The Mary Sue Litmus Test

[Arashikage]

So for those of you who don't know, a Mary Sue is a character that is perfect in every way, there are no faults with them and they can not do wrong.  If they seem to do wrong, something happens in the story to make them justified.  Everybody likes them, and those that don't like them are shown the error of their ways in due time.  

 

In truth, these characters aren't all that fun to RP with, and they could use some fixing.  There's a tool however that you can use to determine whether or not your character is a Mary Sue.  

 

I present to you, the Mary Sue Litmus Test http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

 

I urge RPers to take this test and post your results here, I can start even.  

 

I put Kage through the test, and he got a 15.  Maybe could stand a bit of spicing up for an RP character, but doesn't have a problem at all.  

 

What are your guys's results?

[Snys93]

HONESTLY...

 

  I can't think of any Starfox character that fits that description, expect for Peppy Hare. He is the only I can think of.

[Redeemer]

So for those of you who don't know, a Mary Sue is a character that is perfect in every way, there are no faults with them and they can not do wrong.  If they seem to do wrong, something happens in the story to make them justified.  Everybody likes them, and those that don't like them are shown the error of their ways in due time.  

 

In truth, nobody likes these characters, and they need fixing.  There's a tool however that you can use to determine whether or not your character is a Mary Sue.  

 

I present to you, the Mary Sue Litmus Test http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

 

I urge RPers to take this test and post your results here, I can start even.  

 

I put Kage through the test, and he got a 15.  Maybe could stand a bit of spicing up for an RP character, but doesn't have a problem at all.  

 

What are your guys's results?

 

This test is super long! I used an OC I last used about a year ago and I got 17 points. Also I think it picks out a lot of stuff that most characters, as in real characters belonging to a franchise, already have, so I don't know if this test is really fair considering. So much stuff has been done in actual franchises, it would be hard to avoid them all, wouldn't it?

 

Also, regarding an OC, I don't think people should care if nobody likes them. If they have a character they themselves like, that doesn't result in unfair RPing and plot-twisting, then why fix it? It doesn't bother me personally. I think Mary-Sues only become annoying when the players expect special treatment during an RP.

 

The reason I say this is because I've seen a lot of people on other sites, in particular dA, who have OCs that like, have wings, and are orphaned, and have super magic healing or telepathic powers, but are still chirpy and unusually likable etc. etc., and they get a lot of shit for it. I just think it's sad, they're not harming anyone, and most of the time they're just kids as well. Offering a Mary-Sue test is fair enough, but I think that stating that no one will like their character if it IS a Mary-Sue and that it needs fixing is a little harsh.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Redeemer
God my grammar is awful, apologies.

[Arashikage]

Well yes, that's what I was getting at.  When you write a story and your character is a self-insert gets-all-the-girls son-of-Captain-Kirk does-everything-right half-human-half-fox-half-lizard-half-ape shapeshifting eye-color-changing great-with-a-handgun-or-anything-they-get-their-hands-on character, the story won't be very interesting, it'll just result in them being awesome and outshining the canon characters or other RPers.

 

And also, if an OC has wings or was orphaned or uses a few of the cliches that the test describes, that's fine.  My character has to deal with something he did in the past that wasn't his fault(Mostly), and that's a cliche.  You can always have those things, just don't use too many of them.  Does that make sense?  Like, just because you use a cliche doesn't make your character bad.

 

I'll admit I was a little harsh in the beginning, but I fixed that.  I didn't mean to sound harsh, just the more someone is educated on these issues, the less problems that exist.

[Redeemer]

I think that, in an RP, if a Mary-Sue begins to outshine anyone, then the player can be PMed and talked to about it. I think the most problematic thing can actually be how the player expects to be treated, in which case it's worth revising their method of playing. If they really like their character, do they still need to change it? For example, your Lizard Kirk Weapon Master Stud (XD) might be super annoying because he's so perfect at everything, but would it be okay to play as him if those cliches were left OUT of the RP?

 

I'm just saying this because many people here are pretty attached to their OCs, and some are actually their fursonas, I don't want anyone to suddenly feel self-conscious about them due to this test, detailed and thorough as it is. x3

[CrypticQuery]

Admittedly, the sheer comprehensiveness of this test is daunting - though because of it, one can safely assume that valid answers will be provided.  Thanks for posting it, Kage; I'm glad that all of my main characters were under 20, with most coming in at around the 10 mark.  [That could just be the hideously limited characterization and playtime I've had with them though, xD]

 

With that said, I'll undoubtedly be able to improve my roster because of it. 

[Drasiana]

Shorter Mary-Sue Litmus Test:

 

Does your character break the rules of the universe or cause a drastic alteration of established characterizations?

• Yes
• No

If the answer is no, then congratulations, you passed the test!

[Vy'drach]

Test also asks too many questions that are too general, really.

 

Dras has it right with what a Mary Sue is. It breaks the established universe and its laws. If it doesn't do that, it's not a Mary Sue. It can still be poorly thought out and obnoxious, but that's another matter.

 

For shits and giggles, I used the character from the fanfic I wrote some time ago, scored a 58. Thing is, he's not a universe breaker nor a god amongst men type deal. In an RP, if I did those, he'd be a strong combat character because that is like, the sole thing he does Oh yeah, it was an AvP/Star Fox crossover type deal so that may make it a bit more clear. Anyways, all he's equipped to do, both literally and figuratively, is kill things. Outside of combat he'd be mediocre at best for a category. Even in combat he's limited due pretty much an absence of ranged weaponry and no sense of self preservation, making him as much of an asset as a liability.

[Arashikage]

Well the test isn't perfect. I didn't expect it to be. But its a very good thing to tell you how your character might stand as a character. Not all the questions apply but many of them do. It depends on the person and character.

[Cage Blackpaw]

Yeah, there are certainly limits to being a Mary Sue, but I think it makes sense--in some situations--to have your characters be above-par.  There are, of course, those ordinary characters that tend to fill casual roleplays, but in plot-intensive/fantasy/etc. roleplays, I think it makes sense for some characters to have a little more flare.  I mean, that's why you're writing about them.

 

Of course, with all that said, I have cringed so many times dealing with some characters.  Like I said, there are definitely limits, and some Sue characters are far too Sue...ish.

[ballisticwaffles]

Oh god the amount of excuses that this thread keeps giving up is immensely amusing to me. 

[Vy'drach]

Oh god the amount of excuses that this thread keeps giving up is immensely amusing to me. 

 

 

Or... the term "Mary Sue" is one of the most misused words out there and is often thrown about incorrectly leading to a problem with definition.

[ballisticwaffles]

Or i have seen this thread excuse every single one of the charecters that fails the test and it makes me tingle in places i shouldn't.

 

I know what a Mary Sue is, i know how to define it and recognize one.

[Arashikage]

 

Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.

 

TV Tropes Wiki doesn't get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

 

Straight from the good book, there's your definition of Mary Sue.  It's a loose term, and there is no set definition, however, there are characters most everyone can agree to be a Mary Sue.

[Cage Blackpaw]

lol Don't be a d, Waffles.

[Drasiana]

Who, exactly, is being "defended" here?

 

The point of defining Mary Sue that way is not to "defend" anyone, it's to give an actual reason as to why the traits of your standard Mary Sue are detrimental, how "Mary Sue" isn't synonymous with "character you just don't like", and how an online quiz is not exactly going to have the best understanding of the intricacies and context of the specific story your character is working in.

 

In actuality a lot of the questions asked by that test do, indeed, fall under the umbrella of ensuring your character isn't world-breaking but it never really explains that that's the main reason why it puts us off to read these characters and thus people will continue to write shit characters because they don't understand the fundamentals of their character being shit, assuming them to be related wholly to superficial aspects rather than the much larger, important scope of worldbuilding.

[Vy'drach]

He's referring, at least partially, to me saying the character I used from a fanfic I wrote some time ago for shits and giggles (using him in the "test" for laughs that is) isn't a Mary Sue because he's not contradicting anything in the known canon or breaking the rules of the universe.

 

 

I know what a Mary Sue is, i know how to define it and recognize one.

 

 

You know a definition of it, not the definition of it, because there is no objective definition of it. Now quit being a dick and trying to instigate something.

[Arashikage]

Oh boy this blew up, could we please not resort to name calling?  Pretty please?

[ballisticwaffles]

Oh sure, i have an alternative opinion of the whole matter and thus must be attempting to instigate something from a comment i said above. One which wasnt even direct at you at all. God i love the internet.

[Cage Blackpaw]

Waffles, you have a very antagonistic way of posting your opinions.

[CrypticQuery]

Alright, fellas - break it up.  There'll be different definitions and views of just what a "Mary Sue" is that varies upon perspective of the individual.  No need to resort to name-calling or argument. 

[ballisticwaffles]

And to swing this all the way back several posts ago, this is my source on a Mary Sue, the same place the test comes from.

 

http://www.springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htm

 

 

As to a score i get with a charecter, Balsa recieved a 23. But as it has been stated above, the test is hardly all encompassing. Which it doesn't need to be. A MAry Sue is a state of atitude more than it is a definable adjective.

[Drasiana]

edit: beaten

 

What is even going ON.

 

To continue to talk about this test and how, yes, writing quizzes on the internet can be just as flawed as what they're "criticizing":

 

I just did the test for Mulder from the X-Files. He got a 69. But very, very few of the questions took into account the context of the little boxes I was clicking, like the fact that "Mulder has a lot of sexy scenes" was a fairly revolutionary bone thrown to female viewers or the fact that all the "skills he was the best at" were integral to him being assigned The X-Files in the first place. Also he's an FBI agent so being good at FBI things isn't outlandish, but again, the test doesn't account for any of this.

 

Here's a weird-ass question:

 

 

 

Does your character end up in a tight spot and discover that xe has really cool, yet completely unforeshadowed powers that were dormant and/or unknown before? (Does not count if this is how the story begins.)

 

This might be a cliche, but cliche extends far beyond the scope of Mary Suedom and there are potentially completely legitimate reasons and ways that this can happen. Sure, if your character is just randomly gaining powers at the last moment that aren't tied in whatsoever to any respect of their character arc, that's pretty crappy writing, but those are important qualifiers completely absent from this portion of the test.

 

 

 

Does your character frequently carry knives, daggers, or other little sharp pointy objects concealed within xir clothing for no other reason than that they might come in handy?

 

What other reason is there? I carry a pocket knife because it "might come in handy", am I a Mary Sue?

 

tl;dr don't rely on a test to write your characters for you, use some critical thinking skills and don't let some illy-defined catch-all term invented by fanfiction run the way you write because it will only make you self-conscious about the LEAST of your concerns.

[Geo Stelar]

I got a freakin' high score of 81. It could be because I didn't follow the instructions properly, or I need to RP with my character more. 

[Redeemer]

Or i have seen this thread excuse every single one of the charecters that fails the test and it makes me tingle in places i shouldn't.

 

I know what a Mary Sue is, i know how to define it and recognize one.

 

You came in here looking to provoke people man, don't go down that road. You're not even sharing an opinion, you're just outright labelling other people's OCs. This test covers everything that can happen to a fictional character, everything is Mary-Sue according to it. You can't "fail" this test, it just judges everyone according to someone's opinion (whoever wrote it, that is). No one should judge their own work based on a test, it just tars everyone with the same brush and is therefore inaccurate.

 

Now I don't RP anymore and I don't really have my own OC, but I still value how people create characters to express themselves. You really have no right to come in here and accuse someone eles' creation of failing an overly designed test that labels even real characters as Mary-Sues (thanks for the Mulder comparison Dras, food for thought there).

 

If I see anymore bullshit in here insulting other people's creations, I'm going to start dishing out warnings. Insulting someone's OC is as bad as insulting their artwork, which is against the rules here. Express yourself as you will, without fear of being judged as a Mary-Sue or whatever. Kage posted this test for fun, curiosity and interest, not for people to judge others.

 

 

Kage, if you're worried about your topic at all, feel free to write to me if you want it cleaned up or anything.

 

Also, if people all start using certain guidelines to avoid being Mary-Sue, they'll all end up similar anyway, thus possibly redefining the term of Mary-Sue, which as Vy said, is already overused and misunderstood. I think people should stop caring about other peoples' stuff unless it's affecting them directly, i.e. bringing difficulty to an RP.