Moral grey in a Star Fox game

[14432]

I had this though in mind about a hypothetical invasion of Lylat from an interstellar empire from outside the system/galaxy. However unlike the Aparoids, the Anglars or Andross's Empire, This Empire would be shown as having innocent civillians populating several of it's worlds.

the concept here is that as the Cornerian Army and StarFox launch attacks on the Enemy's civillian planets a moral dilemma should occur for both the player and the characters: Yes you are blasting away at the enemy's cities and having a fun time, but at the same time (when you eventually run into them) you would realize that you're also slaughtering civillians who had no business to be in the war in the first place.

It would eventually come to the conclusion that the enemy isn't entirely as evil as Corneria thinks of them to be (benevolent empire hijacked by aggressive expansionist political party invading lylat for political reasons) and that the entire superpower is not the true enemy, the true enemy is the leader or members of government running the empire, however Starfox must be careful in dealing with them so as not cause an empire-wide collapse in government.
The idea here is for the introduction of a moral grey into black and white conflicts in the games (made even worse in Zero.)

 

I mean in Assault, they commited genocide in the end of that game

[That Ain't Falco]

There's already some serious moral grey in Assault. For example: The Corneria mission. As in, all of it.

[14432]

6 hours ago, That Ain't Falco said:

There's already some serious moral grey in Assault. For example: The Corneria mission. As in, all of it.

i mean for something worse, like slaughtering an entire fleet of enemy civillian evacuees, under the impression that they were warships

[Ori]

I think I've heard this story before. However I doubt we're thinking the same thing if you're talking about the Aparoids. It's hard to see a humanized threat in a StarFox game-- mostly because this ground isn't very covered in the light-hearted tone of the series.

(Tidbit about genocide, though it doesn't directly apply as grey morals)

Spoiler

You mention genocide in Assault, however, here's some context. By the end of the game it's also revealed that the Aparoid 'civilization' is no more than a hive mind based on "all for us"-attitude, no exceptions. They go as far as unfeelingly assimilating entire colonies and using civilians and even military against their own allies and just crush opposition in a war of attrition, using fallen enemies as tools for both infantry and psychological warfare (it's harder to pull the trigger if you're fighting what was formerly a friendly, worse so when your old comrades get a fate worse than death).

To which I say, where have we seen this as well?

Oh, ahem. Where are my manners. Here's what I meant:

Aparoids weren't doing things a lot differently from how the Reapers (all-consuming, hostile cybernetic lifeforms-- ring any bells?) played their cards. In the ME saga, it's pretty much widely accepted every indoctrinated/assimilated being is already gone past restoration. Sure, that didn't seem to apply in General Pepper's case (Plot Armor perhaps?), but everything else-- Pigma, the Cornerian ground units, those didn't seem to be recoverable anymore. The one excerpt above mentions not even children would be spared from assimilation, and the implications of what had to be done about them don't leave much room for imagination.

It's still 'grey' considering some would not only feel uncomfortable shooting what once was a comrade, but also be struck with inhibition against shooting their fallen colleagues, even if it would be necessary against a threat that uses reanimation of the dead as a weapon.

Now, that's assuming the enemy force is an acceptable target such as wretched abominations, and the above was just a point that the 'genocide' of the Aparoids was a necessary 'evil'. When the situation involves humanized opponents, the grey really shows.

A would-be enemy civilization, with cities, population and so forth, that would make for a grey and grey dilemma: Should the opposing force have started the war and driven Lylat back to a 'last stand' retreat, animosity would have remained encouraged against the enemies and an all-out retaliation would be likely when given the chance.

Cue "The Inferno" in ACZ (linked above), at that moment the Allied Forces devastate an industrial city, first under the premise of a precision bombing strike on arms manufacturing sites, but then it escalates to the whole city being bombarded. (Both PJ and Pixy are struck with revolt, but Pixy is just too jaded to object vocally, arguing that "this is war".) The grey starts to show as the Allies, depicted first as the people fighting a just cause, indiscriminately bomb civilian and military sectors alike.

The other side is that the target, in this case, was Belka-- Depicted as an imperialist and militaristic nation led by a "extreme right-wing party". There are a number of references to fascism when Belka is involved, so this doesn't make them good guys either, further emphasized by the fact they proceed with a scorched-earth protocol once Belkan GHQ considers the city lost.

Bottom line is, both sides in a more humanized and 'gray' conflict would have the civilians and neutral parties trying to stay out of the conflict, and at some point the locations would overlap such as in 'enemy' cities. Either way, a conflict between nations is far from having clear-cut corners.

Whatever the case, I think factoring this into account when thinking of SF is thinking a little too hard as the series in question covers a much smaller amount of content of this sort. Granted, it would otherwise contribute to character development with personal moral dilemmas, but I digress.

[14432]

1 hour ago, Orbi said:

I think I've heard this story before. However I doubt we're thinking the same thing if you're talking about the Aparoids. It's hard to see a humanized threat in a StarFox game-- mostly because this ground isn't very covered in the light-hearted tone of the series.

(Tidbit about genocide, though it doesn't directly apply as grey morals)

  Reveal hidden contents

You mention genocide in Assault, however, here's some context. By the end of the game it's also revealed that the Aparoid 'civilization' is no more than a hive mind based on "all for us"-attitude, no exceptions. They go as far as unfeelingly assimilating entire colonies and using civilians and even military against their own allies and just crush opposition in a war of attrition, using fallen enemies as tools for both infantry and psychological warfare (it's harder to pull the trigger if you're fighting what was formerly a friendly, worse so when your old comrades get a fate worse than death).

To which I say, where have we seen this as well?

Oh, ahem. Where are my manners. Here's what I meant:

Aparoids weren't doing things a lot differently from how the Reapers (all-consuming, hostile cybernetic lifeforms-- ring any bells?) played their cards. In the ME saga, it's pretty much widely accepted every indoctrinated/assimilated being is already gone past restoration. Sure, that didn't seem to apply in General Pepper's case (Plot Armor perhaps?), but everything else-- Pigma, the Cornerian ground units, those didn't seem to be recoverable anymore. The one excerpt above mentions not even children would be spared from assimilation, and the implications of what had to be done about them don't leave much room for imagination.

It's still 'grey' considering some would not only feel uncomfortable shooting what once was a comrade, but also be struck with inhibition against shooting their fallen colleagues, even if it would be necessary against a threat that uses reanimation of the dead as a weapon.

Now, that's assuming the enemy force is an acceptable target such as wretched abominations, and the above was just a point that the 'genocide' of the Aparoids was a necessary 'evil'. When the situation involves humanized opponents, the grey really shows.

A would-be enemy civilization, with cities, population and so forth, that would make for a grey and grey dilemma: Should the opposing force have started the war and driven Lylat back to a 'last stand' retreat, animosity would have remained encouraged against the enemies and an all-out retaliation would be likely when given the chance.

Cue "The Inferno" in ACZ (linked above), at that moment the Allied Forces devastate an industrial city, first under the premise of a precision bombing strike on arms manufacturing sites, but then it escalates to the whole city being bombarded. (Both PJ and Pixy are struck with revolt, but Pixy is just too jaded to object vocally, arguing that "this is war".) The grey starts to show as the Allies, depicted first as the people fighting a just cause, indiscriminately bomb civilian and military sectors alike.

The other side is that the target, in this case, was Belka-- Depicted as an imperialist and militaristic nation led by a "extreme right-wing party". There are a number of references to fascism when Belka is involved, so this doesn't make them good guys either, further emphasized by the fact they proceed with a scorched-earth protocol once Belkan GHQ considers the city lost.

Bottom line is, both sides in a more humanized and 'gray' conflict would have the civilians and neutral parties trying to stay out of the conflict, and at some point the locations would overlap such as in 'enemy' cities. Either way, a conflict between nations is far from having clear-cut corners.

Whatever the case, I think factoring this into account when thinking of SF is thinking a little too hard as the series in question covers a much smaller amount of content of this sort. Granted, it would otherwise contribute to character development with personal moral dilemmas, but I digress.

so how would a StarFox story go if there was game with humanized opponents as well as (over the course of the story) Corneria slowly being re-painted as being "villainous" in the eyes of Star Fox.

Most importantly how would each team member in Star Fox (this includes Krystal) react and cope with the moral dilemma of killing enemy civillians.

[Robert Monroe]

>comitted genocide at the end of assault

 

is obliterating a literally soulless species of robot bugs that tried to commit genocide on your entire system -really- genocide? B:

[unoservix]

hey now, they weren't literally soulless, the aparoid queen was bypassing evolution by stealing souls

little did she know, you have to be born with one C:

[ArwingFan]

And as we all know, thats totally how souls and evolution work.

[14432]

2 hours ago, unoservix said:

hey now, they weren't literally soulless, the aparoid queen was bypassing evolution by stealing souls

little did she know, you have to be born with one C:

Souls as in krazoa spirits?

[Robert Monroe]

9 hours ago, unoservix said:

hey now, they weren't literally soulless, the aparoid queen was bypassing evolution by stealing souls

little did she know, you have to be born with one C:

UNO I DIDNT EVEN KNOW YOU WERE STILL HERE BUT I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL FUCKING CHOKE YOU

[unoservix]

2 hours ago, Robert Monroe said:

UNO I DIDNT EVEN KNOW YOU WERE STILL HERE BUT I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL FUCKING CHOKE YOU

hey einstein i'm on your side :c