History of Starfox fandom

[Guest FoXXX]

I agree. Dinosaur Planet should have been Dinosaur Planet, and Star Fox should have stayed out of it.

Maybe SFC would have never been released if it wasn't for Adv :o

[fox1235]

Sorry I couldn't reply had all these errands anyway thanks dz for all the info through I got this question I want to ask a question I'm probaply going to sound stupid for this but wat exactly happen to arwing landing, I know they can't post anything on the website  and the creator tries to explain on the homepage but I just don't get it(I'm not that computer smart)

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I agree. Dinosaur Planet should have been Dinosaur Planet, and Star Fox should have stayed out of it.

Yep.  Star Fox (and Krystal) should've been kept out of it....the protagonist shoulda been, say, an anthropomorphic Sabre Tooth Tiger.

Krystal should have been introduced into the series in a different way.

[DZComposer]

Sorry I couldn't reply had all these errands anyway thanks dz for all the info through I got this question I want to ask a question I'm probaply going to sound stupid for this but wat exactly happen to arwing landing, I know they can't post anything on the website  and the creator tries to explain on the homepage but I just don't get it(I'm not that computer smart)

AL's main page hasn't been updated in a while, but the forums are still active. Around the same activity level as here, maybe even a little more.

If memory serves, that post was about one AL's page scripts having a security flaw that was exploited by one of those automated webserver worms and caused a link to drive-by malware downloads.

Stealth had proposed a site redesign at one point, but I haven't heard anything about it in months.

[Guest FoXXX]

AL's main page hasn't been updated in a while, but the forums are still active. Around the same activity level as here, maybe even a little more.

If memory serves, that post was about one AL's page scripts having a security flaw that was exploited by one of those automated webserver worms and caused a link to drive-by malware downloads.

Stealth had proposed a site redesign at one point, but I haven't heard anything about it in months.

I like SF:O more than AL :)

[Falcory]

The new Krystal "fans" were only part of the equation.

A lot of people played SF64. It was the launch week record holder for a while.  There WAS stuff like that (IE Seppel) for SF64 characters, but it didn't damage the community at the time.

Timing is everything. An influx of people like this combined with a fan rejection of the direction the series was going in led to the exodus.

Saying that older fans are "too complainy" misses the point, and is an ad hominem attack on us older fans rather than being a rebuttal of our arguments. I don't appreciate it.

No. To be honest I said what I said, because basically your blaming SF Adventures for what stupid people did. I'm AM actually acknowledging that flame wars happened of course. I can believe it. But Adventures is not to blame for that, stupid people are. Blaming the game is just being so blind at what is actually going on around you. To think that it's almost like you think Starfox is "Life" or something....

And actually on another note, you said the older Starfox fans turned into "Elites" and starting shunning the "Adventures" fans. Not to put a finer point on it but, sounds like THAT'S what started the trouble. I mean you're complaining about how Adventures Fans started all this crap, and to be honest sound like the older fans are really to blame.

The point is this: We got into Star Fox in-part because it was a space shooter and in-part because the anthro characters appealed to us.  These are not singular reasons to a lot of us. It's an AND, not an OR.

Making a Star Fox dungeon adventure game is like making a Zelda vehicular combat game. Zelda fans would be pissed. Would you call them "too complainy?"

Actually I would.

When Spirit Tracks was first coming out I heard a bunch of people say things. Needless to say, that's quieted down a bit but honestly that was "Too Complainy" too.

You should really only complain a lot if the game was really bad. Adventures had it's flaws, that's noted, but it's not the crap game that you try to make it out to be. I listen to some people sometimes, and I noticed they really attack Command more than anything else. And even though people are usually right in what they say, Command wasn't as bad as a game they tried to make it out as. People like to act like Command was some crap on a stick with some game buttons pressed between, when in reality COMMAND was a LOT better than some of the other games on market. I agree on the fact that it's not the best Starfox game, but it's not as bad as people try to say it is.

Now that in general doesn't bother me. EVERYONE has a different opinion, EVERYONE likes different things. But to tell you the truth I get a little peeved off when people try to act like their opinion is fact. Because see what you're doing there is basically trying to force OTHER people into sharing your opinion, and they don't have to. People can make up their minds for themselves unless they're one of those people who just wanna follow the crowd.

Older SF fans, are the same as the New SF fans. Of course the Older SF fans appreciate the older games more, but there's no reason to fight. Or to bicker over the Genre. Starfox is a "wildcard" now. And instead of dwelling on the past, on what could have been, people need to start heading toward the future. Especially since Starfox is STILL an Arcade shooter, it's not like they totaled that completely. It's just merged with another genre now.

Like I said before we all have opinions. DZ I know you like the Arcade shooting, Me personally I like both. But there's no need to fight over how Starfox should be. Starfox is what it IS. And being fans, we should just enjoy what we can from it. 

[Kursed]

last paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say here.

So I like Krystal so I like adventures to tell you the truth if it hadn't been for adventures i would not be here and I'm sure a lot of you here will say "I don't care." Well theres enough people here that will say "I care."

[Guest FoXXX]

No. To be honest I said what I said, because basically your blaming SF Adventures for what stupid people did. I'm AM actually acknowledging that flame wars happened of course. I can believe it. But Adventures is not to blame for that, stupid people are. Blaming the game is just being so blind at what is actually going on around you. To think that it's almost like you think Starfox is "Life" or something....

And actually on another note, you said the older Starfox fans turned into "Elites" and starting shunning the "Adventures" fans. Not to put a finer point on it but, sounds like THAT'S what started the trouble. I mean you're complaining about how Adventures Fans started all this crap, and to be honest sound like the older fans are really to blame.

Actually I would.

When Spirit Tracks was first coming out I heard a bunch of people say things. Needless to say, that's quieted down a bit but honestly that was "Too Complainy" too.

You should really only complain a lot if the game was really bad. Adventures had it's flaws, that's noted, but it's not the crap game that you try to make it out to be. I listen to some people sometimes, and I noticed they really attack Command more than anything else. And even though people are usually right in what they say, Command wasn't as bad as a game they tried to make it out as. People like to act like Command was some crap on a stick with some game buttons pressed between, when in reality COMMAND was a LOT better than some of the other games on market. I agree on the fact that it's not the best Starfox game, but it's not as bad as people try to say it is.

Now that in general doesn't bother me. EVERYONE has a different opinion, EVERYONE likes different things. But to tell you the truth I get a little peeved off when people try to act like their opinion is fact. Because see what you're doing there is basically trying to force OTHER people into sharing your opinion, and they don't have to. People can make up their minds for themselves unless they're one of those people who just wanna follow the crowd.

Older SF fans, are the same as the New SF fans. Of course the Older SF fans appreciate the older games more, but there's no reason to fight. Or to bicker over the Genre. Starfox is a "wildcard" now. And instead of dwelling on the past, on what could have been, people need to start heading toward the future. Especially since Starfox is STILL an Arcade shooter, it's not like they totaled that completely. It's just merged with another genre now.

Like I said before we all have opinions. DZ I know you like the Arcade shooting, Me personally I like both. But there's no need to fight over how Starfox should be. Starfox is what it IS. And being fans, we should just enjoy what we can from it.

100% agreed with this.

Also, Command, it's a fun game, however I just don't want to see it part of canon, I'm not denying it being a fun game to play.

[Zicka]

Those pesky complaining fans. We'll knock away *that* pillar of support and replace it with furries chasing blue tail.

Whoever thought of like... listening to the fans. *rollseyes*

But to tell you the truth I get a little peeved off when people try to act like their opinion is fact. Because see what you're doing there is basically trying to force OTHER people into sharing your opinion, and they don't have to. People can make up their minds for themselves unless they're one of those people who just wanna follow the crowd.

Older SF fans, are the same as the New SF fans. Of course the Older SF fans appreciate the older games more, but there's no reason to fight. Or to bicker over the Genre. Starfox is a "wildcard" now. And instead of dwelling on the past, on what could have been, people need to start heading toward the future. Especially since Starfox is STILL an Arcade shooter, it's not like they totaled that completely. It's just merged with another genre now.

Simple fact is. Starfox and Starfox 64 were *great* games. People liked them because they had honest to goodness QUALITY gameplay that put them in the top lists for a long time.

Adventures, Assault, and command, are not good games. And their sales reflect this. People only like those games because they have dog people in them and are willing to forgive the gameplay just to get thier furry fix.

Videogames are an artform, we the consumers have a right to critique said art. Saying that people 'complain too much' is just another way of saying that you don't want to hear another's informed opinion.

Fan A: No, please Nintendo, I can't take another spoonful of your poop, why must you fix things that were never broken.

Fan B: Shut up, stop complaining, open your mouth wide and take what's being given.

[Falcory]

Those pesky complaining fans. We'll knock away *that* pillar of support and replace it with furries chasing blue tail.

Whoever thought of like... listening to the fans. *rollseyes*

Yeah...sure whatever.

Simple fact is. Starfox and Starfox 64 were *great* games. People liked them because they had honest to goodness QUALITY gameplay that put them in the top lists for a long time.

Adventures, Assault, and command, are not good games. And their sales reflect this. People only like those games because they have dog people in them and are willing to forgive the gameplay just to get their furry fix.

Videogames are an artform, we the consumers have a right to critique said art. Saying that people 'complain too much' is just another way of saying that you don't want to hear another's informed opinion.

Fan A: No, please Nintendo, I can't take another spoonful of your poop, why must you fix things that were never broken.

Fan B: Shut up, stop complaining, open your mouth wide and take what's being given.

I say I hate it when people FORCE their opinion on others. Case in point:

Falcory: Zicka I just happen to think Adventures was pretty cool.

Zicka: No it isn't! It's dog crap! ADMIT IT!

Now on Command I agree with. But Adventures and Assault. Dude? Have you even CHECKED how well they did? SFAd and SFAs are actually on the players choice list. You know those yellow banners at the top?:

Yeah. THAT ONE. That means that Adventures and Assault were BESTSELLING games and no less than that because Nintendo only put "players choice" banners on best selling games. And even though I never remembering seeing an ACTUAL sales record on how sales of all the Starfox games went, I see quite a few polls on other sites and usually Starfox Assault and Starfox 64 are tied up for being the best games.

So this is exactly what I'm talking about. Just because you didn't like the game you can't go and just say "They had poor sales records". Granted I can understand your opinion if you don't like the games, but don't try to act like they're crap and that WE have to accept that, because I myself DO like these  games, and if you want to say "Well you're not an old Starfox fan so you don't know" I'm going to be honest with you. I PLAYED the old Starfox games beforehand. (Snes Starfox a little at a friends house when I was younger) I HAD Starfox 64 before I even played Adventures, and even though I admit it was a good game, Adventures was what pulled me into the fandom. So yeah. I'm oldschool too. Not as much because I wasn't really a fan back then, but I played the games dude. So I actually prefer some of the new games to the old,  not that I came in with the new games right off the bat. 

[Guest FoXXX]

I think the copy of SFAs has a "Best seller" logo  :)

[Guest Julius Quasar]

AL's main page hasn't been updated in a while, but the forums are still active. Around the same activity level as here, maybe even a little more.

If memory serves, that post was about one AL's page scripts having a security flaw that was exploited by one of those automated webserver worms and caused a link to drive-by malware downloads.

Stealth had proposed a site redesign at one point, but I haven't heard anything about it in months.

That's one of the reasons I left AL (please don't bother asking me what my name was there, I won't tell you)...that, and a lot of other reasons.  I burned all my bridges at AL (no, I didn't leave an "I'm out, See ya' in Hell" thread/post, nor did I post shock material, or links to shock sites...)

I like SF:O more than AL

me too! 

Like I said before we all have opinions. DZ I know you like the Arcade shooting, Me personally I like both. But there's no need to fight over how Starfox should be. Starfox is what it IS. And being fans, we should just enjoy what we can from it. 

I agree.

[DZComposer]

No. To be honest I said what I said, because basically your blaming SF Adventures for what stupid people did. I'm AM actually acknowledging that flame wars happened of course. I can believe it. But Adventures is not to blame for that, stupid people are. Blaming the game is just being so blind at what is actually going on around you. To think that it's almost like you think Starfox is "Life" or something....

And actually on another note, you said the older Starfox fans turned into "Elites" and starting shunning the "Adventures" fans. Not to put a finer point on it but, sounds like THAT'S what started the trouble. I mean you're complaining about how Adventures Fans started all this crap, and to be honest sound like the older fans are really to blame.

You miss the point again: You are essentially saying that people should like it because it has the name Star Fox, and not complain when the fundamental core of what make a game a "Star Fox Game" is changed.

The reactions towards the new people may have been a little over the top, yes, but can you blame them when there is a massive influx of "krystalz iz hawtz!!!!!!111elvenone?"

When Spirit Tracks was first coming out I heard a bunch of people say things. Needless to say, that's quieted down a bit but honestly that was "Too Complainy" too.

But this is not a genre-shift. Spirit Trakcs is still a dungeon adventure game.

You should really only complain a lot if the game was really bad. Adventures had it's flaws, that's noted, but it's not the crap game that you try to make it out to be. I listen to some people sometimes, and I noticed they really attack Command more than anything else. And even though people are usually right in what they say, Command wasn't as bad as a game they tried to make it out as. People like to act like Command was some crap on a stick with some game buttons pressed between, when in reality COMMAND was a LOT better than some of the other games on market. I agree on the fact that it's not the best Starfox game, but it's not as bad as people try to say it is.

Even the best art can be critiqued. If I don't like something about it, I have all right to say so.

Now that in general doesn't bother me. EVERYONE has a different opinion, EVERYONE likes different things. But to tell you the truth I get a little peeved off when people try to act like their opinion is fact. Because see what you're doing there is basically trying to force OTHER people into sharing your opinion, and they don't have to. People can make up their minds for themselves unless they're one of those people who just wanna follow the crowd.

And you're not with your 'quit complaining?' After all, isn't that the goal of debate? To attempt to persuade the other party to your position?

Older SF fans, are the same as the New SF fans. Of course the Older SF fans appreciate the older games more, but there's no reason to fight. Or to bicker over the Genre. Starfox is a "wildcard" now. And instead of dwelling on the past, on what could have been, people need to start heading toward the future. Especially since Starfox is STILL an Arcade shooter, it's not like they totaled that completely. It's just merged with another genre now.

Like I said before we all have opinions. DZ I know you like the Arcade shooting, Me personally I like both. But there's no need to fight over how Starfox should be. Starfox is what it IS. And being fans, we should just enjoy what we can from it. 

Says the one who came into this thread and stated old fans complain too much as if it were fact.

Also, accepting anything Nintendo shovels onto my plate is stupid. When they do something nonsensical, they deserve to be called out on it.

Also, you falsely assume that just because I criticize a game that I didn't enjoy it. I don't think ANY of the SF games are poorly made or unenjoyable. I actually played through SFAd multiple times. It's a pretty good dungeon adventure. But, that does not change my opinion that Nintendo should have forced Rare to make it a SF game.

I say I hate it when people FORCE their opinion on others. Case in point:

Falcory: Zicka I just happen to think Adventures was pretty cool.

Zicka: No it isn't! It's dog crap! ADMIT IT!

And you're not forcing your opinion on us by telling us to "quit complaining?" Seriously, you just made yourself look like a hypocrite.

[Kursed]

I'd like to say that the  purpose of this topic has been met and that we really should stop before this debate gets more heated then it needs to be.

[Falcory]

You miss the point again: You are essentially saying that people should like it because it has the name Star Fox, and not complain when the fundamental core of what make a game a "Star Fox Game" is changed.

No this isn't the point I meant.

The reactions towards the new people may have been a little over the top, yes, but can you blame them when there is a massive influx of "krystalz iz hawtz!!!!!!111elvenone?"

THIS is the point I meant.  If people are JUST that silly to hate a game because they're other stupid people SAYING that, then to be honest I just find that as a lack of maturity.

And on a second note. In my time I have seen hundreds of porn of various video game and comic book characters. Krystal, Wonder Woman, Laura Croft, Princess Peach, pretty much all of the Starfox females, Teen titans, HUNDREDS of media related icons.

Do I like them? No. Do I say the show show/game, shouldn't have made the females look so hot? Hell no. You see because basically for people in this world all the media character has to be is female for them to run off with it. (And sometimes not even that.) You just have to admit there are some sick-minded people out there, and you know what? It ain't gonna stop. People are always going to be doing new things with yiff and porn, and getting sicker and sicker with it.

These are them however. Not the media. So blaming the media for it, is just so childish. It's like if I created a female characters, fans turned her into some sort of slut, and then someone blames ME for making the character.

Good example: I'm an avid watcher of the Ben 10 series. It's a pretty good show for you people who never watched it. Anyways OT....

Ben 10 after awhile decided to change the series format. They no longer wanted Ben as a ten year old. The wanted him to be fourteen. So that meant his cousin Gwen HAD to turn older.

Now after Ben 10: Alien Force, (Series new format) was out for a little while I started noticing people talking about Gwen was hot, and sexy. I started noticing Hentai pictures of her on the web. Was I supposed to blame the new look she had gotten for Ben 10 AF? No of course not. That's stupid. You can obviously see that these are other people OUTSIDE the media doing this.   

But this is not a genre-shift. Spirit Trakcs is still a dungeon adventure game.

Yeah you're- wait a gosh darn second!

But Spirit tracks adds a new GENRE into the series! So actually by DZ's logic it IS! Because all Starfox did was add a new Genre, since it still has arcade shooting! Sure WE ALL know it was crap, but whose to say Spirit's Tracks "Dungeon Adventuring" wasn't crap? Therefore based on this evidence I'm declaring that Zelda officially made a genre shift! YAYZ! *Throws streamers*

Putting aside my goofiness, (Lol) there are even more games I could point out like this. Metroid Prime is a First Person shooter now. But it still kept original aspects from the old series. Mario used to be a platformer. But now I see hundreds of his games that look more like Adventure than a platformer. 

Even the best art can be critiqued. If I don't like something about it, I have all right to say so.

Right on. But remember, other people have different opinions to. So just because they have that one, don't act like they MUST see your point of view.

And you're not with your 'quit complaining?' After all, isn't that the goal of debate? To attempt to persuade the other party to your position?

Actually debating is interactive conversation between two or more people to establish something as fact. Granted some things people have as a opinion CAN be proven as fact, but this isn't one of those times. People have a right to what they like in video-games.

Says the one who came into this thread and stated old fans complain too much as if it were fact.

Based off what you told me, SOUNDS like they do. And if you consider yourself an older fan, well MAYBE they do. But honestly I seen a lot of people complain about this subject and they usually declare themselves "older fans". So really even though I'VE seen a lot of older fans do this I'm still not categorizing them that way. But I have seen some yoinks alright. That's a fact.

Also, accepting anything Nintendo shovels onto my plate is stupid. When they do something nonsensical, they deserve to be called out on it.

That's true. And that's basically why I had started the "Smash Bros Rant" thread. But the difference is I actually try to complain about the things that don't make sense. If someone saying that it's stupid to put in "subspace emissary" because the Nintendo characters don't work well together in a story, well that to be honest is quite silly. (Bad part about it, I've heard people say that before.) Even though Smash Bros, is a fighting game, nothing was wrong with putting another genre in, this time a Story Platformer. Especially since Smash Bros. IS still a fighting game. Same with Starfox. Nothing was wrong with putting on foot exploration. On another note The Starfox team are mercs, and even if they WEREN'T you would think at least one or two of their missions would take place on ground.

Also, you falsely assume that just because I criticize a game that I didn't enjoy it. I don't think ANY of the SF games are poorly made or unenjoyable. I actually played through SFAd multiple times. It's a pretty good dungeon adventure. But, that does not change my opinion that Nintendo should have forced Rare to make it a SF game.

Actually no not you. I may have insinuated that about Zicka, but I was saying YOU are blaming SFAd unfairly for the so-called "Fall of the Fandom".

And you're not forcing your opinion on us by telling us to "quit complaining?" Seriously, you just made yourself look like a hypocrite.

Lol, try to twist my words around if you like. I think you pretty much understand that I was saying "People should stop stating their opinion as fact." Besides, I don't control people, or exercise any influence over them, people can bitch about what they want as long as it doesn't break the rules.

[Star Fox Runner]

Those pesky complaining fans. We'll knock away *that* pillar of support and replace it with furries chasing blue tail.

Whoever thought of like... listening to the fans. *rollseyes*

I have been a fan of Star Fox LONG before I became a furry, so I know the opinions of both. Plus, I had never officially joined the fandom until I had played ALL of the games, I had my complaints, but I still liked them all. So I am both a furry, AND a classic Star Fox fan. The originals thanks to the gameplay, Adventures thanks to the new twist, (I happen to LOVE Zelda) Assault because of the throwback to the originals with the ground combat, and Command because of the attempt to add a story. (Some parts I liked, some I didn't.)

I know you are trying to state your opinion, but it doesn't help when you bash the other group. Plus I don't appreciate your furry comment.

We know now that thanks to the mixing of the fanbases, when Nintendo tries to cater more to one of the crowds, the other is going to complain. I'm not saying quit complaining, I'm just saying that we need to learn to conduct our debates in a more civilized manner.

Videogames are an artform, we the consumers have a right to critique said art. Saying that people 'complain too much' is just another way of saying that you don't want to hear another's informed opinion.

Fan A: No, please Nintendo, I can't take another spoonful of your poop, why must you fix things that were never broken.

Fan B: Shut up, stop complaining, open your mouth wide and take what's being given.

Video Games ARE an art form, I am a very passionate defender of this fact. But there is a problem with your argument about critiquing. There is a difference between pointing out flaws, and being a pompous ass about it, I AM NOT saying you were being an ass, but that is how some people act when stating their opinions and not giving the other group leeway. So I am not saying to quit sharing our opinions and follow the other crowd, but to not be so radical in our opinions.

Which leads back to my original argument, we to stop staying in our little camps, and discuss these kinds of conversations in a more civilized manner.

[Kursed]

Thank you Runner.

[Guest FoXXX]

I have been a fan of Star Fox LONG before I became a furry, so I know the opinions of both. Plus, I had never officially joined the fandom until I had played ALL of the games, I had my complaints, but I still liked them all. So I am both a furry, AND a classic Star Fox fan. The originals thanks to the gameplay, Adventures thanks to the new twist, (I happen to LOVE Zelda) Assault because of the throwback to the originals with the ground combat, and Command because of the attempt to add a story. (Some parts I liked, some I didn't.)

I know you are trying to state your opinion, but it doesn't help when you bash the other group. Plus I don't appreciate your furry comment.

We know now that thanks to the mixing of the fanbases, when Nintendo tries to cater more to one of the crowds, the other is going to complain. I'm not saying quit complaining, I'm just saying that we need to learn to conduct our debates in a more civilized manner.

Video Games ARE an art form, I am a very passionate defender of this fact. But there is a problem with your argument about critiquing. There is a difference between pointing out flaws, and being a pompous ass about it, I AM NOT saying you were being an ass, but that is how some people act when stating their opinions and not giving the other group leeway. So I am not saying to quit sharing our opinions and follow the other crowd, but to not be so radical in our opinions.

Which leads back to my original argument, we to stop staying in our little camps, and discuss these kinds of conversations in a more civilized manner.

^This :|

[Guest Julius Quasar]

You miss the point again: You are essentially saying that people should like it because it has the name Star Fox, and not complain when the fundamental core of what make a game a "Star Fox Game" is changed.

The reactions towards the new people may have been a little over the top, yes, but can you blame them when there is a massive influx of "krystalz iz hawtz!!!!!!111elvenone?"

But this is not a genre-shift. Spirit Trakcs is still a dungeon adventure game.

Even the best art can be critiqued. If I don't like something about it, I have all right to say so.

Also, accepting anything Nintendo shovels onto my plate is stupid. When they do something nonsensical, they deserve to be called out on it.

Agreed on those points...

I have been a fan of Star Fox LONG before I became a furry, so I know the opinions of both. ...I had my complaints, but I still liked them all. So I am both a furry, AND a classic Star Fox fan. The originals thanks to the gameplay, Adventures thanks to the new twist, (I happen to LOVE Zelda) Assault because of the throwback to the originals with the ground combat...

I know you are trying to state your opinion, but it doesn't help when you bash the other group. Plus I don't appreciate your furry comment.

We know now that thanks to the mixing of the fanbases, when Nintendo tries to cater more to one of the crowds, the other is going to complain. I'm not saying quit complaining, I'm just saying that we need to learn to conduct our debates in a more civilized manner.

Video Games ARE an art form, I am a very passionate defender of this fact. But there is a problem with your argument about critiquing. There is a difference between pointing out flaws, and being a pompous ass about it, I AM NOT saying you were being an ass, but that is how some people act when stating their opinions and not giving the other group leeway. So I am not saying to quit sharing our opinions and follow the other crowd, but to not be so radical in our opinions.

Which leads back to my original argument, we to stop staying in our little camps, and discuss these kinds of conversations in a more civilized manner.

Well said, Runner.  Attacking each other from behind computers is childish.

[DZComposer]

THIS is the point I meant.  If people are JUST that silly to hate a game because they're other stupid people SAYING that, then to be honest I just find that as a lack of maturity.

I never said that that was the only reason.

Actually, most of the other older fans I've talked to do not hate SFAd solely for that reason. It was just one on a list, the genre-shift and tacked-on nature of the Star Fox elements were the main reason.

And on a second note. In my time I have seen hundreds of porn of various video game and comic book characters. Krystal, Wonder Woman, Laura Croft, Princess Peach, pretty much all of the Starfox females, Teen titans, HUNDREDS of media related icons.

Do I like them? No. Do I say the show show/game, shouldn't have made the females look so hot? Hell no. You see because basically for people in this world all the media character has to be is female for them to run off with it. (And sometimes not even that.) You just have to admit there are some sick-minded people out there, and you know what? It ain't gonna stop. People are always going to be doing new things with yiff and porn, and getting sicker and sicker with it.

That's a Strawman. I said one of the main reasons she became a huge sex object is because of the way she was dressed. I said nothing about her figure or whether or not it was "right" for Rare to have designer her clothing that way.

I know that there is an irrational internet sensation with porn of everything.(rule 34, etc.).

You are mistaking what I said regarding a cause of the exodus as a critique of the game. It wasn't. It was a critique of the morons who came into the fandom for the porn and what reaction that caused.

Yeah you're- wait a gosh darn second!

But Spirit tracks adds a new GENRE into the series! So actually by DZ's logic it IS! Because all Starfox did was add a new Genre, since it still has arcade shooting! Sure WE ALL know it was crap, but whose to say Spirit's Tracks "Dungeon Adventuring" wasn't crap? Therefore based on this evidence I'm declaring that Zelda officially made a genre shift! YAYZ! *Throws streamers*

Uh... no. Once again, you set up a straw man and knock him down. I never said that adding an element to gameplay is a genre-shift.

Spirit tracks is still a dungeon adventure at it's core. Yes, they added the tran sim part to it, but c'mon.

Star Fox Adventures was not an arcade shooter at it's core, but rather a dungeon adventure with some tacked-on rail shooting. That's very different that what happened with Spirit Tracks, as the core game genre was not changed.

Putting aside my goofiness, (Lol) there are even more games I could point out like this. Metroid Prime is a First Person shooter now. But it still kept original aspects from the old series. Mario used to be a platformer. But now I see hundreds of his games that look more like Adventure than a platformer. 

Side-scrolling shooting to first-person shooting is an evolution. I will grant you that it is a genre-shift of sorts, but it is one that makes sense. Space rail shooter to magical dungeon adventure is not an evolution, it is nonsensical.

Two things about Mario:

1. How has Mario become an adventure? I've played the vast majority of recent Mario games, and they still feel like platformers to me.

2. Mario is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to Genre Shifts. Mario can do anything because he is Mario. Very very few series can do that. The reason Mario can get away with it is that Mario is synonymous with Nintendo, and has appeared in many types of games since the 1980s.

Right on. But remember, other people have different opinions to. So just because they have that one, don't act like they MUST see your point of view.

Actually debating is interactive conversation between two or more people to establish something as fact. Granted some things people have as a opinion CAN be proven as fact, but this isn't one of those times. People have a right to what they like in video-games.

I don't disagree, but accusing me of trying to press my opinion as fact when you've been forceful in your own argument does not add anything.

Also, I do feel that my statements about what happened after SFAd came out have some pretty solid basis. You speak from theory, I speak from what I observed at OTG and starfox.org/Lylat.net from 2001-2003.

Based off what you told me, SOUNDS like they do. And if you consider yourself an older fan, well MAYBE they do. But honestly I seen a lot of people complain about this subject and they usually declare themselves "older fans". So really even though I'VE seen a lot of older fans do this I'm still not categorizing them that way. But I have seen some yoinks alright. That's a fact.

One of the reasons I am defensive is after witnessing the fracture of the SF community, you come place the blame on those of us who liked Star Fox for what it was as of SF64 under this banner of "if we wouldn't have complained it wouldn't have happened," which I can tell you would have never happened in this community. When Nintendo took the series that we didn't like, what did you expect we would do? It's like Metallica singing Country. It was a nonsensical change for the series. Of course we'd make our opinions known about it. The fact that you label us as "too complainy" is an insult. YOU WEREN'T THERE.

That's true. And that's basically why I had started the "Smash Bros Rant" thread. But the difference is I actually try to complain about the things that don't make sense. If someone saying that it's stupid to put in "subspace emissary" because the Nintendo characters don't work well together in a story, well that to be honest is quite silly. (Bad part about it, I've heard people say that before.) Even though Smash Bros, is a fighting game, nothing was wrong with putting another genre in, this time a Story Platformer. Especially since Smash Bros. IS still a fighting game. Same with Starfox. Nothing was wrong with putting on foot exploration. On another note The Starfox team are mercs, and even if they WEREN'T you would think at least one or two of their missions would take place on ground.

Oh, but our argument is that SFAd was a nonsensical change, just like you argue that SSE is.

Many of us are not opposed to ground missions in Star Fox (though there are some, I am not one of them), but when said ground missions involve magic sticks and riding dinosaurs instead of blasters and Landmasters the word 'nonsensical' comes to mind. In fact, if SFAd were designed from the ground-up to be a Star Fox game, then it likely would have gotten better reception in the fanbase.

...I was saying YOU are blaming SFAd unfairly for the so-called "Fall of the Fandom".

It isn't "unfairly." I witnessed it with my own eyes.

Lol, try to twist my words around if you like. I think you pretty much understand that I was saying "People should stop stating their opinion as fact." Besides, I don't control people, or exercise any influence over them, people can bitch about what they want as long as it doesn't break the rules.

And I am saying that if you are going to say that, that you should take your own advice and stop forcing your opinion as if it were fact.

I'm not trying to control anyone, and I would have this discussion with you even if I weren't an admin. That means nothing to this debate.

[Mr. Foxer]

I don't mean to back seat mod but this thread should be locked

That's what I Said about 2 pages ago.

I saw, 2 pages long forgotten

[Kursed]

I don't mean to back seat mod but this thread should be locked

That's what I Said about 2 pages ago. And I quote.

I'd like to say that the  purpose of this topic has been met and that we really should stop before this debate gets more heated then it needs to be.

actully it was about a half page ago ,but  with all the paragraphs it seems like a couple pages.

[Falcory]

I never said that that was the only reason.

Actually, most of the other older fans I've talked to do not hate SFAd solely for that reason. It was just one on a list, the genre-shift and tacked-on nature of the Star Fox elements were the main reason.

Only reason or not, that was still one of the reasons, and I find it quite childish.

Now about the tacked-on Starfox elements, that's a debate and I agree with you on that. However I usually overlook this because Nintendo was low on time in the first place. If they had tried to start a SF game from scratch, instead of combining with another project, chances are we would have ended up with a VERY crappy SF game. When people consider this, and STILL insist that Adventures should have been made better, that's when I see them as being too complainy again. Nintendo did what they could. Expecting more out of them from that particular project is acting somewhat spoiled.

That's a Strawman. I said one of the main reasons she became a huge sex object is because of the way she was dressed. I said nothing about her figure or whether or not it was "right" for Rare to have designer her clothing that way.

...This is still not a good reason. Was Krystal in some sort of skimpy bikini? No. Was she wearing some sort of short skirt with fishnet stockings? No. Krystal was dressed like a native. Anyone that picks something sexual from THAT, is just being perverted. Once again, this isn't Nintendo's fault.

You are mistaking what I said regarding a cause of the exodus as a critique of the game. It wasn't. It was a critique of the morons who came into the fandom for the porn and what reaction that caused.

Well good. Because that's to who the blame should be going too.

Uh... no. Once again, you set up a straw man and knock him down. I never said that adding an element to gameplay is a genre-shift.

Spirit tracks is still a dungeon adventure at it's core. Yes, they added the tran sim part to it, but c'mon.

Star Fox Adventures was not an arcade shooter at it's core, but rather a dungeon adventure with some tacked-on rail shooting. That's very different that what happened with Spirit Tracks, as the core game genre was not changed.

Well this was the first game where Starfox ever landed foot on ground. They obviously were going to focus more on that.

In Zelda: Wind Waker, a lot of the elements in the game didn't focus on Dugeon gameplay. Adventure played somewhat of a larger role, more than ANY other Zelda game I've seen to be honest. (Haven't played Spirit Tracks yet btw.) This was because that new feature, that new adventure element had been added, and they wanted to focus on it. The only thing is Dungeons were still more numerous the the Arwing missions in Adventures but again, you can probably blame that on time constraints.

Side-scrolling shooting to first-person shooting is an evolution. I will grant you that it is a genre-shift of sorts, but it is one that makes sense. Space rail shooter to magical dungeon adventure is not an evolution, it is nonsensical.

Magical Dungeon Adventure? I mean C'mon I know Adventures had it's similarities to Zelda but that's a little far gone.

The aspect of it is, is that planets exist in the Starfox universe. So what I don't get is....why is it so damn hard for people to think the Starfox team would NEVER explore one? Certain Missions they have are bound to take them to places that an Arwing cannot do the job. It's like....

I got the perfect illustration.

Metroid. Samus is a bounty hunter. Granted she doesn't do much of that but OT....

She explores planets. That's usually what she does to accomplish her missions. But I bet you there are times when she would have to use her Gunship to take enemy fighters down. And they MAY be future games where in levels she may do just that.

At the moment I typed that I can bet they are three kinds of people. There are those going "Hm that sounds like a cool idea" those who are going "Hm, don't really care either way" and those going " ARE YOU FREAKIN CRAZY?! NO WAY THAT WOULD WORK!!!!!"

To be honest though, even though people are entitled to an opinion, isn't it silly to say it's stupid, and that this doesn't fit in the Metroid series? I mean, she's a bounty hunter. She DOES fly in space. It makes a little sense that she would have to do such a thing at least ONCE in a while.

That's how some of the SF are. Provided I could COMPLETELY understand if they don't like on foot missions. But to say it's "nonsense" well that right there doesn't make any sense. It's not hard to believe that that's what Starfox may do once in a while. And right there I think people are trying to state that that's the reason "on foot" is bad. 

Two things about Mario:

1. How has Mario become an adventure? I've played the vast majority of recent Mario games, and they still feel like platformers to me.

2. Mario is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to Genre Shifts. Mario can do anything because he is Mario. Very very few series can do that. The reason Mario can get away with it is that Mario is synonymous with Nintendo, and has appeared in many types of games since the 1980s.

The second one I agree with, but in the recent Mario games Mario's goal is no longer to reach the end of the level. He now has to find stars, or do other buttloads of things. Once you threw out reaching the end of the level in the Mario games, it stopped being a platformer.

I don't disagree, but accusing me of trying to press my opinion as fact when you've been forceful in your own argument does not add anything.

Also, I do feel that my statements about what happened after SFAd came out have some pretty solid basis. You speak from theory, I speak from what I observed at OTG and starfox.org/Lylat.net from 2001-2003.

On the contrary. I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything. I understand and respect that you don't like Adventures. It just some things you state as fact aren't true, such as it being the cause of "The Fall of the Fandom".

And if they came out pretty solid, that's gonna lead me right into my next answer.....

One of the reasons I am defensive is after witnessing the fracture of the SF community, you come place the blame on those of us who liked Star Fox for what it was as of SF64 under this banner of "if we wouldn't have complained it wouldn't have happened," which I can tell you would have never happened in this community. When Nintendo took the series that we didn't like, what did you expect we would do? It's like Metallica singing Country. It was a nonsensical change for the series. Of course we'd make our opinions known about it. The fact that you label us as "too complainy" is an insult. YOU WEREN'T THERE.

Nothing is wrong with liking Starfox the way it was, but shunning the Adventures fans is where the problem starts. You said they did that yourself, so I'm going by what you say. And since you said your "statements about what happened after SFAd came out having some pretty solid basis" unless you're LYING, I didn't HAVE to be there to figure out how that made some of the SFAd fans feel.

Oh, but our argument is that SFAd was a nonsensical change, just like you argue that SSE is.

Many of us are not opposed to ground missions in Star Fox (though there are some, I am not one of them), but when said ground missions involve magic sticks and riding dinosaurs instead of blasters and Landmasters the word 'nonsensical' comes to mind. In fact, if SFAd were designed from the ground-up to be a Star Fox game, then it likely would have gotten better reception in the fanbase.

Um dude? I didn't think SSE was. I thougt it was a GOOD change and to be honest hope to it again in the next Smash title.

And dude, you KNOW how horrible it would have turned out if they DID build it from scratch. They were on time constraints, and rushed games usually almost NEVER turn out good. It's a miracle SF Ad came out to be a good game. >_<

It isn't "unfairly." I witnessed it with my own eyes.

You witnessed STUPID PEOPLE with your own eyes. Adventures had NOTHING to do with sending the fans in a fury. Like I said people got too complainy and to critical of the old series and THEY'RE the ones that sent it off the deep end. The fact that you seem to be ignoring this point everytime I point it out makes me think you're in denial.

And I am saying that if you are going to say that, that you should take your own advice and stop forcing your opinion as if it were fact.

I'm not forcing an opinion of anything. I'm simply making observations and for some odd reason you want to shoot them down.

I'm not trying to control anyone, and I would have this discussion with you even if I weren't an admin. That means nothing to this debate.

?

What exactly do you mean "Even if I weren't an Admin"? Are you trying to say it's CRITICAL that you must change my mind as your admin duties?

And on a general note, DZ may lock this thread if he wishes, but no one here is breaking the rules. Yes admittedly the debate is getting a little hot, but you have to expect that from debates in the first place. If anyone is getting to the point that they are getting mad, and feel the need to flame, I suggest they just not read the thread in the first place.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

*this music plays as I rock in my rocking chair and swat someone with my cane*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekBtGBQJkEw

"In my day, we had the 3-D wire, polygon models for Star Fox, for a console called the Super Nintendo.  When I was a lad, me and the kids played the very first Star Fox.  The Super FX Chip was the bee's knees in those days, I tell ya' what..."  :P

[Falcory]

*this music plays as I rock in my rocking chair and swat someone with my cane*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekBtGBQJkEw

"In my day, we had the 3-D wire, polygon models for Star Fox, for a console called the Super Nintendo.  When I was a lad, me and the kids my age played the very first Star Fox.  The Super FX Chip was the bee's knees in those days, I tell ya' what..." 

....XD

Oh Julius Kong, how did you ever survive? XDDDDD