Starfox: Is it meant to be a rail shooter forever or other?

[DZComposer]

I think Steve Ballmer explains the reason for the state of the SF series quite well:

8To-6VIJZRE

Argonaut, EAD, Rare, Namco, Q Games, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers...

The series needs a permanent home instead of being passed around like a damn hot potato.

[Mr. Foxer]

The very first video game was invented in 1958 (Tennis for Two). It wasn't until the 70's when video games became popular and common enough to even be considered as a non-fad, that's true. However, 3D FLIGHT-based games didn't appear until the late 80's AT LEAST. And that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about a tennis game, we're talking about Star Fox.

Secondly, your argument about developers not making games based on fan suggestions is void. For one, I can apply the exact same argument to the other position and it is just as damaging. It's true, game developers won't make a game JUST due to popular demand, but they WILL change their direction in how a game is made if fans are adamant enough.

Thirdly, no, if Star Fox Adventures hadn't come out, there's little you can do to predict where Star Fox would have been. It probably wouldn't be dead. After all, the N64 went all the way through with NO Metroid games, yet when Gamecube came around, they got 2 console titles and 4 portable titles. Two more have sinse come to the Wii and one more is on the way. Star Fox wouldn't have died, IMO. In fact, the only reason they used Dinosaur Planet was because Nintendo's own Star Fox game they had been developing was lagging. If Star Fox Adventures hadn't provided that quick fix, Nintendo would have probably eventually worked out the kinks in their game and released it later. Who knows, the very same game could be in development right now for the Wii. One thing we know for sure is, we don't know what would have happened.

Researched and I quote:

Early games used interactive electronic devices with various display formats. The earliest example is from 1947—a "Cathode ray tube Amusement Device" was filed for a patent on January 25, 1947 by Thomas T. Goldsmith Jr. and Estle Ray Mann, and issued on December 14, 1948 as U.S. Patent 2455992.

Inspired by radar display tech, it consisted of an analog device that allowed a user to control a vector-drawn dot on the screen to simulate a missile being fired at targets, which were drawings fixed to the screen.

Other early examples include:

    The NIMROD computer at the 1951 Festival of Britain

    OXO a tic-tac-toe Computer game by Alexander S. Douglas for the EDSAC in 1952

    Tennis for Two, an interactive game engineered by William Higinbotham in 1958

    Spacewar!, written by MIT students Martin Graetz, Steve Russell, and Wayne Wiitanen's on a DEC PDP-1 computer in 1961.

Now what you're saying is that Nintendo had another SF in development and that they trashed it for a game like Dinosaur Planet? The only reason anyone would do something like that is if they had absolutely no idea what to do for a next game, thus meaning that Nintendo only made another SF because of Dinosaur Planet.

[Guest FoXXX]

I think Steve Ballmer explains the reason for the state of the SF series quite well:

8To-6VIJZRE

Argonaut, EAD, Rare, Namco, Q Games, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers...

The series needs a permanent home instead of being passed around like a damn hot potato.

Steve Ballmer is right about something :o

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I agree with you there, DZ.

I wonder who'll take over Star Fox next?

God forbid it be L.J.N., though I think L.J.N. is dead now. 

I might like to see a little bit o' free roam in Star Fox...  :wink:

[Mr. Krystal]

Now what you're saying is that Nintendo had another SF in development and that they trashed it for a game like Dinosaur Planet? The only reason anyone would do something like that is if they had absolutely no idea what to do for a next game, thus meaning that Nintendo only made another SF because of Dinosaur Planet.

And yet they did. The development on their own game stalled. That doesn't mean it was cancelled, it just means they took the easy way out. It's not trashed. Remember, Nintendo never throws things away. The Mii system has been in off-and-on again development since the Game Boy. The new Zelda Wii has been in development since around the time of Wind Waker. There's a Kirby game that's been in development since before the Gamecube, and it's still not out yet. Your conclusion is incorrect.

[Falcory]

And yet they did. The development on their own game stalled. That doesn't mean it was cancelled, it just means they took the easy way out. It's not trashed. Remember, Nintendo never throws things away. The Mii system has been in off-and-on again development since the Game Boy. The new Zelda Wii has been in development since around the time of Wind Waker. There's a Kirby game that's been in development since before the Gamecube, and it's still not out yet. Your conclusion is incorrect.

Errr even though I partly agree, some series HAVE been kinda thrown away. Kid Icarus and Ice Climbers come to mind. Sure we saw Representatives for them in Smash Bros. but they haven't had any new titles for years. There HAS been rumors of a New Kid Icarus game however, but because of the hype of Pit in Smash that might be just what it is: Rumors.

[Mr. Foxer]

And yet they did. The development on their own game stalled. That doesn't mean it was cancelled, it just means they took the easy way out. It's not trashed. Remember, Nintendo never throws things away. The Mii system has been in off-and-on again development since the Game Boy. The new Zelda Wii has been in development since around the time of Wind Waker. There's a Kirby game that's been in development since before the Gamecube, and it's still not out yet. Your conclusion is incorrect.

Well if a game was in development for so long as say

There's a Kirby game that's been in development since before the Gamecube, and it's still not out yet.

then why did Nintendo decide to go with Dinosaur Planet instead of sticking with their "original plan". Nintendo didn't wait, they just went with DP.

[DZComposer]

And yet they did. The development on their own game stalled. That doesn't mean it was cancelled, it just means they took the easy way out. It's not trashed. Remember, Nintendo never throws things away. The Mii system has been in off-and-on again development since the Game Boy. The new Zelda Wii has been in development since around the time of Wind Waker. There's a Kirby game that's been in development since before the Gamecube, and it's still not out yet. Your conclusion is incorrect.

You forgot Pikmin 3 and Kid Icarus 2.

And I'm sure between the two of us, we're forgetting more.

I'm curious as to where you heard of the canned Nintendo SF game. I'm surprised that I haven't heard of it before. If word of this would have come out during the Great Exodus, I can't imagine how worse it would have made that situation (and if it had, I most certainly would have remembered the outrage). I'm glad it didn't.

[Mr. Krystal]

You forgot Pikmin 3 and Kid Icarus 2.

And I'm sure between the two of us, we're forgetting more.

I'm curious as to where you heard of the canned Nintendo SF game. I'm surprised that I haven't heard of it before. If word of this would have come out during the Great Exodus, I can't imagine how worse it would have made that situation (and if it had, I most certainly would have remembered the outrage). I'm glad it didn't.

I read it in an article discussing the creation of Dinosaur Planet. It went into surprising detail about the internal conflict between Nintendo, Rare, and Microsoft. The article was published long after Star Fox Adventures, which might be why you didn't hear about it.

then why did Nintendo decide to go with Dinosaur Planet instead of sticking with their "original plan". Nintendo didn't wait, they just went with DP.

As I said, development stalled, and they wanted to get a SF game out quickly. They took the easy way out because they noticed Sabre looked a lot like Fox McCloud, and Rare still was required to do one more game for Nintendo under their contract.

Sure we saw Representatives for them in Smash Bros. but they haven't had any new titles for years. There HAS been rumors of a New Kid Icarus game however, but because of the hype of Pit in Smash that might be just what it is: Rumors.

Remember. Kid Icarus had.... two games. Ice Climbers had... one game. These are not "long-running series" of Nintendo's, famous though they may be.

[Falcory]

I read it in an article discussing the creation of Dinosaur Planet. It went into surprising detail about the internal conflict between Nintendo, Rare, and Microsoft. The article was published long after Star Fox Adventures, which might be why you didn't hear about it.

Got a link? A scan of the article?

Remember. Kid Icarus had.... two games.

....Errr so did Starfox before Adventures came out.

[Mr. Krystal]

Got a link? A scan of the article?

Found it!

http://gc.kombo.com/article.php?artid=4209&pg=4

The relevant quote:

You see, Nintendo around this time had begun very early development on a Star Fox adventure game that took place on an unspecified planet in the Lylat System. The title hadn't even gotten to playable status yet, so everything was still pretty much in the air. Nintendo wanted to get the title out in time for the Gamecube's launch, but it didn't look like that was going to happen, so they had begun shopping around for a complete, or near-complete project that could be converted into what they needed.

....Errr so did Starfox before Adventures came out.

The span of time between their releases was greater:

1993 - Star Fox

1995 - Widely publicized and expected Star Fox 2

1997 - Star Fox 64

That's two and a half games in a span of 4 years.

2002 - Star Fox Adventures

5 years to the next game.

Compare to Kid Icarus:

1986 - Kid Icarus

1991 - Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters

Two games in a span of 5 years, years before Star Fox was even a twinkle in Dylan Cuthbert's eye. Then nothing but cameos and rereleases for the next 19 years. If it was equivalent with Star Fox, there would have been a Kid Icarus game on the N64 in 1996. Explain to me how it's a long-running series again?

[SPEAKERnight.]

Sadly, Kid Icarus is the Alex Kidd of Nintendo. (Alex Kidd was the first "mascot' of SEGA prior to Sonic, with more games being released, but none of the recognition)

[Falcory]

Found it!

http://gc.kombo.com/article.php?artid=4209&pg=4

The relevant quote:

Yeah I read this in tons of articles before. Also with the Starfox arcade. I gotta admit I'm a little disappointed. I thought it was something I never heard of....

Anyhoo on the subject of the unnamed Adventure game, it's hard to tell. Although it's quite feasible that they could still be working on it, (Man that would be awesome sauce. ) I wouldn't get my hopes up to high.

The span of time between their releases was greater:

1993 - Star Fox

1995 - Widely publicized and expected Star Fox 2????

1997 - Star Fox 64

That's two and a half games in a span of 4 years.

2002 - Star Fox Adventures

5 years to the next game.

Compare to Kid Icarus:

1986 - Kid Icarus

1991 - Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters

Two games in a span of 5 years, years before Star Fox was even a twinkle in Dylan Cuthbert's eye. Then nothing but cameos and rereleases for the next 19 years. If it was equivalent with Star Fox, there would have been a Kid Icarus game on the N64 in 1996. Explain to me how it's a long-running series again?

Whoa whoa whoa! I'm no expert, but I don't think Starfox 2 should even count here.

And um I never said it was up to Starfox standards. That much is certain. I was just pointing out that Nintendo DOES throw things away. In particular, things that are not very popular in the public. Which actually kinda proves a point....

Kid Icarus was famous in hardcore Gamer's eyes, but it wasn't so well known to standard gamers. This could be ANOTHER possible reason Nintendo rushed a Starfox project. If it got stale in the public's eyes, it wouldn't sell as much in the future. Of course, Starfox's rep now is to the point that it can probably survive off such games as Adventures and Assault for years. But back then going off of just Starfox and Starfox 64, that may have been kinda risky.

[DZComposer]

That article does not put a smile on my face. The fact that Nintendo was apparently planning a genre shift all along is shocking to me. That said, their ground-up SF adventure game likely would have been an easier pill to swallow for the fandom, as there would likely have been more vehicular combat, and Fox would in all probability have his blaster and other sci-fi weapons (IE the way it should be).

If this is true (the article cites no sources), then I am disgusted with what Nintendo did. All they wanted an early GCN game on the shelves with "Star Fox" on the label, without care to what was in it. I suppose it is mere luck that they chose to convert a title that was already a solid game. What if they had chosen something else? I would expect EA to pull some stupid shit like that, but not Nintendo.

Maybe the widely accepted interpretation of the Miyamoto NP quote was accurate. If he truly cared about the series, he would have had the clout to be a major voice against that idea.

Also, I was under the impression that Nintendo terminated the relationship with Rare, not that Rare was bought out from under them.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

That article does not put a smile on my face. The fact that Nintendo was apparently planning a genre shift all along is shocking to me. That said, their ground-up SF adventure game likely would have been an easier pill to swallow for the fandom, as there would likely have been more vehicular combat, and Fox would in all probability have his blaster and other sci-fi weapons (IE the way it should be).

If this is true (the article cites no sources), then I am disgusted with what Nintendo did. All they wanted an early GCN game on the shelves with "Star Fox" on the label, without care to what was in it. I suppose it is mere luck that they chose to convert a title that was already a solid game. What if they had chosen something else? I would expect EA to pull some stupid shit like that, but not Nintendo.

Maybe the widely accepted interpretation of the Miyamoto NP quote was accurate. If he truly cared about the series, he would have had the clout to be a major voice against that idea.

Also, I was under the impression that Nintendo terminated the relationship with Rare, not that Rare was bought out from under them.

^ this

Sadly, you can't whitewash history...

I would've liked to have had Krystal introduced intro the series in a better way.

[Mr. Krystal]

Whoa whoa whoa! I'm no expert, but I don't think Starfox 2 should even count here.

That's why I said "two and a half games." Everyone knew there was another Star Fox game there, it was just never released.

And um I never said it was up to Starfox standards. That much is certain. I was just pointing out that Nintendo DOES throw things away. In particular, things that are not very popular in the public. Which actually kinda proves a point....

But they DIDN'T! There's a Kid Icarus game in development RIGHT NOW! What did Nintendo throw away? I haven't seen any evidence they have.

[Guest FoXXX]

That article does not put a smile on my face. The fact that Nintendo was apparently planning a genre shift all along is shocking to me. That said, their ground-up SF adventure game likely would have been an easier pill to swallow for the fandom, as there would likely have been more vehicular combat, and Fox would in all probability have his blaster and other sci-fi weapons (IE the way it should be).

If this is true (the article cites no sources), then I am disgusted with what Nintendo did. All they wanted an early GCN game on the shelves with "Star Fox" on the label, without care to what was in it. I suppose it is mere luck that they chose to convert a title that was already a solid game. What if they had chosen something else? I would expect EA to pull some stupid shit like that, but not Nintendo.

Maybe the widely accepted interpretation of the Miyamoto NP quote was accurate. If he truly cared about the series, he would have had the clout to be a major voice against that idea.

Also, I was under the impression that Nintendo terminated the relationship with Rare, not that Rare was bought out from under them.

I wished now they would have made SFAdv from scratch

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I wished now they would have made SFAdv from scratch

Me too!  That rail shooting/flying segment of SF Adv., *pokes finger down throat and gags*

[Falcory]

But they DIDN'T! There's a Kid Icarus game in development RIGHT NOW! What did Nintendo throw away? I haven't seen any evidence they have.

Errr that's a rumor dude. What proof do you have of that?

I hope there IS one in development to be honest, but it could be just hype from people seeing Pit in Smash.