Star Fox vs Star Wars

[SF Redd]

1 hour ago, riccofox96 said:

Dude, the First Order was flourishing throughout the galaxy, and the old Empire had the whole galaxy. Corneria has supreme reign over only 15 planets. Cornerians are ill-equipped to go to war with humans, considering Cornerians' peaceful nature, and the humans in the Star Wars universe are really good at war, with massive numbers of planets and resources available to build literally tens of thousands of Star Cruisers, along with building any number of Death Stars or Starkillers. They could feasibly build another Starkiller to annihilate most of the Lylat System in one single shot. Look at Corneria: a 4-man crew can take out the entirety of Andross' forces, whilst the military dawdles around with its thumb up its ass getting destroyed by some of the most laughable enemies.

See, what you're doing, is saying that because Star Wars' humans are more aggressive, they'd have the upper hand, but that's like saying that since Attila the Hun and his forces were more ruthless than the modern American military, they would win, which just isn't right.

26 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Wha-? Where's the evidence for any of this? Great Fox literally gets ripped apart by drones in the SFZ, Has a wing blown off by a missile if you're bad at Sector Z (Even if you argue that it had the power of a nuke or something, turbolasers when used at full power are able to reduce a city that's seemingly spanning a continent to ashes) and in it's assault form is shredded by Aparoids. Seriously man, read up on Star Wars a bit, Mass Effect tech might be more of a fairer fight.

Yes the Great Fox can be damaged by Lylatian weapons. Weapons which are of the same technological level. And Aparoids are even more advanced than that. I've not a single doubt in my mind that the Aparoids would devastate the Star Wars universe much more than they did the Lylat system, but I digress. You're treating a Star Destroyer as if it's better because it's bigger, but, to make another analogy, that's like saying that a large medieval War Ship is better than a small modern battleship for the same reason. I know Star Wars; I've been a fan of it since long before I had ever even heard of Star Fox, but Star Fox is just on a higher level, technologically.

33 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Tie fighters don't have shielding, it's meant for mass production and the tactics are to overwhelm the enemy. All that aside, what're you talking about? Basic enemies are able to whittle down your heath at a fair rate (I'll try find an example), I don't know what you think they're firing at each other, but let me tell you right now "laser" is a misnomer (Lasers are beams if you'll remember), it's "ionized gases" or plasma if that feels like a better term. (Also, heres some well informed non-canon)
 

But see, you can't whittle away health if your shots don't affect the health of your target. If your shots don't damage it, it doesn't matter how much you shoot, because it still isn't doing damage.

37 minutes ago, Sylono said:

That's opinion at best, I'm going out of my way to make this fair for Star Fox considering I'm not adding Jedi or Sith or anything.

It's not opinion, I've backed it up.

38 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Again, this is still opinion coming from the math you said you did, the one where you barefacedly saying that somehow they made their ship's fire power not melt itself each time it fires, yet, clearly other lasers from even old ships (First mission) of Star Fox Assault.

How is this speculation? It has happened multiple times in-game. Area 6 comes to mind. That heat could easily be contained by a one-way shield around the shot, which is something that a civilisation capable of controlling gravity could do.

44 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Uh, is that baseless speculation on your part? Even if the idea of Corneria holding out even hours would be almost zero, the Imperial Navy is massive, they need to be in order to keep order in a galaxy, Lylat honestly can't compete with the numbers they could produced. Also, Morals, The empire isn't above glassing worlds to dust.

But once again it doesn't matter how big it is. Send one million soldiers armed with clubs against a thousand soldiers on a base armed with modern tech, and the few will win. And remember, if the whole Lylat is under threat, none will just sit by for that. That includes Star Fox, the Cornerian Army, Star Wolf, any other mercs there may be, even criminals would take up arms against an enemy if the end result was to have the Lylat system wiped out, so that does add to their numbers.

50 minutes ago, Sylono said:

It also has been around for a good long while, like, a looong time (sorry, best I could find atm) and is a lot more diverse (Tactics, vehicles, military personnel etc.).

So not only is Star Wars tech inferior to Star Fox tech, it's extremely unlikely to change any time soon.

53 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Look Star Fox is a fun series, but the people in that universe aren't technological gods or even near Mass Effect tech. Heck, they're still using warp gates, which is just advertising "Hey, over here! Shoot me!" to anyone with in the general vicinity (Thinking about it, it's amazing the attack on the aparoid homeworld didn't outright fail). Hyperspace from the Star Wars universe provides an excellent means for ambushing enemies, now mix that with the Gravity well producing Star Destroyers and that proves terrifying for unsuspecting victims.

If you can ambush someone, that's great. but it's not going to go so well if after you've ambushed them you get wiped out.

55 minutes ago, Sylono said:

Last point for now, remember, Tie fighters aren't the only star fighter in use, there are spare ARC 170s from the republic clone wars (Among other ships and vehicles Used). The Empire has plenty of weaponry at it's disposal and that is only focusing on the Galactic Empire, there plenty I could have chosen, but I believe they poor management of the Empire would be the fairest fight possible.

Same point. You can have all the equipment you want, but if it's just going to get blown up, there's not much point.

Look, Star Wars just isn't as advanced as Star Fox. That's okay, it's still a great series, but putting a Cornerian fighter against an X-Wing is like putting a pit bull against a chiwawa. Sure, the X-Wing has a mean look to it. It sounds dangerous, too, but in the end, it's going to be ripped to shreds without much effort.

[Sylono]

Alba please provide links as to how Lylat tech is capable of any of this, c'mon man, all your points amount to is "It's better cause my head canon says so". Seriously, you're telling me that a galaxy spanning civilization is gonna crumble to some budding star system that hasn't really started populating other systems? (Unless you consider SFC canon, that is.)

[SF Redd]

I can't link you to in-game occurrences. Plus, with the closure or Arwing Landing, it's hard to find comic scans.

[Sylono]

Fair enough. If I find 'em I'll be sure to link 'em for peeps to look at.

[Navis]

this topic reminds me of ww2. Why germany lost? they weren't enough people to fight and they wanted quality over quantity

so...... you can apply this on the topic in some way

it's true that the star fox tech looks more versatile than the star wars one.

The great commander is a good example of lylatian tech

 

[Ori]

I don't generally give opinions in this type of thread but eh

I feel like the the only objective fact you can compare between any two given fiction series is dedication to detail. There's no other real solid determinant and anything other than that is speculating unlikely battles. I feel there's some animosity going on, so I'm sorry if I sound like a "stop having fun" type of person.

The following isn't a consideration of detail. I don't feel that it's fair in this context when the technology/military is what's being compared.

RIDICULOUSLY POINTLESS LONG READ AHOY! - READ DISCLAIMER IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WASTE TIME

<Seriousness pauses here>

 

If you take away shielding from consideration (because let's face it, no shielding is perfect), overwhelming numbers win, and eventually all systems when exposed to overwhelming circumstances will present malfunctions and fail. Either from the Empire or any dominant force of galactic or even interstellar scale will have the whole Lylatian war machine grind to a halt. Arguably a draw, but with Lylat besieged and having to constantly pump out resources and people for a war, time is the only determinant factor before natural and other resources are exhausted. Would they be able to hold out? Maybe. How long? I'd give them a year, very generously.

To give you a sense of scale, space is big. Really big. If the amount of resources you would see on a solar system such as Lylat is large to hold out multiple wars, then it becomes essentially meaningless if you multiply that by roughly hundreds of billions of times for the competing side.

If some organization with the strength backed by an entire galactic scale force was put against a group in a single star system, it doesn't matter how powerful their technology is-- as long as they're not plain GODS they will pretty much eventually bleed and die like anything else.

Okay, take away the numbers. So what about tactics? Cornerian tactics seem to be passed down under one doctrine for all of Lylat if you ignore the occasional mercenary team with creative tactics. While the galactic order of your choice in SW does have a single doctrine at any given time, they use of varied and very, very detailed tactics for all sorts of situations while in Lylat it seems more standardized.

But who said anything about needing to destroy your enemy's military? Enslave captives, cause them to rebel, brainwash them or rally them to your cause by either clever deception or persuading them with a better cause ("WE LIVE AND DIE BY YOUR HANDS, BOSS!"), create a separatist faction and make them fight amongst themselves, or just plain spread lies among themselves and chaos will follow eventually bringing order to a massive crash of the society.

You can also just kill the population and cut the supply of potential troops, and organizations such as the empire don't exactly have problem with that. You might also trigger PTSD and many other emotional instabilities among the enemy's troops by killing their families, loved ones or friends. Morbid cynicism and method, but it works, and as we know, some of the sides in Star Wars don't exactly feel they have issues with that, either from racism, elitism, or just plain ruthlessness.

OR you can threaten using your superweapons as a deterrent and force enormous pressure on your enemy (and in case you don't know, deterrence is pretty much moot point and just one step away from doomsday if things get tense). Star Fox's superweapons seem to be mostly localized things such as novabombing (which in some terms counts more as 'regular' high yield explosives), and there are none especially noteworthy ones that I can remind myself of. (Glad if I could have some references on that because there aren't many others I know of). Star Wars has the planet killers of your choice. You can also call in orbital artillery from things such as star destroyers and level entire planets by just shooting lasers and sweeping them over and over, which has been done most notably in Taris as mentioned before in SW.

The second option is the more peaceful one for groups that don't wish to plain exterminate Lylat or have a long drawn out war: reverse engineering. While destroying a ship might be a difficult task, disabling it, boarding it or just plain stealing it isn't that difficult. Getting hold of a military transport with low security is hitting jackpot. On that much, it may just be a draw, as both sides can do this, but regardless of the sides the process is the same: find their tech's weakness, use it to amplify your disabling/stopping power, and repeat until you can level the playing field.

Okay, let's level out the playing field right on the spot then. No shields, no numbers, no tactics, no reverse engineering, fox only, final destination. Just plain fighter vs fighter. combat. But there is still a problem that makes things unfair!

Armors. Unconventional materials such as Cortosis-weave and other lightsaber-resistant materials could very well resist other high-energy weaponry that Lylat may make use of. It might not make invincibility but still might make a tough armor.

Okay, so what if we remove the armors as well?

Basically you have things that NOW will fall in one hit, and for both sides.

Removing unconventional weapons outright will make a ramming battle, so what to replace them with? I'd say arm them with miniaturized missiles or small-regular ones (such as the IRIS-T for instance) and kinetic weaponry (such as the GAU-8 Avenger, main gun of the A-10 Thunderbolt II, which can quite literally propel the vehicle it's mounted on backwards out of sheer pushing force) which would still have a difficult-to-decide battle result, as combat proficiency depends not only on technology but pilot abilities, lots of external and internal factors, and plain old luck.

Disregarding aerodynamics because (like most sci fi) there's no way either sides could have flyable ships with their designs, let's say they have this caveat agreement for movement using the magical engines and anti-gravity physics disablers of their choice to keep their ships on air/space. With this in consideration, I'm not an expert but by guesswork and canon evidence, Arwings are quite expensive albeit having extra durability. Most fighters in SW are cheaper to produce, and lighter so that's exactly their strength. No matter even if you manage to destroy SW universe's full squadron at a time, even they are limited to producing and deploying only one squadron at any given moment they'd still have ease of production.

Should Lylat produce cheaper fighters or through cheaper methods, it'll level the playing field on this for another arguable draw depending on how long resource incomes hold out for producing things.

One major weakness though: the pilots. Lylatian pilots seem to never be expecting to EVA or even eject (pretty "do or die", huh?) given they never visibly wore proper flight suits for atmospheric flight, and no self-sustaining space suits for space combat. Star Wars pilots, albeit rarely surviving, often wear proper flight suits  and what seem to be space suits for most common soldiers (as seen on TIE pilots). There are also the often lucky landings and escapes seen in those, so that can be considered for recoverable scrap parts and pilots.

(Also, there was this one F-15 pilot who manage to land one of the Eagles after losing a wing. It's not related to all this or anything but it's just plain badass so I figured it's worth mentioning.)

Right, if you strip away quite literally everything, it starts being stupid and already goes at hand to hand combat between Lylatian and human/alien SW races, which is pretty pointless for the purpose of evaluating the fighters and ship combat.

Point is moot. Only remaining question is: "So what if you give both universes more power instead?"

It would continue to keep going on draws more and more and going on more straw-grasping, and eventually would start to break basic rational thinking. That said:

 

  

In the end, there is never a clear, conclusive and hard factual result because unless there's a crossover game with very specific stats for both sides, I'm afraid there can't be an actual comparison to tell what would happen.

<Seriousness resumes here>

Disclaimer:

 

This post wasn't meant to be an entirely serious read but so I have to say about any sort of topic such as this, but the conclusion still applies: comparisons of seemingly "matchable" powers or trying to figure out whose power level goes further ends up being moot point as it goes into the field of absolutes and breaks down entirely the whole point of arguing about it, as suspension of disbelief and reality liberties are too large to take seriously the subject content at their fullest, seen at internet memetic iterations of things like unexplained powers caused by technology, absurd strength, or absolute invincibility, which just seem to have no explanation other than "IT JUST WORKS!" and eventually lose meaning.

With both series taking with so many liberties taken from a real world perspective, such as Star Wars does, and one that reeks of complete levity, such as Star Fox did so far, it's not a matter of better technology but actually making sense, and neither fulfill that condition enough for a proper tactical analysis at a deep level, especially outside of their own universes where things have little equivalence of power, technology and inner workings.

TL:DR: I just feel like both series really can exist as they want in-universe for each of them, but when you place them together without adjustments, things stop making sense, considering in and of themselves, a few things can be even insulting to the viewers' intellect when you stop to think about it (SW: Artificial gravity, channeling entire stars into condensed power for a planet killer / SF: prohibitively high power lasers, absurd levels of imperviousness in armor and shielding / Both: FTL travel, portals, FTL comms). As it plain can't happen in any way we possibly know, arguments kinda keep going full circle. Sorry if that all seems too "no fun allowed", but this all feels too much 'apples and oranges' to me.

...i should probably have put this thought into something more constructive.

[Sylono]

21 hours ago, Orbi The Joyful Furry said:

"WE LIVE AND DIE BY YOUR HANDS, BOSS!"

*Sniff* H-how could you!?

[Ori]

On 16/04/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sylono said:

*Sniff* H-how could you!?

Sy...

I'm already a demon.

----

On the subject of the animated short itself, it's not quite bad, interesting overall. As far as the CGI goes it looks okay. The visual effects are my only real issue with it, they look kinda obvious/out of place, and the city is kinda.. too colorful? Anyway, the city is kinda 'artificial looking' on the CGI bits. Nice detail with the SFZ posters around though. However I do recognize one or two uses of text-to-speech software in the beginning. (Points for accurate depiction of actual people though: aerial conflict breaks out, first thing to do? Take pictures!)

I also like how it's actiony in nature and that sort of thing. Anyways. Not a bad animation, just needed polish on some effects.

Gotta wonder if the guy will ever do some more of those, huh.

[Brendan1021]

On 4/11/2016 at 3:32 PM, SF Redd said:

This wouldn't work. Star Fox is too advanced from Star Wars. It's a mismatch, and the weapons and shielding in Star Fox is too much for that of Star Wars.

Except it isn’t, lmao. I’ve seen your idiotic arguments for the Star Fox side, and they’re all based off nothing more than the classic no limits fallacies and asspulling.
 

 

here’s a little fact for your dumbass. A single Acclamator-Class Assault Ship or Harrower Class Dreadnought from 3,000+ BBY ago solos the entire Lylat system with no effort. The Great Fox was nearly obliterated by not even 1 kiloton Missiles and it doesn’t even have any weaponry besides the two frontal laser Cannons, yet you want to try and tell me that it can take on an ISD, when it’d get one shotted by an Acclamator’s 24 point defense Cannons which fire in the 6 megaton ranges of power, let alone its actual Quad Turbolasers (which it has 12 of) which has 200 Gigatons per shot? Hilarious as all hell. Star Fox is featless fodder and the same goes for the majority of its weaponry and vehicles. The arwing is their only debatable advantage and that’s only due to its speed, which is Mach 4.2 in atmosphere. The ARC-170 with Deflector Shields switched on can hit over Mach 14 with ease, and that’s lowballing the speed. Then the Arwings single advantage is lost and it dies in one shot to the ARC-170’s infinitely more powerful laser Cannons, no evidence their not even on and has to be manually activated for only a short while barrel roll shielding can deflect blasts measured in the tens to hundreds of tons of TNT ranges of explosive energy. Not even getting into Proton Torpedoes which have Kiloton Yields and would be more than capable of taking out quite a lot of the Cornerian Army’s featless capital ships too.
 

 

 

The regular cornerian fighters are featless as shit too, so don’t even try bringing them up. Star Fox is literally featless trash with barely any lore or technical specifications about its weaponry to back itself up that would get itself chewed up and the bones spat out by the UNSC or Covenant from the Halo series. Covenant even more so. Any Star Wars faction post 7,000 BBY is absolute overkill for even said Halo factions, let alone Star Fox. This isn’t even getting into how badly Star Fox factions get slaughtered in ground combat. I could go into high detail and present every single type of enemy and weapon that would do so and how easily they would do it, but if I did, we would be here forever (especially if it’s the Sith Empire, literally send down any Sith and they can solo an entire offensive with no issues whatsoever).

[Brendan1021]

On 4/11/2016 at 2:57 PM, That Ain't Falco said:

Small balancing issue: Barrel rolling. It deflects, like, everything that isn't a continuous beam, or a missile. Everyone is screwed if an Arwing shows up.

Hardly, TIE Defenders, TIE Avengers, ARC-170’s, V-Wing’s, Aurek-Class Strikefighters, and TIE Hunters all tear the Arwing a new one once deflector Shields are switched on. Then the arwing’s one advantage, speed, is negated by a large margin.

[Kath]

I'd say there's no point in comparing these two. One has been a cinematic marvel since the 70's and the other was a video game series which leaned more on the arcade style of entertainment, as well as other random things like the Rareware IP-takeover bullshittery which really shows that little reverence was given to Star Fox to begin with. At this point, the series rests on the fans.

What about Galaga vs the House Atreides?

Spoiler

Also my dad can beat up your dad, Brendan.

 

[hoo]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:22 PM, Brendan1021 said:

Except it isn’t, lmao. I’ve seen your idiotic arguments for the Star Fox side, and they’re all based off nothing more than the classic no limits fallacies and asspulling.
 

 

here’s a little fact for your dumbass. A single Acclamator-Class Assault Ship or Harrower Class Dreadnought from 3,000+ BBY ago solos the entire Lylat system with no effort. The Great Fox was nearly obliterated by not even 1 kiloton Missiles and it doesn’t even have any weaponry besides the two frontal laser Cannons, yet you want to try and tell me that it can take on an ISD, when it’d get one shotted by an Acclamator’s 24 point defense Cannons which fire in the 6 megaton ranges of power, let alone its actual Quad Turbolasers (which it has 12 of) which has 200 Gigatons per shot? Hilarious as all hell. Star Fox is featless fodder and the same goes for the majority of its weaponry and vehicles. The arwing is their only debatable advantage and that’s only due to its speed, which is Mach 4.2 in atmosphere. The ARC-170 with Deflector Shields switched on can hit over Mach 14 with ease, and that’s lowballing the speed. Then the Arwings single advantage is lost and it dies in one shot to the ARC-170’s infinitely more powerful laser Cannons, no evidence their not even on and has to be manually activated for only a short while barrel roll shielding can deflect blasts measured in the tens to hundreds of tons of TNT ranges of explosive energy. Not even getting into Proton Torpedoes which have Kiloton Yields and would be more than capable of taking out quite a lot of the Cornerian Army’s featless capital ships too.
 

 

 

The regular cornerian fighters are featless as shit too, so don’t even try bringing them up. Star Fox is literally featless trash with barely any lore or technical specifications about its weaponry to back itself up that would get itself chewed up and the bones spat out by the UNSC or Covenant from the Halo series. Covenant even more so. Any Star Wars faction post 7,000 BBY is absolute overkill for even said Halo factions, let alone Star Fox. This isn’t even getting into how badly Star Fox factions get slaughtered in ground combat. I could go into high detail and present every single type of enemy and weapon that would do so and how easily they would do it, but if I did, we would be here forever (especially if it’s the Sith Empire, literally send down any Sith and they can solo an entire offensive with no issues whatsoever).