Why are there not 4 reps for StarFox in smash!?

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

cIt irritates me that for SSB4, already being a disappointment to me as is with a lack of content in comparison to Brawl, but also how badly the StarFox series got screwed. but particularly I'll talk about represented characters.

Now, I'm sure Wolf might just make the cut, but he suddenly overshadows Krystal by a longshot, this is only because of the Roy Formula;

The Roy-Formula states that when a character has been in a smash game and suddenly disappears, people will suddenly bitch and complain for them to return, so far this has happened to Roy, Mewtwo, Young Link, Dr. Mario, Snake, and now Wolf.

They even overshadow previously wanted characters in smash like Lloyd and Krystal, so it annoys me and seems totally pointless even if we do get them back, we don't gain any content through this, we lose potential.

Wolf was one of my MAINS in Brawl (although I pretty much used everybody regularly), and I wanted to see him, AND Krystal for SSB4 but we all want things.

Don't try to tell me people don't care about her:....

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ahmedaliakbar/smash-4-new-character-voting#.cxgEyQGGW


http://twodashstash.com/2014/01/wanted-characters-super-smash-bros-stated-fans-6-10/

To name a few. ^(Above)^


I feel this is a worthy topic, because this is the last week of the Smash Ballot. And I'd also like to talk about my growing list of other complaints and comments, regarding StarFox or otherwise in smash.

[Dr. Orange]

They added Wolf because people are familiar with the character and they already have assets for him.

I love Krystal too, don;t get me wrong, but she was 18 on list A and the second link is broke. There's a good list in front of her.

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

They added Wolf because people are familiar with the character and they already have assets for him.

I love Krystal too, don;t get me wrong, but she was 18 on list A and the second link is broke. There's a good list in front of her.

Like I said, smash fans are all naive to the effects of the Roy Formula; even if he's a character hardly anyone besides the tiny number of StarFox fans in the Universe gave a shit about, once he's been in smash people are unable of letting him go should he suddenly disappear in the next game.

Seriously, the Roy Formula has been provable the moment Smash bros Brawl came out and people found out characters like Roy and Mewtwo didn't return and they bitched until they both HAD to return in Smash4, Remember all that?

NOBODY outside Japan knew who the hell Roy was until Melee came out, lol.

[Pharaoh Shadon]

On top of that, Roy sucked in Melee, and he sucked in his own game. Fire emblem fans didn't like him as a player, or a character. I don't fully get why people wanted Roy so badly DX

And then Wolf. Wolf was okay, though he had what I thought to be the most awkward fighting style in brawl. I don't think he shoulda been included or if he was, then he shoulda been more of a brawler I feel, not a fox "Clone"

Krystal on the other hand has quite the potential. Give her that staff, and we have a fighting style that has yet to be seen in smash.

[Dr. Orange]

Like I said, smash fans are all naive to the effects of the Roy Formula; even if he's a character hardly anyone besides the tiny number of StarFox fans in the Universe gave a shit about,

Tiny number of fans? Wolf is one of the most iconic to the Starfox series. Anyone who played Starfox growing up is going to reconize Wolf on sight. Of course they put him over Krystal first. 

And what's with with the "Roy Formula?" Tbh Mewtwo and Roy were pretty fun characters back in Melee.

[Xortberg]

This whole thread reeks of butthurt Krystal fanboy, honestly. He cites "The Roy Formula" like it's some documented thing and not something he totally made up and made sound "official" to lend credence to his argument, then in his explanation he lists like 6 characters of which only 2 have actually returned

The the whole "smash fans are all naive to the effects of the Roy Formula" is hilariously pretentious.

Also as a minor gripe at Pharaoh, Wolf really wasn't a Fox "clone" at all. His B moves were derivative but very different, as one would expect of a rival-type character, but his normals, tilts, smashes, and throws were all extremely different.

[ArwingFan]

How did Starfox get screwed?  The series has it pretty good in SSB4 compared to Metroid, F-Zero and Earthbound.

[Robert Monroe]

The same reason why Metroid's only representation has been "Samus" and "Naked Samus". :T

 

That said honestly Krystal with her staff would make a good character I think - SFAd had a nice moveset of attacks to derive from and the magic spells are basically B moves waiting to happen. But either way, I'm pretty sure you need to be a wizard to comprehend how Sakurai thinks sometimes.

[Pharaoh Shadon]

This whole thread reeks of butthurt Krystal fanboy, honestly. He cites "The Roy Formula" like it's some documented thing and not something he totally made up and made sound "official" to lend credence to his argument, then in his explanation he lists like 6 characters of which only 2 have actually returned

The the whole "smash fans are all naive to the effects of the Roy Formula" is hilariously pretentious.

Also as a minor gripe at Pharaoh, Wolf really wasn't a Fox "clone" at all. His B moves were derivative but very different, as one would expect of a rival-type character, but his normals, tilts, smashes, and throws were all extremely different.

Which is why I quoted "Clone" Because yeah, he isn't a 100% clone like Flaco was in Melee, but it's obvious that fox's moveset was a HEAVY influence to Wolf.

Wolfs side B is Fox's, but at an angle. His up B is Foxes but with a different skin (And slightly different physics if I remember right) His normal B is the blaster, but shorter range and more powerful and slower. His side smash is also foxes but with a different animation. Plus the reflector, etc etc. Wolf is basically a different version of Fox, just like how Dark Pit is to normal Pit. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but since I found Wolf super awkward, I woulda prefered a different fighting style, or someone from Starfox who coulda had a 100% unique fighting style that hasn't been seen in a smash game yet. Rival doesn't mean similar fighting style, it simply means two people who are competing.

 

Also, Roy forumla IS a thing XD It's present in just about every fighting series there is, there just isn't really a name for it (That I know of) and so he dubbed it the Roy formula for this particular context. Even so, it doesn't matter if he made it up and made it sound official, because that's EXACTLY how normal official things are started, one guy write something up professionally, many agree, and it becomes a popular thing. Sure, only 2 have come back, but that's not the point. The point is different variety and representation. Wolf had the spot light in Brawl which was cool  But now it's time to represent another side character.  But instead of representing more characters and adding more uniqueness to the roster, people just want the same ol characters to come back.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Pharaoh Shadon

[Gestalt]

You could instead use the term "semi-clone" which is far more palatable to the dedicated crowd though still arguable.

Smash Wiki remix: Clone implies little to no change in play-style right off the bat: no training necessary. Meaning you can easily main either clone with no sweat, no difference, and maintain the same of degree of performance outside of minutia. If you are finding Wolf more awkward to handle than Fox then that is evidence against their degree of clone-ness.

[Xortberg]

I'm not gonna get into a big wall of text on how all their normals are like 100% different (I already did that in some other thread so if I must I'll just find it and link it here), but Wolf's Fsmash is way different than Fox's, and his B moves are only superficially the same. In effect and how you utilize them, the only one that comes close to actually being a "cloned" move is the reflector, but it still has minor differences.

Wolf is not SF's Dark Pit. He's more different than Fox than Luigi is from Mario, and they're pretty different.

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

Wow, leave it to Xorts to always purposely stand against me, just what I need lel.

Honestly I liked Roy, but he was a super minor character in the game he actually came from, and he was...well...a clone, but I don't give a shit. Ike however was a far better rep for FE than Roy could ever be, he's actually a main character, and has a very original moveset.

I actually love Wolf AND Krystal, they're both some of my favorite fictional characters of alltime, FALCO is a goddamn clone, if anyone should have been cut it should have been Falco, I'd be almost ok with just Fox and Wolf, better than Fox and Falco.

WHEN DID I EVER SAY THE GODDAMN ROY FORMULA WAS SOMETHING OFFICIAL!!?? SENSE WHEN IS A THEORY OFFICIAL!!? IT'S JUST SOMETHING I HAPPENED TO NOTICE AND NAMED IT AS A THEORY, GOD FUCKING DAMMIT PEOPLE!!!!

As I was saying,

How did Starfox get screwed?  The series has it pretty good in SSB4 compared to Metroid, F-Zero and Earthbound.

It got screwed in a number of ways, IN the old Lylat Cruise stage Wolf's face looks even worse than my shitty fan drawing I have on-site, bottom of the barrel there btw.

than the voice acting is even shittier than 643D's lousy attempt at a remake, for both the playable characters and on the Orbital Gate Assault stage, one of my favorite space shooter missions of alltime, plus Krystal and all of team StarWolf are missing.

Fox got nerfed...BADLY, Fox sucks like hell now in SSB4, they made him utter trash.

StarFox has only two reps, and only two good stages, but to be fair Brawl only had one good stage, I do not like the Corneria stage, the GreatFox from Smash 64 was a lot better.

Personally, I don't give a shit about clones, but an original moveset like Krystal could have, or if they modified Wolf would have been a lot better than Falco as a semi-clone. Honestly.



On a side note....now that my best buddy has joined the fun I think it's just about time to have this post locked.

 

[Pharaoh Shadon]

I'm not gonna get into a big wall of text on how all their normals are like 100% different (I already did that in some other thread so if I must I'll just find it and link it here), but Wolf's Fsmash is way different than Fox's, and his B moves are only superficially the same. In effect and how you utilize them, the only one that comes close to actually being a "cloned" move is the reflector, but it still has minor differences.

Wolf is not SF's Dark Pit. He's more different than Fox than Luigi is from Mario, and they're pretty different.

Oh yeah, you're that person who gave that giant explanation on why wolf is so different XD Wanna know what i'm sensing? >:D

This whole thread post reeks of butthurt Krystal Wolf fanboy

(Don't like that tone? Well that's exactly what you sounded like when you said it... Minus the slight goofyness before it XP)

I find Wolf awkward because he's a Fox that focuses more on brutality rather than speed.

Foxes side smash- Side kick, 21% damage

Wolfs side smash- Side slash (Reskin of side kick), 21% damage

Foxes up smash- Backflip- 23% damage

Wolfs up smash- jump in the air and kick up- 25% (Max)

Foxes down smash- splits

Wolfs down smash- hits both sides with his claws

 

Up air- Claws up instead of using feet

Down A air- Down spike instead of using feet (Something different that's not a reskin o.o)

Standard A- a 3 hit combo

Down A- Fox uses tail, Wolf does same thing but with claws.

 

Seeing something here? Yeah, wolf has a few differences, but most his stuff is simply a reskin of using his claws instead of feet. sure, his attacks look different, but if you compare the attacks one by one, you see it's simply a re-skin with a different animation and slightly different physics to them. Wolf is a more brutal fox, I find him more awkward because he's so close to fox that I WANT to play him like fox, but due to the slight difference, I can't. It's the same with falco. I can't name the amounts of times I down B with falco because I forget that he throws his reflector DX You may not see them as clones, but the developers do. So much so that they didn't bother giving him or falco a different final smash, simply a land master for all 3 (Which doesn't make sense for Wolf, and if I remember correctly, falco doesn't like the land master much) If they truly didn't see them as clones, then they would have had different final smashes. But they don't, and that's because the developers created Wolf and Falco as clones that are just different enough to not be seen as clone characters and please the fans. You seem to think that's a bad thing. It's not really a bad thing as some people like foxes move set, but they wanted a slower, more brutal version of it. Thus, wolf comes in. That's a GOOD thing XD 

 

 

Which also falls back on the topic creators Roy formula thing. True, the against it argument is generally about more representation of characters, but the ones for it is because they loose their best character as they don't make the cut, which is why I'm salty about ice climbers and want them back even know I don't play as them very often DX I guess it also falls back on when it comes to fighting games, people want things to be ADDED not taken away, and smash tends to do quite a bit of replacing/taking away throughout its games, which is why the fanbase is so different per game.

[Xortberg]

Oh my god I can't believe I'm having this argument again. NONE of Wolf's A moves are reskins at all. The ways he moves, the hitboxes, the damage and knockback properties, the speeds of the moves' startup and the ending lag on them, AND the animations are like literally all different. I would know. I mained Wolf, and I secondaried Fox AND Falco.

Maybe the reason you feel he's awkward when you try to play him like Fox is because he isn't like Fox and needs a different playstyle. Because his moves are all different.

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

Oh my god I can't believe I'm having this argument again. NONE of Wolf's A moves are reskins at all. The ways he moves, the hitboxes, the damage and knockback properties, the speeds of the moves' startup and the ending lag on them, AND the animations are like literally all different. I would know. I mained Wolf, and I secondaried Fox AND Falco.

Maybe the reason you feel he's awkward when you try to play him like Fox is because he isn't like Fox and needs a different playstyle. Because his moves are all different.

Holy shit...I agree with you...a little. Falco was meh, I never liked Falco that much in smash, he's still a clone of Fox in mine eyes. but Wolf was NOT a clone, he was similar to Fox but as a slower, bulkier and stronger answer to Fox, just as the Wolfen is the slower bulkier but more powerful answer to the Arwing. Poetry.

Falco's just a Fox wannabe, I still hate how all three have to have LandMasters but with slightly altered speed and timespan. I'd like Fox to keep the LandMaster, Falco to get a barrage of Arwings with STRONG lasers like in smash 64, some smart bombs and hits you as he flies by the stage, and the player can control a ridicule cross-hair thingy that marks where the attacks are going to be centered on. I'd like to see Wolf either get something similar to Falco with the Wolfen, or just the Landmaster he had as is...can't think of much else. if Krystal ever got a chance I'd like her to use a more magical attack, like krazoa spear from Super Smash bros. Crusade essentially. (fanmade game)

[Robert Monroe]

Hey, Lefty? If you don't want certain people to comment or debate with you on a topic of contention then maybe you shouldn't MAKE A TOPIC OF CONTENTION.

 

Just a thought.

 

*goes back to his Metroid brooding corner and waits for Ridley to be added in Super Smash Bros. 3000*

[Xortberg]

Honestly I liked Roy, but he was a super minor character in the game he actually came from, and he was...well...a clone, but I don't give a shit. Ike however was a far better rep for FE than Roy could ever be, he's actually a main character, and has a very original moveset.

 

So I didn't even notice Lefty post here and I don't have anything to say about the other shit that Rob didn't but this here

It's wrong. Completely wrong.

Roy was the main protagonist of FE6. He was FE6's Ike. Was he a pretty boring character and a shit unit? Yeah, but he's a main character and not at all a minor character in his game. He's a minor character in FE7, which is a prequel.

 

 

I'd like to see Wolf either get something similar to Falco with the Wolfen, or just the Landmaster he had as is...can't think of much else.

As an edit because I didn't notice this before yet again, my idea for Wolf's FS was always that he should get supporting fire from the rest of his team in their Wolfen or something.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Xortberg

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

Hey, Lefty? If you don't want certain people to comment or debate with you on a topic of contention then maybe you shouldn't MAKE A TOPIC OF CONTENTION.

 

Just a thought.

 

*goes back to his Metroid brooding corner and waits for Ridley to be added in Super Smash Bros. 3000*

Dude...I don't think I even actually like most of my "friends" IRL/in person (They annoy me, but I still like them I'm just being cynical), I tolerate you guys about as well as I tolerate pretty much all human beings, you've gotten better in recent times I guess...I'm only remaining cautious because Xort still has not ceased his beef with me, and I'm being sure to be ready to lock this before a fight breaks out again, I come back online always expecting a shitfest for some reason.

So I didn't even notice Lefty post here and I don't have anything to say about the other shit that Rob didn't but this here

It's wrong. Completely wrong.

Roy was the main protagonist of FE6. He was FE6's Ike. Was he a pretty boring character and a shit unit? Yeah, but he's a main character and not at all a minor character in his game. He's a minor character in FE7, which is a prequel.

 

 

As an edit because I didn't notice this before yet again, my idea for Wolf's FS was always that he should get supporting fire from the rest of his team in their Wolfen or something.

I guess that's probably better, but only if they're actually effective instead of just basically a sudden stage hazard. It would be cool to see him and his teammates talking while they attack too, like on the StarFox themed stages.


RIDLEY WILL NEVER BE IN SMASH. lel, honestly I'd like to see him there, it's just funny watching fires get started when I say either side of that discussion regarding Ridley.

I wanted Ghirihim from Zelda Skyward Sword, Krystal and Wolf from StarFox, Shulk from Xenoblade, Midna and Wolf Link from Zelda, and Geno from Mario RPG (never gonna happen)

But things don't happen simply cause you hope they do, We all have the right to dream. stop acting like any of us are really any different.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AlGore'sleftshoe
mixed up names

[Robert Monroe]

Noone cares if you don't like your RL friends or not. Don't want to risk an internet fight, then don't make a topic that will attract debate. Easy.

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

Anyways, I know this is a bit of an unnecessary nitpick, but the designs of the characters are HIDEOUS, the textures they have on Fox and Falco just hurt to look at somehow, they look like Methheads.

I can only imagine how bad Wolf will look, considering the way his face looked on Lylat Cruise when he goes on the monitor, he looked amazing in Brawl, why ruin that with the horribly redone skin models from StarFox 64 3D!!?

at least the shape of his head looks like SF643D, the design from Assault and Brawl was probably just hastily slapped over it resulting in that abomination. I know it isn't easy to make an anthro character look good, but they just look horrible in Smash4, I'd even take 64's paper polygons over them.

[AlGore'sleftshoe]

Tiny number of fans? Wolf is one of the most iconic to the Starfox series. Anyone who played Starfox growing up is going to reconize Wolf on sight. Of course they put him over Krystal first. 

And what's with with the "Roy Formula?" Tbh Mewtwo and Roy were pretty fun characters back in Melee.

Forgot you posted this, I was referring to how few STARFOX fans there were, not really a very big franchise, at least not like Mario, Zelda or Pokemon or anything.

I never said I didn't like Roy and Mewtwo, and I actually preferred Mewtwo over Lucario by a longshot.

[DZComposer]

OK, that's enough drama for one thread.

Also, if you keep editing your posts to get around mod approval, then:

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by DZComposer