameplay role, and Fox would have had to collect the Krazoa regardless of her existence anyway. Even the "I sense a distress signal coming from Sauria bwoowokodfg" thing in Assault was a weird distraction from the plot and total filler at best, without even the benefit of having a boss fight. Her demotion to "Fox's girlfriend" is exceptionally frustrating with the consideration that she has this implied, giant swathe of mythology behind her that's not even acknowledged, yet has to be to justify her existence at all.

 

I agree with Star Wolf needing more elaboration too. They were deliciously hateful in 64 and then...weren't. And we don't know why. The whole "sudden wish to be heroes" thing came out of nowhere when their previous plans involved giddily working for the guy trying to conquer Lylat and cause mass death and destruction and nothing really brings about this 180. It's also a little sad that I get the best sense of their relationships with each other from Brawl instead of any of the games...

[Drewbz]

Nothing is more important than getting laid...

 

But on a serious note, I don't really think we can agree on a certain aspect needing to be worked on. Not because we differ in opinion, but because EVERYTHING needs to be worked on. It's blatantly obvious that story was never the main focus and is still questionable at best. Until the developers of the series feel a need to develop even a simple story, we will be talking about a lack thereof for decades.

[TrishaCat]

I think I'd like to add that I don't see how someone could have chemistry with someone else. To me its always been: You love someone. There's not any reason for it, it doesn't make sense, you just do. I thought that's how love worked.

But yes, backstories on everyone is needed.

[TCPeppyTc]

This isn't an urgent development, but Id like to see their names explained in some way.

 

Falco Lombardi? Wolf O'Donnel? Leon Powalski?

 

Is there some space Italy, space Ireland, and space Poland/Russia from which those names originated?

 

Lol probably not, But it would be kinda funny if we found out anyway!

[Drasiana]

I think I'd like to add that I don't see how someone could have chemistry with someone else. To me its always been: You love someone. There's not any reason for it, it doesn't make sense, you just do. I thought that's how love worked.

 

Well, uh, it's not, so take it from experience.

 

 

Until the developers of the series feel a need to develop even a simple story, we will be talking about a lack thereof for decades.

 

But we're not talking about the lack of story at all, we're talking about the shortcomings of the stories that do exist and fall short for numerous, explainable and easily fixable reasons.

 

On another note I'd really like to see the guys from Farewell, Beloved Falco again. They were a fun group.

[unoservix]

I think I'd like to add that I don't see how someone could have chemistry with someone else. To me its always been: You love someone. There's not any reason for it, it doesn't make sense, you just do. I thought that's how love worked.

so i see you're quite the fan of the Twilight series

[Arashikage]

I'm sorry if this doesn't contribute anything to the argument current, but I wanted to put my two cents in about Krystal and Kursed.  I wrote this a long time ago on another forum, but I think it's decent enough.  

 

Krystal started as a character from a completely different game, she was supposed to be a cat too. Rare went to Nintendo with their design for "Dinosaur Planet" and Nintendo said "Screw you Rare, we're gonna make this a Star Fox game, that'll REALLY rake in the dough" and it did. Anyway, no, I don't think that Krystal really fits in, if Nintendo hadn't rushed her story with stereotypes and cliche's, then sure, she'd fit in more.

Now on to Kursed. Kursed in my opinion is not a badass. I agree with Waffles's post almost wholeheartedly. If she were a REAL badass she wouldn't be afraid to confront Fox about these issues they had. And maybe if the story thereafter actually led somewhere, instead of some poorly thought out, halfassed cliffhanger, maybe, just maybe, she'd be a bit more likeable. Bounty Hunter = badass ONLY if you're talking about someone who has actually demonstrated their skill, IE: Jango Fett, Boba Fett, and Samus Aran. Kursed however, has not.

The regular characters have more story than Kursed and Krystal combined in my opinion. You actually know why Fox fights, you actually find out why each member is on the team. However, Krystal, you don't know anything about. She goes to some planet called Sauria... Why? Let's ask Mr Nintendo Dev, shall we?
Nintendo Dev: "Uhh, telepathy.. Yeah... Uhh, she is telepathic because she's a princess from another planet... Called Cerinia... Annd... All the residents of this planet have telepathy... Yeah."
Oh, really? I'd like to go there some time, where is it?
Nintendo Dev: "Uhh you can't... It's uhh... It was blown up by Andross, including Krystal's family... Yeah"
Ooookay.... So she went around looking for Andross in search of vengeance? The same way that the Star Fox team did?
Nintendo Dev: "No, oh no no no, she.... Uhh, she just got a telepathic signal of a planet in distress... Oh and she speaks the language of the indigenous people... Because she's telepathic, yeah"
Well screw you Nintendo, way to promise a good story and let us down with the actual reasoning behind why she's there.

Anyway, my point is, Kursed = not badass, and Story =/= badass. Story = good character, Bounty Hunter = badass if you prove it, and Krystal =/= a well thought out, or fitting character.

And I haven't even GOTTEN to Kursed's story. Basically, she joins Star Wolf, why? Because Fox wouldn't let her fight, and she joins Star Wolf. Why? I dunno, it made sense at the time? Apparently, bad people aren't so bad when your ex boyfriend hates them? I don't know, there isn't much logic behind it. But here's where it really gets you: She joins Star Wolf, and DOESN'T expect to be called a traitor. Now Star Fox is really famous, they're known about all throughout Corneria. Star Wolf is also well known, especially as the main enemy of Star Fox. Now, put two and two together, how can you lead me to believe Krystal wouldn't believe she would be called a traitor and generally hated like the rest of the freaking Star Wolf team? Now, that's not the worst part. The worst part is that when she found out she was being hated, and people were jeering her as she walked by, she LEFT. She freaking left her problems behind, went to start some new life doing something only briefly mentioned. And why did she leave her life behind and start a new identity? Because people were making fun of her. Not only is this a WTF moment, this is a sad moment for anyone with morals. If you screw up, and people ridicule it for you, you don't go and LEAVE and start a new identity, you suck it up and deal with it. You screwed up, this is your punishment, and now the love of your life won't even look at you anymore, He tried to wipe you away with booze and tears, and you just sit there behind your little console and watch. You see him once more on Kew, but what do you do? You stand there as he walks on by. I hope you're happy Kursed. Here's to you *Swills*