SF64 vs. SF Assault?

[TCPeppyTc]

Sorry if this goes in the "polling place" but since it has to with "General star fox" thought it would be best here?

 

Which one do we prefer, and what were the differences that made them better/worse?

 

I know 64 is the classic, and that is my favorite, partly because they kept the plot and characterizations fairly simple and linear.

 

Loved the arwing design in 64, and thought each new level was significantly "different" than the last, whereas in Assault, they seemed to blend together slightly more.

 

StarWolf in 64 was vastly better than in they were Assualt, hands down. I remember in Assualt they presented the team as "antiheroes" and "respected, honorable rivals" for Starfox.  Anyone who remembers getting killed 15+ times by Starwolf on venom knows that "spin" on Starwolf is pretty absurd and unrealistic. Personally, I preferred wolf as a classy "Captain hookish" villain, as opposed to the motorcycle gang leader he became. Leon was really rocking the "English aristocrat" dialogue and dialect before he sounded like a lizard on speed. Again, Pigma was better in 64. The Brooklyn accent suited him, and I think assault did his character a disservice by having him be just a fat pink blob, and not even referencing the fact he betrayed both Peppy and James. Panther was an OK addition, but Im sure they put him in their to ride the coattails of "Puss n Boots" in Shrek 2. They both came out at around the same time, and from some reason everyone loved Antonio Banderas as Puss.Andrew maayyy have been the only one whose characterization was slightly better in assault, though not by too much.

 

Didn't care for Krystal being part of the team either. Sure she is kinda cute by blue furry fox standards, but she didn't really have any special ability or was all that much better than Slippy. Don't see how she could be trusted to fly an arwing after a lifetime of tribal jungle  living, and only a few years ( at most) exposure to Cornerian technology. I found her more grating than Slippy in assault to be honest.

 

Sort of unrelated, but it probably was a bad idea to have her on the team, especially if fox was romantically involved with her. Even the US army strongly discourages (forbids?) romantic relationships between soldiers in units. Having them sort of puts the whole team in jeaprody, because the soldier will usually put his/her "beloved" over the interests of the unit as a whole. Doesn't really matter for SF assault because its just a game but still.

 

Also, I missed having Katt and Bill. Especially Bill.

[Pharaoh Shadon]

I don't get whats so great about bill or Katt. They literally came from no where on the middle of a mission, said a few lines, then basically left when the mission was over.

 

I find myself playing assault more.

 

I grew up with the assault wolf so I like that one better (I found starwolf 64 kinda cheesy.) Guess that one just depends on which ones you see first.

 

Krystal is a hard one for me. I like her character, I think it fits. But this is where things get split up. On one hand, she is a reason why assault was so good (I think so anyway) on the other hand, she is why commands story was soooooooooo messed up DX We'll just have to see in starfox WiiU weather they actaully write her good because when it comes to the starfox characters, It's mainly the writers choices that make them good or not. And I think they did good with assault (Although I can see how pigma may have been not a good change)

 

Starfox is easier to just pick up and play and have a blast. But assault is probably better if you have time and wanna sit down through a story.

[ArwingFan]

Have to go with 64.

 

Assault's mutliplayer destroys 64's and it has the best design for Wolf and the wolfen.  However,

 

64's branching paths gave me a reason to replay the game, plus it gives me a great sense of discovery, Assault's adventure was offensively short with no replay value to salvage it.

 

Another thing I like about 64 is the camp value, everyone in this game was over-the-top and campy, and I love it.  The "NOOO HIT THE BRAAKES" and "SEE MY SHIP, DOES IT it LOOK OKAY TO YOU?" really sets the mood.  In Assault, every character spoke and acted like a lifeless drone.

 

Also the controls just feel tighter in 64.  Assault's arwing feels too slow and floaty for me, And the foot segments amounts to a poor man's Ratchet and Clank.

 

Arwing looks too ugly and fragile in Assault, and the spandexes hurt my eyes.  I want the labcoats back! 

[TCPeppyTc]

Have to go with 64.

 

Assault's mutliplayer destroys 64's and it has the best design for Wolf and the wolfen.  However,

 

64's branching paths gave me a reason to replay the game, plus it gives me a great sense of discovery, Assault's adventure was offensively short with no replay value to salvage it.

 

Another thing I like about 64 is the camp value, everyone in this game was over-the-top and campy, and I love it.  The "NOOO HIT THE BRAAKES" and "SEE MY SHIP, DOES IT it LOOK OKAY TO YOU?" really sets the mood.  In Assault, every character spoke and acted like a lifeless drone.

 

Also the controls just feel tighter in 64.  Assault's arwing feels too slow and floaty for me, And the foot segments amounts to a poor man's Ratchet and Clank.

 

Arwing looks too ugly and fragile in Assault, and the spandexes hurt my eyes.  I want the labcoats back! 

 

Quite so. Loved the train operator on Macbeth. Word on the spandexes. I wouldn't say they had "lab coats" in 64, but just like bomber jackets. Its not too much different from what people now might wear (except for the belts) and sort of looks like something Han Solo or other "space outlaws" might wear.

 

The Arwing, and all the enemies just kinda floated around too. It never felt like I was even close to "dying" or in any danger at all. Except maybe for a few bosses

[Battlechili]

I like Assault best. 

The order I beat the games was Adventures, Assault, and then 64, and when I finally beat 64 I was disappointed after everyone had been hyping it up as the best.

 

I adored Assault for its varied combat, which often has the player adapting to new controls and situations in many of the levels. In one level you might be doing a standard on-rails shooter.On another, you might be running around a hideout with enemies at every turn, playing it as a sort of third person shooter. And yet at other times, you might be constantly switching between doing that, flying in an open air Arwing, and using a Landmaster. Heck, you might even find yourself at some point standing on top of an Arwing and shooting a gun at high speeds at incoming enemies. I loved the variety to it, and I liked the idea of being on the ground and looked at 64 as a step backwards.

 

I'm also a big fan of story-heavy games, and 64 had almost no storyline at all. In the end, all it was was Andross screwing things up and you having to stop him. Even though the game at the beginning mentions him killing your father, he didn't seem threatening in the slightest. It might've helped if I were introduced to Fox's father and actually given time to care about him before he was killed, perhaps if the game gave me a level or two of playing as him before his death. That would've made that death mean all the more, and it would've made Andross seem like more than just a joke of an antagonist. Assault's storyline was more that of a cheesy sci-fi film. It could be seen as silly I'll admit, however I found the Aparoids to be a far scarier threat, and the slow progression to finding out what they are, where they are, and how to beat them added just a little bit more to the story. Events involving the Aparoids causing more and more trouble with each level made them downright scary. When you think about what they can do and how that might affect a person, its horrifying. I'll admit they aren't an original enemy in concept, but neither was Andross. They just had a little more to them. Events involving some of the characters with them added to how threatening they were. They were an enemy that could actually destroy and kill. They weren't a joke.

 

Other little gripes I have with 64 are that I find that the sound effects are a little too loud and override the music, and I can't stand having to replay some levels over again in order to play ones I haven't. I wish the game let me skip to a level I want to play like Assault. Plus there were many mission briefings before missions in 64 that seemed completely useless. Some were basically "Be careful!" or "Its dangerous here!" as if that isn't obvious before even playing. There was also less character banter than I would've liked in it.

[Pharaoh Shadon]

 

Assault's adventure was offensively short with no replay value to salvage it.

 

 

Assault was offensively short? I recall beating 64 in less than 40 minutes. Even when playing through a few different paths to unlock all the levels, I still ended up feeling it a waste of money almost because it didn't feel very long at all.

 

 

Some were basically "Be careful!" or "Its dangerous here!" as if that isn't obvious before even playing. There was also less character banter than I would've liked in it.

Lets not forget the gernerals "There's a base there?" You're the general! You should have known in the first place! DX (He shoulda said "There's a base there? Go check it out" or something like that. 64's cheesy and lazy writing was a major turn off to me. Just 2 or so more cutscenes woulda made things make more sense. Only reason why I forgive it is because it was after an arcade style game.

[TCPeppyTc]

 

 

Lets not forget the gernerals "There's a base there?" You're the general! You should have known in the first place! DX (He shoulda said "There's a base there? Go check it out" or something like that. 64's cheesy and lazy writing was a major turn off to me. Just 2 or so more cutscenes woulda made things make more sense. Only reason why I forgive it is because it was after an arcade style game.

 

 

Cutscenes in the style of gamecube games I think were more difficult to do in 1997. I think its remarkable the characters had actual voices back then. I get it though, it was before your time. I never played ( and don't really want to play) the SNES version of Starfox (came out when I was 3). At this point it almost feels as dated as Pac-man. The only plus I see to it is a cool soundtrack

[Pharaoh Shadon]

Cutscenes in the style of gamecube games I think were more difficult to do in 1997. I think its remarkable the characters had actual voices back then. I get it though, it was before your time. I never played ( and don't really want to play) the SNES version of Starfox (came out when I was 3). At this point it almost feels as dated as Pac-man. The only plus I see to it is a cool soundtrack

I should have said dialog rather than cutscenes. I feel like the general should have said more than he did in certain situations. The entire game felt kinda... (I HATE this term) kiddy. Everyone sounded like children when talking, nobody was really mature. When people did talk it felt VERY rushed and/or it feels like dialog was cut from the scene to save time or whatever.

 

Don't get the wrong, the gameplay of starfox 64 is pretty good, but when you go to story/other things, it kinda feels lacking and rushed. (Which is amazing because its basically the SNES game with a bit more detail so I figured that just a little bit more thought would have went into it)

[Drasiana]

Assault was an example of a story that used a lot of words to say absolutely nothing. It had some good ideas but it really wasn't structured very well and felt like an incomplete game in pretty much every aspect: gameplay, story, and everything in-between. Star Fox 64 was simple but it did exactly what it set out to and needed to do. It was a simple "son follows in his father's footsteps with the help of his friends" story, rather than the inane borg fanfiction full of convoluted morals ("u can't bypass evolution by stealing souls!!!!!!") that Assault was. More complicated =/= more quality.

 

Some of Assault's "big plot twists" also felt really mean-spirited in that they solely relied on killing off/gravely injuring classic characters. The story seriously couldn't think of a better way to raise the stakes or use Andrew, Pigma and Pepper other than shooting them down for shock value. I'll take goofy campy friends shooting space clams over angsty grimdark axefests any day, thanks.

[Giladen]

Sort of unrelated, but it probably was a bad idea to have her on the team, especially if fox was romantically involved with her. Even the US army strongly discourages (forbids?) romantic relationships between soldiers in units. Having them sort of puts the whole team in jeaprody, because the soldier will usually put his/her "beloved" over the interests of the unit as a whole. Doesn't really matter for SF assault because its just a game but still.

 

Command tried to tackle that. Which is yet another thing it has going for it over Assault.

 

Star Fox Assault has the worst plot of any SF game short of Adventures. Besides everything Drasiana brought up, there's Krystal's asspulled telepathy, Fox needing to be reminded to blow up the robot bug queen, the cuddlyzation of Star Wolf (Get rid of the pig and monkey since they're not "badass" or "cute", along with them being not going with the altered Star Wolf. Put in a goofball panther with no backstory who flirts with Krystal, make Leon more of a clown, recast Wolf as secretly wanting to be Fox's BFF), etc. At least Command tried to go into more detail on Andross. Among other things.

[FromAnotherWorld]

Somehow it seems which game one likes best mainly depends on which game one played first (or am I getting a wrong impression).

Personally, I like Assault much more than 64 (and didn't know about StarFox until Smash Bros Brawl) for a very simple reason. 64 hardly had any story and what little story it had really was nothing special or interesting (as a story it didn't have much more quality than Mario constantly saving Peach in the Mario games of that time) and there weren't really any dialogues. Sure, they did talk but often you could have randomly interchanged the sentences and it'd have made about the same amount of sense. In Assault it more often feels like the characters actually talk to each other and don't just  babble sentences. Also, I don't think the basic concept of Assault's story was bad, but the game just was too short and some things were weird.

For example when Pigma escaped on Fichina, Fox apparently couldn't have tried to shoot him down but what about the rest of the team? If I remember correctly they were in their Arwings and did absolutely nothing. Also, Krystal sensing the attack on Sauria seemed kinda strange. I think it was a little random and too obviously just done because someone wanted Sauria and Tricky to show up again. While I somewhat like the role Peppy played in Assault making him 'sacrifice' himself twice and survive nonetheless might be a little too much for such a short game. In my opinion including one scene of that kind would have been sufficient.

I also prefer StarWolf in Assault over StarWolf in 64, even though Pigma truly was much better in 64. However, StarWolf in 64 just exist so you have evil counterparts but story-wise they hardly do more than any other boss (what they talk is a little more interesting than what other bosses talk, but still).

[Pharaoh Shadon]

I ALMOST FORGOT about the immature bosses that the N64 game had. "I surrender... IF you can beat my phase 2!!!! HAHA! I tricked you!"

 

Also, i'm pretty sure Krystal always had the telepathy since the beginning. That was used to sense something was up with Sauria in adventures (Despite her clothing, she did come from a different planet. She probably was wearing that tribal clothing to fit in more with the locals. Unless that's what she was wearing at her home planet (Which I would have forgiven command if they went into decent detail about her home planet)

 

@FromAnotherWorld- I'm getting that feeling too. Maybe if I woulda played the N64 game first then I might have liked it better (I want to doubt that, but you never know)

 

I don't understand how people can say assault was too short yet the N64 game was just fine. I personally would have prefered if they had all the levels in one big story and maybe those "alternate" paths lead to a bonus level to more complete the story/another entrance to the next one.

 

But you're right, it DID sound like conversations in assault while the N64 game was mostly random (Even when it was scripted it was cut short and lazy)

 

And yeah, pigma did escape Fichina and COULD have been followed. But what was the priority at the moment? Save Fichina, or go get Pigma (Which you can, and did catch him shortly after) And saving the planet could have taken all of them (If there was an anime/story of assault, I bet all of them would have played a part in taking down the machine)

 

I wouldn't count saving the general as a sacrificing himself. Sure it could have ended in death, but softening someone else's blow doesn't generally end in death. And as for the great fox crash, it makes sense. I mean he had more than enough time to use the escape pod while crashing into the barrier. It would be stupid NOT to have an escape pod of some kind. The only weird thing at first is starwolf getting through but I'm pretty sure the great fox explosion would have took the barrier down again for wolf to get through (Assuming the great fox explosion didn't destroy that entire system in the first place)

 

 

And I looked up starwolf history and it all makes sense really. Starwolf was very new in starfox 64. Wolf was hired by Andross, Pigma joined for money, Leon was found in a venom bar. And Wolf just wanted to take down fox to be acknowledged as the best or something. Well after starfox 64 they vanished for a while. Well their disappearance was actually them being mercenaries and doing jobs for clients and became known that way. As they became more professional, so did their act. So wolf decided to fire Pigma for not being loyal enough for the kind of job he is doing and went to find someone else who is loyal (And then he found panther... Who makes 100% sense as a team member weather you like him or not)

 

The bland personality people say everyone has in assault is simply everyone growing up. Wolf is a professional now and thus, requires a different mind set. Fox has been experienced and probably saw ALLOT of bad things in his life so he matured that way. So starfox writing is more in depth than we probably thought it was.

[Giladen]

Also, i'm pretty sure Krystal always had the telepathy since the beginning. That was used to sense something was up with Sauria in adventures (Despite her clothing, she did come from a different planet. She probably was wearing that tribal clothing to fit in more with the locals. Unless that's what she was wearing at her home planet (Which I would have forgiven command if they went into decent detail about her home planet)

 

This section is filled with fanfiction. Krystal never shows any telepathy in Adventures (and no, using a staff doesn't make you telepathic), and she never uses telepathy when it would be handy (see Andross getting the drop on Krystal). Krystal having telepathy was an asspull to let her have an excuse to be a member of Star Fox.

 

I don't understand how people can say assault was too short yet the N64 game was just fine. I personally would have prefered if they had all the levels in one big story and maybe those "alternate" paths lead to a bonus level to more complete the story/another entrance to the next one.

 

Assault is more linear than 64.

 

But you're right, it DID sound like conversations in assault while the N64 game was mostly random (Even when it was scripted it was cut short and lazy)

 

Fox droning on about Krystal=Top dialogue

 

And I looked up starwolf history and it all makes sense really. Starwolf was very new in starfox 64. Wolf was hired by Andross, Pigma joined for money, Leon was found in a venom bar. And Wolf just wanted to take down fox to be acknowledged as the best or something. Well after starfox 64 they vanished for a while. Well their disappearance was actually them being mercenaries and doing jobs for clients and became known that way. As they became more professional, so did their act. So wolf decided to fire Pigma for not being loyal enough for the kind of job he is doing and went to find someone else who is loyal (And then he found panther... Who makes 100% sense as a team member weather you like him or not)

 

Even more fanfiction.

 

The bland personality people say everyone has in assault is simply everyone growing up. Wolf is a professional now and thus, requires a different mind set. Fox has been experienced and probably saw ALLOT of bad things in his life so he matured that way. So starfox writing is more in depth than we probably thought it was.

 

Next you'll be defending Other M's plot.

 

Also, Fox needed to be reminded to blow up the robot bug queen.

[ArwingFan]

Another thing is the two games were aiming for different goals.

 

64 and SNES Starfox were designed to be short, replayable, tightly woven arcade games.  And they succeeded.  The levels are fast paced and varied, offered alternating paths and a good amount of easter eggs.  The story may not be "deep", but it makes up for that by being high in camp value.

 

However Assault aimed to be a more linear, plot heavy adventure.  This isn't a bad goal, but the execution is.  Lets compare it to Paper Mario TTYD, a game that has similar goals (taking a usually plot-light series and making it into a full-blown plot driven adventure.)

 

The characters in TTYD have actual personalties, are fairly well-rounded, and serves a good role within the plot.  Even when adding more characters to the series they still managed to do this.  The same couldn't be said about Assault, each character was either a sack of potatoes or another target for Fox to shoot down.

 

Also, the plot, despite being on a larger scale than Assault is more interesting, fluent and less holey than Assault's was.  Also it showed more emotions, it could be funny, adventurous, and even dark at times.

 

Lasty the gameplay mechanics are more sound and much less botchy in TTYD than in Assault.  Even if Assault's adventure lasted 40% longer than a single run-through on 64's, there's no reason for it to be roughly thirty times shorter than TTYD.  Just pitiful.

[TCPeppyTc]

You know there is a reason SF64 is the one people think of when you say "Starfox!" and why it was the one that got made twice.

[Drasiana]

ITT complaining about Star Fox 64 sounding like a Saturday morning cartoon while simultaneously praising Assault for sounding like a 4Kids anime

[Patch93]

Assault tried way too hard to take itself seriously. They threw in dumb and cliche plot twists for the sake of shock value like tricking the players into thinking Peppy and Pepper got killed off, and the art style looked like it was trying to be like grimdark modern shooter games, which really does not fit well with characters that were designed to be puppets in model spacecraft.

[Battlechili]

ITT complaining about Star Fox 64 sounding like a Saturday morning cartoon while simultaneously praising Assault for sounding like a 4Kids anime

I look at 64 as a Saturday morning cartoon while I look at Assault as a Scifi original trying really hard to be Star Wars. And I mean that in a good way.

Assault tried way too hard to take itself seriously. They threw in dumb and cliche plot twists for the sake of shock value like tricking the players into thinking Peppy and Pepper got killed off, and the art style looked like it was trying to be like grimdark modern shooter games, which really does not fit well with characters that were designed to be puppets in model spacecraft.

I really wanted the characters to stay dead.

I think it would've meant a whole lot more if that were the case.

"puppets"

I know that's what they had been trying to do but that's one of the things I dislike about 64. (and even the clips of the new Wii U game). It looks like the characters faces while talking to each other are puppets rather than actual characters in an actual part of space where enemies really are a threat.

 

Somehow it seems which game one likes best mainly depends on which game one played first (or am I getting a wrong impression).

 

Admittedly I played Assault first, although it wasn't the first Star Fox game I beat.

[Robert Monroe]

a Scifi original trying really hard to be Star Wars

 

And I mean that in a good way

 

Scifi original

 

good

 

[Patch93]

If Star Fox Assault is trying to be like the shitty prequels, then I whole heartedly agree. XD

[Robert Monroe]

Patch, please.

 

The SW prequels aren't -that- bad. They're at least entertaining and have semi-consistant characters

[Patch93]

[Battlechili]

I meant in how scifi originals are usually pretty cheesy and/or silly (and can be enjoyed by some in a sort of "dumb fun" sense), and by trying to be Star Wars its trying to be a great big dramatic space opera, thus winding up as a cheesy but fun dramatic epic.

 

 

Patch, please.

 

The SW prequels aren't -that- bad. They're at least entertaining and have semi-consistant characters 

But the prequels don't even have characters. (skip to 7 minutes in)

 

And if I had to choose, I was comparing Star Fox Assault to Episode IV.

[Patch93]

 

its trying to be a great big dramatic space opera, thus winding up as a cheesy but fun dramatic epic.

 

That better describes the SNES/N64 games than Assault. Assault was trying way too hard to be dark and serious and as a result it came off as pretentious.

 

I don't see how you can compare Assault to the original SW trilogy, there weren't even any direct nods to it like 64 had.

[FromAnotherWorld]

I guess it's a matter of what one pays the most attention to/ puts the most priority on. I never experienced Assault as trying to be very dark, neither does the character design give me that impression (and I definitely prefer it over puppet-thingies). It's trying to have a story and the way this is executed is far from perfect but it also is far from as atrocious as it is in Command. Admittedly 64 put the things it tried to do better into practice than Assault, it's just that personally I like the things it tried to do less.