Arwing Strength?

[TCPeppyTc]

How is it that four arwings have more defensive and offensive ( bombs, twin lasers, blue lasers, etc.) than the whole cornerian army? You'd think that if mercenaries who are paid only sporadically can afford such fancy ships, so can Cornerian army?

[CrypticQuery]

Item #5023855B-A on the Discrepancies in Logic Present in the Star Fox Universe list can be viewed above.

[Snys93]

   If there was any logic, the Arwing must be an experimental prototype. Maybe the CDF managed to create only four prototypes before funding ran out. The G-diffuser does sound pretty expensive.

 

   Thrusting that aside, its just a convenience on the part of the developer to provide a player with a kickass plane to shoot down less advanced ships.

[Ori]

Thrusting that aside, its just a convenience on the part of the developer to provide a player with a kickass plane to shoot down less advanced ships.

 

The thing isn't about the Arwing being exceedingly good or the other fighters being horribly made in a cave out of a box of scraps. It's about how the developers want the game to be played.

 

Letting the player have advantage, thus making the game beatable is the thing, and so is the whole point of the latter fighters of the Ace Combat games, or the unbalanced wins-losses for the heroes in the Sonic series, or how even the environment conspires for Gordon Freeman to kick ass of Combine in Half-Life 2...

 

As a matter of fact, games need to be 'stupid' (as in AI or level planning) enough to be beaten, but 'smart' enough to make the player feel 'smarter' when they win, maybe with that 'aha!' feeling of realization. However, if a game is so stupid to the point of the battle system having just a bunch of enemies standing still, waiting for their comrade to imminently die against the player and THEN jump into combat a-la FailScout, they must think the Maginot Line was a good idea. Sounds familiar? I think so. On the other hand though, Perfect-Play AI isn't quite a good option unless you're making a gamemode that's supposed to test how long the player lasts against it. (I.E. 'Survival mode' or whatever)

 

Railed shooters essentially are the best example of suicidal AI since most enemies just fly into your direction and eventually die. 'Hard' or 'realistic' air combat shooters (or simulators) provide better AI for a challenge that can take some time to be beaten, or have enough quantities to disorientate the player while they're trying at the same time to avoid damage and take out the targets. But no game provides a rival that will equal or overcome the player, much less adapt to it. That would be Perfect-Play AI.

 

Though if we follow the logic that SF provides, every enemy fighter is made of paper, or rather, paper would last more, while the Arwings & co. will last to the heat death of the universe. And possibly later.

 

How does that relate to the Arwing? Absolutely doesn't. But it does relate to the Imperial Red Shirt Stormtroopers that we got on SF games.

[Thu'um]

We have a pretty decent guess at the arwing's capabilities versus a normal fighters when command came out, and they weren't that much more impressive. Its probably just suggesting the skill of the SF team. We even know Bill flies the standard, and he is a formidable foe too.  

[Hidi]

Well they were good enough to add the touch in Adventures and Assault that as a result of constant peace, their equipment fell into disrepair. That is one thing to be noted, though it didn't seem to stop them from ceasing to run all together.

[psy_commando]

Well, in the original canon at least, it was said that the arwing was equipped with pretty much the biggest weapons they could fit on it, and it was said to match the firepower of a cruiser.. Not sure what that means exactly. Also, the smart-bomb or nova bomb, is said to have been made for taking on "battleships" and "super weapons".

 

But another important thing is that in SF SNES, you're never really taking on the entire force, you're just dashing through to get to the objective. The best example is the Space Armada. You see all those huge ships in the background that you can't even attack. And you take out 3 ships, and the battleship at the end.

There's also on route 2 on planet venom when you go through some kind of highway tunnel instead of flying in the open. And a lot of other levels go the same way.

 

Plus, I remember reading in either the MFP or US or Japanese manual that the arwing was made for extended operations beyond enemy lines, relying on its stealth and on energy converters and generator for power or something like that. Desura and Bear where both using arwing while spying behind enemy lines.

 

I can't find all my notes on it... If someone here can read Japanese feel free to confirm !

But here are some of my notes along with some meh, translations : https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ks27ab2n6uu4nza/P6ucIbh5DY

[StarFoxfan-FUR_ever]

The thing isn't about the Arwing being exceedingly good or the other fighters being horribly made in a cave out of a box of scraps. It's about how the developers want the game to be played.

 

As a matter of fact, games need to be 'stupid' (as in AI or level planning) enough to be beaten, but 'smart' enough to make the player feel 'smarter' when they win, maybe with that 'aha!' feeling of realization. However, if a game is so stupid to the point of the battle system having just a bunch of enemies standing still, waiting for their comrade to imminently die against the player and THEN jump into combat a-la FailScout, they must think the Maginot Line was a good idea. Sounds familiar? I think so. On the other hand though, Perfect-Play AI isn't quite a good option unless you're making a gamemode that's supposed to test how long the player lasts against it. (I.E. 'Survival mode' or whatever)

 

How does that relate to the Arwing? Absolutely doesn't. But it does relate to the Imperial Red Shirt Stormtroopers that we got on SF games.

 

In terms of the incredibly stupid AI you just mentioned, I would like to direct everyone's attention to SF Adventures. Oh no, there's at least 5 of those guys who are looking for Fox. That's ok, they'll just stand around him in a circle while one after the other takes on Fox and is defeated without any support from their allies.

 

On the other hand, you have SF Assault, which actually did a decent job of having the on-foot enemies swarm you if they got the chance, or at their most intelligent, manage sneak up on you if you were standing still (Especially in the Corneria mission)

 

Anyways, back on topic, The Arwing is clearly meant to be a swift "hit and run" type of vehicle rather than a "tide-of-battle shifter" of sorts. It does not absorb damage very well, as the pilot must realign the ship drastically to recover from even the smallest impact and continue moving in the intended direction. On the other hand, it seems to function properly even after the wings have been partially destroyed. I suppose this would be the work of the G-diffuser, which allows the ship to be piloted under such extreme circumstances.

 

That being said, I think the G-diffuser is only implemented when the Arwing is being used within the atmosphere of a planet or within the confines of the giant battleships found in SNES Star Fox. I mean, the battleships must have a crew on them who need some form of simulated gravity to even be able to stand up properly when in space. When the Arwing is being used in an open area in space such as the asteroid field, I would assume that the Arwing could be turned in any direction (as there is no gravitational force affecting its motion) which kind of makes me wonder why the Meteo levels were ever on-rail to begin with. I mean, it would be logical to go around the giant meteor about to hit you, but sure lets use the boost to get through a tight space that could crush you if you don't make it for no good reason when we would be in a better situation if we just remained patient for a few extra seconds.... /mini-rant

 

So in summary, the arwing is not really all that powerful. As others suggested, pilot skill has a lot to do with it. For example, Bill is probably as good of a pilot as Fox even though he is using a standard cornerian fighter. It's a possibility that the Arwing has stronger lasers than the cornerian fighter, but that's just a silly theory I have about why Bill didn't try to help you take out the mothership on Katina in SF64 (In other words, maybe it wasn't possible for him to help in that case, but helping you open a gate in Sector X was possible).

[Jcopper24]

Cannot believe I'm saying this but it's probably a budget thing for Corneria and Venom. Corneria is relatively peaceful so it makes no sense to have an all powerful military. Andross must have spent a fortune on Area 6, Bolse and Sector X's base alone. Add in the size of his force it's quantity over quality. In the Arwing's case, it's a mercenary ship and therefore needs to be combat oriented. With 3 arwings (Peppy's, Pigma's and James's) the budget only has food and fuel on it otherwise. With James's supposed death, the Star Fox team was likely paid for their loss. Enough to get 3 more Arwings and Great Fox.

 

I'm probably over analyzing (duh!) but that's my reasoning. Finances and budgets set boundaries.

[DZComposer]

In my headcanon, WHICH IS PURELY CONJECTURE, I view this situation thusly:

1. Corneria didn't want war, so they largely ignored what Andross was doing on Venom until it was too late.

2. Andross ran a blitzkrieg and completely overwhelmed the unprepared Cornerians. Caught completely off-guard, there was little to do but retreat. Gen. Pepper was probably shitting bricks the whole time, scrambling to mobilize what forces he could to no avail.

3. Star Fox came in and took-out strategic targets, halting the blitz and punching holes in the Venomian lines, allowing Cornerian forces to advance.

4. Because the Venomians used blitzkrieg, they were weak behind the front due to being outstretched. Once Star Fox open holes in their lines, they were screwed. Once Star Fox destroyed the supply base on MacBeth, it was over. Without the supplies, the Venomian front collapsed.

5. When Andross is killed, the head is cut-off of Venomian C&C. They fall into complete disarray, different units pledging allegiance to different officers. At this point, they become little more than a nuisance to the Cornerians, completely unable to make any strategic moves.

[The Shaper]

In my headcanon, WHICH IS PURELY CONJECTURE, I view this situation thusly:

1. Corneria didn't want war, so they largely ignored what Andross was doing on Venom until it was too late.

2. Andross ran a blitzkrieg and completely overwhelmed the unprepared Cornerians. Caught completely off-guard, there was little to do but retreat. Gen. Pepper was probably shitting bricks the whole time, scrambling to mobilize what forces he could to no avail.

3. Star Fox came in and took-out strategic targets, halting the blitz and punching holes in the Venomian lines, allowing Cornerian forces to advance.

4. Because the Venomians used blitzkrieg, they were weak behind the front due to being outstretched. Once Star Fox open holes in their lines, they were screwed. Once Star Fox destroyed the supply base on MacBeth, it was over. Without the supplies, the Venomian front collapsed.

5. When Andross is killed, the head is cut-off of Venomian C&C. They fall into complete disarray, different units pledging allegiance to different officers. At this point, they become little more than a nuisance to the Cornerians, completely unable to make any strategic moves.

And then Star Fox: Assault.

[Patch93]

How is it that four arwings have more defensive and offensive ( bombs, twin lasers, blue lasers, etc.) than the whole cornerian army? You'd think that if mercenaries who are paid only sporadically can afford such fancy ships, so can Cornerian army?

 

The Arwings are actually prototype fighters developed by Space Dynamics and the Cornerian Defense Force hired the Star Fox team to fly them. Also, the CDF didn't have enough time to dispatch it to themselves, which is why they hired Star Fox in the first place. The Arwings were never actually built by the Star Fox team themselves, even in the N64 canon.

[psy_commando]

In terms of the incredibly stupid AI you just mentioned, I would like to direct everyone's attention to SF Adventures. Oh no, there's at least 5 of those guys who are looking for Fox. That's ok, they'll just stand around him in a circle while one after the other takes on Fox and is defeated without any support from their allies.

 

On the other hand, you have SF Assault, which actually did a decent job of having the on-foot enemies swarm you if they got the chance, or at their most intelligent, manage sneak up on you if you were standing still (Especially in the Corneria mission)

 

Anyways, back on topic, The Arwing is clearly meant to be a swift "hit and run" type of vehicle rather than a "tide-of-battle shifter" of sorts. It does not absorb damage very well, as the pilot must realign the ship drastically to recover from even the smallest impact and continue moving in the intended direction. On the other hand, it seems to function properly even after the wings have been partially destroyed. I suppose this would be the work of the G-diffuser, which allows the ship to be piloted under such extreme circumstances.

 

That being said, I think the G-diffuser is only implemented when the Arwing is being used within the atmosphere of a planet or within the confines of the giant battleships found in SNES Star Fox. I mean, the battleships must have a crew on them who need some form of simulated gravity to even be able to stand up properly when in space. When the Arwing is being used in an open area in space such as the asteroid field, I would assume that the Arwing could be turned in any direction (as there is no gravitational force affecting its motion) which kind of makes me wonder why the Meteo levels were ever on-rail to begin with. I mean, it would be logical to go around the giant meteor about to hit you, but sure lets use the boost to get through a tight space that could crush you if you don't make it for no good reason when we would be in a better situation if we just remained patient for a few extra seconds.... /mini-rant

 

So in summary, the arwing is not really all that powerful. As others suggested, pilot skill has a lot to do with it. For example, Bill is probably as good of a pilot as Fox even though he is using a standard cornerian fighter. It's a possibility that the Arwing has stronger lasers than the cornerian fighter, but that's just a silly theory I have about why Bill didn't try to help you take out the mothership on Katina in SF64 (In other words, maybe it wasn't possible for him to help in that case, but helping you open a gate in Sector X was possible).

Actually, within a galaxy at least, there's always gravity affecting an object. Its usually the closest largest object that exert the most pull on something.

And even then I remember hearing that galaxies attracted each others. 

 

 

Cannot believe I'm saying this but it's probably a budget thing for Corneria and Venom. Corneria is relatively peaceful so it makes no sense to have an all powerful military. Andross must have spent a fortune on Area 6, Bolse and Sector X's base alone. Add in the size of his force it's quantity over quality. In the Arwing's case, it's a mercenary ship and therefore needs to be combat oriented. With 3 arwings (Peppy's, Pigma's and James's) the budget only has food and fuel on it otherwise. With James's supposed death, the Star Fox team was likely paid for their loss. Enough to get 3 more Arwings and Great Fox.

 

I'm probably over analyzing (duh!) but that's my reasoning. Finances and budgets set boundaries.

 

Well, in N64 canon, Corneria is a planet shaped by war. So much that, that they even have a name for coming out of those caves after a war.

Its also mentioned that underground cities in the mountain ranges have been made so the population could hide during wars..

 

Here's the text from the official SF64 US guide :

 

I had to tweak the image a lot, because the scans I found were of horrible quality, and barely readable..

[Jcopper24]

Actually, within a galaxy at least, there's always gravity affecting an object. Its usually the closest largest object that exert the most pull on something.

And even then I remember hearing that galaxies attracted each others. 

 

 

 

Well, in N64 canon, Corneria is a planet shaped by war. So much that, that they even have a name for coming out of those caves after a war.

Its also mentioned that underground cities in the mountain ranges have been made so the population could hide during wars..

 

Here's the text from the official SF64 US guide :

 

I had to tweak the image a lot, because the scans I found were of horrible quality, and barely readable..

Very interesting. This will apply to all Cornerian fanfiction from now on. Take a note fellow writers.

[DZComposer]

Here's the text from the official SF64 US guide :

 

I had to tweak the image a lot, because the scans I found were of horrible quality, and barely readable..

I should probably finish those scans I started a couple of years ago and never finished...