History of Starfox fandom

[Kursed]

OW!! That wasn't Nice....

and now for my famous use of quotes.

"That's enough ,boys."

[Guest Julius Quasar]

....XD

Oh Julius Kong, how did you ever survive? XDDDDD

*bops you with my cane*

"It wasn't so bad...although the audio dialogue from the characters was just chattering noises, though I heard Fox say things like 'Shield!', 'Wing Damage', 'Wing Repair', Incoming Enemy', 'Twin Blasters', and the whole 'Come in Corneria', 'Roger, I'm heading back to Corneria'...believe it or not, in those days, gaming consoles weren't hooked up to the internet! 

I remember when they were gonna introduce some female characters into Star Fox 2, the game that never saw the light of day!  There was Miyu Lynx, and Fay Spaniel.  There was gonna be that Fennic girl, Fara Phoenix, from the Itoh comics, and a sheep girl, so the legends say, but they were edged out for Fay and Miyu....Katt Monroe was a nice addition, although she wasn't officially part of Star Fox at the time..."   

[Falcory]

OW!! That wasn't Nice....

and now for my famous use of quotes.

"That's enough ,boys."

Erm....what we talkin about here? XD

*bops you with my cane*

"It wasn't so bad...although the audio dialogue from the characters was just chattering noises, though I heard Fox say things like 'Shield!', 'Wing Damage', 'Wing Repair', Incoming Enemy', 'Twin Blasters', and the whole 'Come in Corneria', 'Roger, I'm heading back to Corneria'...believe it or not, in those days, gaming consoles weren't hooked up to the internet! 

I remember when they were gonna introduce some female characters into Star Fox 2, the game that never saw the light of day!  There was Miyu Lynx, and Fay Spaniel.  There was gonna be that Fennic girl, Fara Phoenix, from the Itoh comics, and a sheep girl, so the legends say, but they were edged out for Fay and Miyu....Katt Monroe was a nice addition, although she wasn't officially part of Star Fox at the time..."   

*Hold hands over head and crouches*

Ah man...Cranky Kong and the cane. Good times. XD

[Guest Julius Quasar]

OW!! That wasn't Nice....

and now for my famous use of quotes.

"That's enough ,boys."

"Sorry I swatted ya' there, Kursed...my aim ain't what it used to be..."

*Hold hands over head and crouches*

Ah man...Cranky Kong and the cane. Good times. XD

"I myself remember the pre N64 days.  Super Nintendo was the last 'Old School Console' there was, at least for Nintendo.

If you wanna count N64, that's fine, but I still say it was the SNES."

[Guest FoXXX]

*this music plays as I rock in my rocking chair and swat someone with my cane*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekBtGBQJkEw

"In my day, we had the 3-D wire, polygon models for Star Fox, for a console called the Super Nintendo.  When I was a lad, me and the kids played the very first Star Fox.  The Super FX Chip was the bee's knees in those days, I tell ya' what..." 

:D

[Asper Sarnoff]

I have been a fan of Star Fox LONG before I became a furry, so I know the opinions of both. Plus, I had never officially joined the fandom until I had played ALL of the games, I had my complaints, but I still liked them all. So I am both a furry, AND a classic Star Fox fan. The originals thanks to the gameplay, Adventures thanks to the new twist, (I happen to LOVE Zelda) Assault because of the throwback to the originals with the ground combat, and Command because of the attempt to add a story. (Some parts I liked, some I didn't.)

I know you are trying to state your opinion, but it doesn't help when you bash the other group. Plus I don't appreciate your furry comment.

We know now that thanks to the mixing of the fanbases, when Nintendo tries to cater more to one of the crowds, the other is going to complain. I'm not saying quit complaining, I'm just saying that we need to learn to conduct our debates in a more civilized manner.

Video Games ARE an art form, I am a very passionate defender of this fact. But there is a problem with your argument about critiquing. There is a difference between pointing out flaws, and being a pompous ass about it, I AM NOT saying you were being an ass, but that is how some people act when stating their opinions and not giving the other group leeway. So I am not saying to quit sharing our opinions and follow the other crowd, but to not be so radical in our opinions.

Which leads back to my original argument, we to stop staying in our little camps, and discuss these kinds of conversations in a more civilized manner.

Just as I would have said it myself, expect I would have more spelling mistakes, and I haven't played Command yet.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

...I haven't played Command yet.

You're not missing a thing, believe-you-me  :wink:

[Guest FoXXX]

You're not missing a thing, believe-you-me 

You stole the words out of my mouth :P

[fox1235]

Hey guys was just at the OTG forum says that there site is expiring in 2010.

[Zicka]

Now about the tacked-on Starfox elements, that's a debate and I agree with you on that. However I usually overlook this because Nintendo was low on time in the first place. If they had tried to start a SF game from scratch, instead of combining with another project, chances are we would have ended up with a VERY crappy SF game. When people consider this, and STILL insist that Adventures should have been made better, that's when I see them as being too complainy again. Nintendo did what they could. Expecting more out of them from that particular project is acting somewhat spoiled.

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

oops

...This is still not a good reason. Was Krystal in some sort of skimpy bikini? No. Was she wearing some sort of short skirt with fishnet stockings? No. Krystal was dressed like a native. Anyone that picks something sexual from THAT, is just being perverted. Once again, this isn't Nintendo's fault.

http://peakfreaks.com/images/IMGP1234.JPG

She's dressed like a native... what exactly?

And she had a bikini top on, that's for sure.

In Zelda: Wind Waker, a lot of the elements in the game didn't focus on Dugeon gameplay. Adventure played somewhat of a larger role, more than ANY other Zelda game I've seen to be honest. (Haven't played Spirit Tracks yet btw.) This was because that new feature, that new adventure element had been added, and they wanted to focus on it. The only thing is Dungeons were still more numerous the the Arwing missions in Adventures but again, you can probably blame that on time constraints.

You still ran around and chopped stuff up, you still opened chests that contained items that would help you defeat the next boss. At it's core it was just like Ocarina of time. This is not the case with Starfox.

Magical Dungeon Adventure? I mean C'mon I know Adventures had it's similarities to Zelda but that's a little far gone.

http://gcclan.free.fr/wallpaper/sa_1024.jpg

The aspect of it is, is that planets exist in the Starfox universe. So what I don't get is....why is it so damn hard for people to think the Starfox team would NEVER explore one? Certain Missions they have are bound to take them to places that an Arwing cannot do the job. It's like....

If you think this, then you really don't know what the Starfox team of old were about.

You witnessed STUPID PEOPLE with your own eyes. Adventures had NOTHING to do with sending the fans in a fury. Like I said people got too complainy and to critical of the old series and THEY'RE the ones that sent it off the deep end. The fact that you seem to be ignoring this point everytime I point it out makes me think you're in denial.

I saw the same thing DZ describes. The starfox fandom went to crap after Adventures came out. =/

[Falcory]

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

oops

But it couldn't be delayed. They had delayed enough already. This is not hard to understand. Of course the game would have been better if made from scratch. But sadly this could have not been done.

http://peakfreaks.com/images/IMGP1234.JPG

She's dressed like a native... what exactly?

And she had a bikini top on, that's for sure.

Krystal wears a loin cloth first off. That's not part of any Bikini piece I've ever seen, and even if they are some, loinclothes are usually associated with natives. Krystal also wears a Diadem on her forehead, associated with Indonesian tribes. She also has tattoos, jewelry and tail braids (That can be taken as hair braids) that are all associated with tribal people. To just assume that she's wearing a "Metal Bikini" right off the bat without going in-depth shows just what YOU think of her yourself.

You still ran around and chopped stuff up, you still opened chests that contained items that would help you defeat the next boss. At it's core it was just like Ocarina of time. This is not the case with Starfox.

In Starfox, you still fly a plane, you can shoot asteroids and mines, DO A BARREL ROLL! (XD), and cut your way through with a boost! (Damn you Peppy! XDDDD)

Point is between this though? You did mostly exploring in Wind Waker, Just Like in Adventures you mostly did Dungeon adventuring. 

http://gcclan.free.fr/wallpaper/sa_1024.jpg

Errr and this proves what exactly?

If you think this, then you really don't know what the Starfox team of old were about.

AH! So we have a breakthrough here! This isn't the old Starfox team is it? No, it's the newer Starfox team. And as time goes on, people are bound to do different things. We can see this in a multitude of games. Take any Nintendo game and try to contradict me. I dare ya. 

I saw the same thing DZ describes. The starfox fandom went to crap after Adventures came out. =/

Because people started choosing sides right? One for the "Arcade Shooting", the other for the "Adventuring".  I'm not deneying this happened. I can certainly believe it did. But the fact is, that it was STUPID people's fault not Adventures.  There was no need to shun either side...people have opinions.

[Guest FoXXX]

But it couldn't be delayed. They had delayed enough already. This is not hard to understand. Of course the game would have been better if made from scratch. But sadly this could have not been done.

Krystal wears a loin cloth first off. That's not part of any Bikini piece I've ever seen, and even if they are some, loinclothes are usually associated with natives. Krystal also wears a Diadem on her forehead, associated with Indonesian tribes. She also has tattoos, jewelry and tail braids (That can be taken as hair braids) that are all associated with tribal people. To just assume that she's wearing a "Metal Bikini" right off the bat without going in-depth shows just what YOU think of her yourself.

In Starfox, you still fly a plane, you can shoot asteroids and mines, DO A BARREL ROLL! (XD), and cut your way through with a boost! (Damn you Peppy! XDDDD)

Point is between this though? You did mostly exploring in Wind Waker, Just Like in Adventures you mostly did Dungeon adventuring. 

Errr and this proves what exactly?

AH! So we have a breakthrough here! This isn't the old Starfox team is it? No, it's the newer Starfox team. And as time goes on, people are bound to do different things. We can see this in a multitude of games. Take any Nintendo game and try to contradict me. I dare ya. 

Because people started choosing sides right? One for the "Arcade Shooting", the other for the "Adventuring".  I'm not deneying this happened. I can certainly believe it did. But the fact is, that it was STUPID people's fault not Adventures.  There was no need to shun either side...people have opinions.

100% agree with this

and I think Star Fox is better in arwings, and landmasters I'm not saying it's bad to have Adventuring and on foot missions, I just prefer the rail shooting.

[Falcory]

100% agree with this

and I think Star Fox is better in arwings, and landmasters I'm not saying it's bad to have Adventuring and on foot missions, I just prefer the rail shooting.

You agree with a lot of stuff I say don't you? XD

[Mr. Foxer]

100% agree with this

and I think Star Fox is better in arwings, and landmasters I'm not saying it's bad to have Adventuring and on foot missions, I just prefer the rail shooting.

Arwing missions, no freedom

Landmaster, no freedom

Foot, freedom

[Kursed]

Arwing missions, no freedom

Landmaster, no freedom

Foot, freedom

I choose FREEDOM!!!!!!!!! I prefure being able to exlpore in my own  view so  that I can actually Feel like the character and  not some onlooker or spectator I want to  be the charater! I want to Run down the halls of the great fox to get into my arwing or whatever ship I want to fly where I want to go so i can avoid or encounter enemies I want the freedom that a  Real starfox member has as far as life..

[Guest FoXXX]

You agree with a lot of stuff I say don't you? XD

What you're saying makes sense though :)

[DZComposer]

Only reason or not, that was still one of the reasons, and I find it quite childish.

Yet you attack my position as if that was the only reason. I have stated repeatedly that the n00bs were a contributing factor, but not the only one. The cracks were forming before the n00bs arrived. They merely acted as an additional reason to leave the fandom.

Now about the tacked-on Starfox elements, that's a debate and I agree with you on that. However I usually overlook this because Nintendo was low on time in the first place. If they had tried to start a SF game from scratch, instead of combining with another project, chances are we would have ended up with a VERY crappy SF game. When people consider this, and STILL insist that Adventures should have been made better, that's when I see them as being too complainy again. Nintendo did what they could. Expecting more out of them from that particular project is acting somewhat spoiled.

Ninendo didn't make the game, Rare did. But that doesn't absolve Nintendo. DP was very near complete when Nintendo came in and made them change-up the project. This isn't a case of "Nintendo doing what they could," but rather a case of "Nintendo doing what they shouldn't."

...This is still not a good reason. Was Krystal in some sort of skimpy bikini? No. Was she wearing some sort of short skirt with fishnet stockings? No. Krystal was dressed like a native. Anyone that picks something sexual from THAT, is just being perverted. Once again, this isn't Nintendo's fault.

Attractive female in skimpy clothing. Do the math.

Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, it had the effect I described.

And once again you put words in my mouth with "Nintendo's Fault." Read this sentence again:

"I said nothing about her figure or whether or not it was "right" for Rare to have designer her clothing that way."

Well good. Because that's to who the blame should be going too.

Ah, but if Nintendo hadn't forced Rare to change DP, then they wouldn't have come. But like I said repeatedly: The idiots are not the reason the community fractured. They were part of it, but they weren't the root cause.

Well this was the first game where Starfox ever landed foot on ground. They obviously were going to focus more on that.

SF64 VS mode had an on-foot mode that you could unlock.

In Zelda: Wind Waker, a lot of the elements in the game didn't focus on Dugeon gameplay. Adventure played somewhat of a larger role, more than ANY other Zelda game I've seen to be honest. (Haven't played Spirit Tracks yet btw.) This was because that new feature, that new adventure element had been added, and they wanted to focus on it. The only thing is Dungeons were still more numerous the the Arwing missions in Adventures but again, you can probably blame that on time constraints.

You're still confusing the addition of new elements with a genre-shift. Apples to oranges, if you will.

There was a genre shift in the Zelda series, and it's called Link's Crossbow Training. But it was never advertised as a full game, but rather an interactive tech-demo for the Wii Zapper.

Adding new gameplay elements is not the same thing, and is in fact necessary to keep a series from getting stale. But to equate more of the adventure being in the overworld with taking a space fighter pilot and plopping him onto a primitive planet with a magic stick is a bit much.

SF64 -> SFAs = Adding gameplay elements

SF64 -> SFAd = Genre Shift

Magical Dungeon Adventure? I mean C'mon I know Adventures had it's similarities to Zelda but that's a little far gone.

Let's Review:

* Spell Stones

* Magic Staff Crystals

* Gatekeepers

* Krazoa Spirits

* Multiple mentions of the planet's core having an overabundance of "magical energy"

* Bafomdads

Only things missing were faeries.

The aspect of it is, is that planets exist in the Starfox universe. So what I don't get is....why is it so damn hard for people to think the Starfox team would NEVER explore one? Certain Missions they have are bound to take them to places that an Arwing cannot do the job. It's like....

That's what landmasters and blasters are for. Not magic sticks.

I got the perfect illustration.

Metroid. Samus is a bounty hunter. Granted she doesn't do much of that but OT....

She explores planets. That's usually what she does to accomplish her missions. But I bet you there are times when she would have to use her Gunship to take enemy fighters down. And they MAY be future games where in levels she may do just that.

At the moment I typed that I can bet they are three kinds of people. There are those going "Hm that sounds like a cool idea" those who are going "Hm, don't really care either way" and those going " ARE YOU FREAKIN CRAZY?! NO WAY THAT WOULD WORK!!!!!"

To be honest though, even though people are entitled to an opinion, isn't it silly to say it's stupid, and that this doesn't fit in the Metroid series? I mean, she's a bounty hunter. She DOES fly in space. It makes a little sense that she would have to do such a thing at least ONCE in a while.

Ah, but Samus' gunship isn't out of character for the Metroid series. You said it yourself: " I mean, she's a bounty hunter. She DOES fly in space. It makes a little sense that she would have to do such a thing at least ONCE in a while."

That's a little different than abandoning all technology which would have made Fox's mission go a lot smoother.

That's how some of the SF are. Provided I could COMPLETELY understand if they don't like on foot missions. But to say it's "nonsense" well that right there doesn't make any sense. It's not hard to believe that that's what Starfox may do once in a while. And right there I think people are trying to state that that's the reason "on foot" is bad. 

It's not the fact that Fox is on the ground that is nonsensical. It is that he is carrying around a freaking magic stick instead of a blaster and riding dinosaurs instead of his Landmaster.

The second one I agree with, but in the recent Mario games Mario's goal is no longer to reach the end of the level. He now has to find stars, or do other buttloads of things. Once you threw out reaching the end of the level in the Mario games, it stopped being a platformer.

Here is a good definition of a platformer: "The platform game (or platformer) is a video game genre characterized by jumping to and from suspended platforms or over obstacles (jumping puzzles). It must be possible to control these jumps and to fall from platforms or miss jumps."

It says nothing about a linear path to the goal. Yes, completing a task to continue on is reminiscent of an adventure game, but this is merely the addition of gameplay elements, NOT a genre shift. SMG still fits the definition above.

On the contrary. I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything. I understand and respect that you don't like Adventures. It just some things you state as fact aren't true, such as it being the cause of "The Fall of the Fandom".

And if they came out pretty solid, that's gonna lead me right into my next answer.....

Nothing is wrong with liking Starfox the way it was, but shunning the Adventures fans is where the problem starts. You said they did that yourself, so I'm going by what you say. And since you said your "statements about what happened after SFAd came out having some pretty solid basis" unless you're LYING, I didn't HAVE to be there to figure out how that made some of the SFAd fans feel.

Forget about the SFAd fans for a moment. We all know how they feel. They're still with us. I'm talking about those who left the fandom in 2001-2003. In 2001 when SFAd was announced, there was a collective WTF?! moment. Then there was a "Why the hell are they doing this?" And finally "Well, if this is where Star Fox is going, count me out." Are you saying that all of the space shooter fans who aren't adventure fans can't voice their opinions of their favorite shooter becomes an adventure?

All of this was BEFORE the game came out and the morons came in. Once they came, those that were hanging on by a thread let go.

On top of that, you need to understand the mindset of the state of the series. At that time there was serious doubt that there would be another Star Fox game.

Why?

Shigeru Miyamoto.

He said this in a Nintendo Power interview in 1997: "I'm not so attached to the Star Fox theme." The context was a little ambiguous, but the general consensus of the community at the time was "Miyamoto doesn't care about Star Fox."

Now take this mindset, and look at SFAd and you can see why the fans were so disgusted. This was the proof of Miyamoto's statements.

It is these things that are why I am making the point about you not being there.

Um dude? I didn't think SSE was. I thougt it was a GOOD change and to be honest hope to it again in the next Smash title.

I misread your post. I'll give you that one.

And dude, you KNOW how horrible it would have turned out if they DID build it from scratch. They were on time constraints, and rushed games usually almost NEVER turn out good. It's a miracle SF Ad came out to be a good game. >_<

That's not what I meant. I meant a Star Fox adventure game planned from the start to be a Star Fox game and given a reasonable development cycle.

You witnessed STUPID PEOPLE with your own eyes. Adventures had NOTHING to do with sending the fans in a fury. Like I said people got too complainy and to critical of the old series and THEY'RE the ones that sent it off the deep end. The fact that you seem to be ignoring this point everytime I point it out makes me think you're in denial.

Once again, you assume that this whole situation revolves around stupid people. But I can see why. It's easier to say "you're overreacting to morons" than it is to justify being silent on complete genre changes to your favorite game series. I'm not going to repeat all the points again, but read that explanation a few paragraphs up again to make sure you understand where the older fans are coming from before telling us to STFU.

I'm not forcing an opinion of anything. I'm simply making observations and for some odd reason you want to shoot them down.

Because you are ignoring my central points. You insist on sticking with this "idiots" meme, when at least once in each of my posts that the idiots were only part of the problem.

What exactly do you mean "Even if I weren't an Admin"? Are you trying to say it's CRITICAL that you must change my mind as your admin duties?

Read it again, and this time read the whole thing:

"I'm not trying to control anyone, and I would have this discussion with you even if I weren't an admin. That means nothing to this debate."

And on a general note, DZ may lock this thread if he wishes, but no one here is breaking the rules. Yes admittedly the debate is getting a little hot, but you have to expect that from debates in the first place. If anyone is getting to the point that they are getting mad, and feel the need to flame, I suggest they just not read the thread in the first place.

No flaming here. Point-counterpoint is not flame war.

[Zicka]

But it couldn't be delayed. They had delayed enough already. This is not hard to understand. Of course the game would have been better if made from scratch. But sadly this could have not been done.

It could have if they stuck with that philosophy. The movie Avatar was delyed for seven years because they were waiting for the technology capable of realising the scope. But you're right, why wait to make a good game when you can merely give another game a facelift and stick "Starfox" on the title?

Krystal wears a loin cloth first off. That's not part of any Bikini piece I've ever seen, and even if they are some, loinclothes are usually associated with natives. Krystal also wears a Diadem on her forehead, associated with Indonesian tribes. She also has tattoos, jewelry and tail braids (That can be taken as hair braids) that are all associated with tribal people. To just assume that she's wearing a "Metal Bikini" right off the bat without going in-depth shows just what YOU think of her yourself.

Loincloths are not part of any legit tribal garb either. It's a westernised view of what natives wear, and it's only found in movies and art that want to portray a sexy primeval girl.

Indonesian? Hah, they are usually mostly naked or wearing () This.

In Starfox, you still fly a plane, you can shoot asteroids and mines, DO A BARREL ROLL! (XD), and cut your way through with a boost! (Damn you Peppy! XDDDD)

It's not the core gameplay in adventures, Assault tried pulling back and saving the franchise... but Namco had to be Namco about it...

Errr and this proves what exactly?

Looks like a magical dungeon crawler to me.

AH! So we have a breakthrough here! This isn't the old Starfox team is it? No, it's the newer Starfox team. And as time goes on, people are bound to do different things. We can see this in a multitude of games. Take any Nintendo game and try to contradict me. I dare ya. 

Mario games still feel like Mario games, and Zelda games still feel like Zelda games.

[Kursed]

So I'm guessing by all this you dislike me ,Zicka ? Because I'm a Krystal Fangirl.

[Falcory]

It could have if they stuck with that philosophy. The movie Avatar was delyed for seven years because they were waiting for the technology capable of realising the scope. But you're right, why wait to make a good game when you can merely give another game a facelift and stick "Starfox" on the title?

To be quite frank here, if they delayed it Nintendo would have lost money. If they lost money we wouldn't have gotten a Starfox game PERIOD. And because of the money loss that they had gotten from that project, they possibly may have just decided to end the series right then and there.

You need to think about what the companies are going through. To be honest they don't care about how fans exactly want to see the series. They care about what sells. So yeah, at the point Starfox is now, they DO care a little because they want the fans to keep buying the games. But if Starfox happens to become a lost project, phfft. You can kiss the series's ass goodbye.

Loincloths are not part of any legit tribal garb either. It's a westernised view of what natives wear, and it's only found in movies and art that want to portray a sexy primeval girl.

Indonesian? Hah, they are usually mostly naked or wearing () This.

Right. I'm going to pretend you're a expert on Natives for a second.

Even if it's a western view, it also a MEDIA view. Do most ninjas dress up in all black pajamas? Not really. But it's a popular media icon for Ninjas. So if I see a person dressed up in all black I'm going to go: Hey, that dude is dressed like a Ninja!

Now basically what you're doing is coming in and saying: Pffft, Ninjas don't dress that way. How the hell do you think he's dressed like a Ninja?

In honesty you may be somewhat right, but in actuality you can understand why the other person may say "Ninja" because of the countless, Movies, Videogames, and Comic Books that have Ninjas dressed that way.

But the really dumb part about this is that you're arguing about it being a "Metal Bikini" which makes way less sense than it being tribal clothing. If you even took a second to think about it, why the hell would Krystal be wearing a Bikini in the first place? What, you think she went for a light swim before going to Krazoa Palace? Was she some sort of slave to Jabba the hut? What?

Honestly there's no good answer for that. And the fact that you really keep arguing this point in the first place, makes me think you want that outfit to stand for sex appeal.

It's not the core gameplay in adventures, Assault tried pulling back and saving the franchise... but Namco had to be Namco about it...

It wasn't the core, because a new genre had been added. So they focused more on the dungeon exploring more than the arcade shooting. Plus not to mention this again, but TIME LIMITS.

And sheesh is there a echo in here? Feels like I've explained this six-hundred times. Are people just skimming over this or what? XD

Looks like a magical dungeon crawler to me.

Based on the picture alone? You ever heard the saying: Don't judge a book by it's cover?

And to be honest what were we really debating about in this point anyways?

Mario games still feel like Mario games, and Zelda games still feel like Zelda games.

And the majority of Starfox games still feel like Starfox.

Not only that though, they've been a couple of Mario and Zelda games that don't feel like Mario and Zelda games. EVERYTHING goes through changes every once in a while.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

...you're arguing about it being a "Metal Bikini" which makes way less sense than it being tribal clothing. If you even took a second to think about it, why the hell would Krystal be wearing a Bikini in the first place? What, you think she went for a light swim before going to Krazoa Palace? Was she some sort of slave to Jabba the hut? What?

Metal Bikini? 

Maybe it's a chastity belt, at least the bottom part of it, anyway!    (j/k)

And the majority of Starfox games still feel like Starfox.

Not only that though, they've been a couple of Mario and Zelda games that don't feel like Mario and Zelda games. EVERYTHING goes through changes every once in a while.

^ this.

Whether you like Old School/Classic Star Fox, The one for the Cube, or the Portable...one thing's for sure, we can't let our differing preferences, or conflicting ideas of plausibility turn into forum flamewars.

The Nitty Gritty of it is, we're all Star Fox fans, or we wouldn't be here at forums like this if we weren't.  We just happen to be different kinds of fans, but our core interest is the Star Fox game(s) and and the main characters of it/them.

[Falcory]

Because of the length of this one, had to make a double post. Lol...

Yet you attack my position as if that was the only reason. I have stated repeatedly that the n00bs were a contributing factor, but not the only one. The cracks were forming before the n00bs arrived. They merely acted as an additional reason to leave the fandom.

And I'VE stated, that that was the only point I was talking about in the first place. Any other points regarding that I agree with you on. So basically I wasn't debating you on the argument wholehand, I was debating that particular point in general.

Ninendo didn't make the game, Rare did. But that doesn't absolve Nintendo. DP was very near complete when Nintendo came in and made them change-up the project. This isn't a case of "Nintendo doing what they could," but rather a case of "Nintendo doing what they shouldn't."

Actually it was.

Dude you and Mister K know Starfox history better than anyone I know, so you should know that Nintendo was on time. They went to Rare and butted in on their project because they hadn't even started on a Starfox game yet. Doing this allowed them to have a Starfox title out on time, and not lose any money. If they delayed the game, they would have lost money, therefore there being a possibility of the Starfox series getting dropped. 

Attractive female in skimpy clothing. Do the math.

Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, it had the effect I described.

And once again you put words in my mouth with "Nintendo's Fault." Read this sentence again:

"I said nothing about her figure or whether or not it was "right" for Rare to have designer her clothing that way."

If you don't blame Nintendo/Rare for that good.

Basically though where I was ORIGNALLY going with this is how the Adventures and the Adventures fans where shunned for this. Sure it's sick and perverted and I'm against to be honest, but people have an opinion. And even though Krystal isn't dressed to be a "Yiff slut" we have to take things we hear with a little grain of salt, because if we flame and yell and hate, what happens? Well the Flame war answered that one.

Not only that but not all Adventures fans liked Adventures just because (Or even for) Krystal. A lot of people liked the game in general. But because of the shunning and the people getting more upset than they should have been, people are labeled that way. it's just like furries. A lot of furries don't like yiff. But they're labeled that way because of the sick yiff comunity.

Ah, but if Nintendo hadn't forced Rare to change DP, then they wouldn't have come. But like I said repeatedly: The idiots are not the reason the community fractured. They were part of it, but they weren't the root cause.

Who's to say if they had done some OTHER Starfox game, that we wouldn't have some sick yiff fans coming in drooling over some other character? Or perhaps Katt Munroe, if she was given some sort of lead roll?

First you say you're not blaming the game, and then I turn around and you are. You just don't get it do you? We live in a world filled with SICK PERVERTED PEOPLE. It didn't matter if Adventures was made or any other game, people will ALWAYS find a way.

But since you say that's not the root cause, I'm going to be a good sport and put it aside. But you shouldn't blame me for debating you on that point in the first place, since it's the one that doesn't make sense.

SF64 VS mode had an on-foot mode that you could unlock.

That wasn't the core gaming element in the story mode. As a matter of fact you had to go through hell to unlock the thing. XD Good times.....

You're still confusing the addition of new elements with a genre-shift. Apples to oranges, if you will.

There was a genre shift in the Zelda series, and it's called Link's Crossbow Training. But it was never advertised as a full game, but rather an interactive tech-demo for the Wii Zapper.

Adding new gameplay elements is not the same thing, and is in fact necessary to keep a series from getting stale. But to equate more of the adventure being in the overworld with taking a space fighter pilot and plopping him onto a primitive planet with a magic stick is a bit much.

SF64 -> SFAs = Adding gameplay elements

SF64 -> SFAd = Genre Shift

So to be honest, you're not talking about the Genre shift. You're talking about settings. That Fox didn't have his Blaster, Landmaster ect. Not only I agree with this but it's actually one of the flaws I see in Adventures, especially since Fox was shown to have a blaster in one of the older SF DP trailers.

Let's Review:

* Spell Stones

* Magic Staff Crystals

* Gatekeepers

* Krazoa Spirits

* Multiple mentions of the planet's core having an overabundance of "magical energy"

* Bafomdads

Only things missing were faeries.

Right, Because we see so much of Bafomdads and Spellstones in other Magical Dungeon Adventure games. *Rolls eyes*

Even though Starfox Ad had those items in the game, it also had Sci-fi elements. There was Fox's wrist watch. The dino-translator device. Zoom goggles, The Sharpclaw disguise Fuel Cells, The Arwing. These were elements not seen in most "MAGICAL" dungeon adventure. Not to mention in most MDA's the hero can cast spells, and use other things of an obvious magical nature. Starfox Ad had none of these elements previously mentioned and since it comes from a Sci-fi theme in the first place, doesn't make sense why someone would try to label it as a "Magical Dungeon Adventure". 

That's what landmasters and blasters are for. Not magic sticks.

Agreed. Although all missions do not require weapons. Pepper obviously didn't want the planet turning into a warszone, so understandably you can see why Fox was asked to leave his blaster.

Ah, but Samus' gunship isn't out of character for the Metroid series. You said it yourself: " I mean, she's a bounty hunter. She DOES fly in space. It makes a little sense that she would have to do such a thing at least ONCE in a while."

That's a little different than abandoning all technology which would have made Fox's mission go a lot smoother.

Um excuse me....WHAT technology did he abandon? He flies down in a freakin space air plane just to get on the planet!

It's not the fact that Fox is on the ground that is nonsensical. It is that he is carrying around a freaking magic stick instead of a blaster and riding dinosaurs instead of his Landmaster.

Agreed.

Here is a good definition of a platformer: "The platform game (or platformer) is a video game genre characterized by jumping to and from suspended platforms or over obstacles (jumping puzzles). It must be possible to control these jumps and to fall from platforms or miss jumps."

It says nothing about a linear path to the goal. Yes, completing a task to continue on is reminiscent of an adventure game, but this is merely the addition of gameplay elements, NOT a genre shift. SMG still fits the definition above.

True that is the definition of how the game is played. But in mostly all platformers, you MUST reach the end of the goal to complete  the level. Mario really doesn't do this anymore, and even if he didn't I don't see much platform action. No more than what Link and Samus go through and just because they jump a few holes doesn't qualify their games as platformers.

Forget about the SFAd fans for a moment. We all know how they feel. They're still with us. I'm talking about those who left the fandom in 2001-2003. In 2001 when SFAd was announced, there was a collective WTF?! moment. Then there was a "Why the hell are they doing this?" And finally "Well, if this is where Star Fox is going, count me out." Are you saying that all of the space shooter fans who aren't adventure fans can't voice their opinions of their favorite shooter becomes an adventure?

All of this was BEFORE the game came out and the morons came in. Once they came, those that were hanging on by a thread let go.

On top of that, you need to understand the mindset of the state of the series. At that time there was serious doubt that there would be another Star Fox game.

Why?

Shigeru Miyamoto.

He said this in a Nintendo Power interview in 1997: "I'm not so attached to the Star Fox theme." The context was a little ambiguous, but the general consensus of the community at the time was "Miyamoto doesn't care about Star Fox."

Now take this mindset, and look at SFAd and you can see why the fans were so disgusted. This was the proof of Miyamoto's statements.

It is these things that are why I am making the point about you not being there.

I explained this above. I wasn't talking about the fall in general, I was talking about how you blamed Adventures for the other aspect. Don't blame people for walking out...hey they do what they gotta do.

That's not what I meant. I meant a Star Fox adventure game planned from the start to be a Star Fox game and given a reasonable development cycle.

Last time I'm saying this because I know everyone should know this by now:

IT COULDN'T BE DONE FOR ADVENTURES.

Do we wish they did it? Hell yeah! But no, we know it was beyond their doing and because of the time constraints THEY COULDN'T START A STAFOX GAME FROM SCRATCH.

Once again, you assume that this whole situation revolves around stupid people. But I can see why. It's easier to say "you're overreacting to morons" than it is to justify being silent on complete genre changes to your favorite game series. I'm not going to repeat all the points again, but read that explanation a few paragraphs up again to make sure you understand where the older fans are coming from before telling us to STFU.

Explained this also couple of points up.

Btw never told anyone to to STFU, now you're putting words in MY MOUTH.

Because you are ignoring my central points. You insist on sticking with this "idiots" meme, when at least once in each of my posts that the idiots were only part of the problem.

This is seemingly because you want to explain the whole situation as a whole. You just don't understand: I'm not DEBATING the situation as a WHOLE, I was debating the particular point that was talked about far above.

Read it again, and this time read the whole thing:

"I'm not trying to control anyone, and I would have this discussion with you even if I weren't an admin. That means nothing to this debate."

Dude...in your EXACT sentence, YOU said: I would have this discussion with you even if I WEREN'T an Admin. Now this implies that because you're an ADMIN you MUST talk to me about this, because you said EVEN IF YOU WEREN'T.

Now what really made me note this is because I never even MENTIONED about your being an admin, and somehow you singly brought this up with the other fact "I'm not trying to control anyone."

I dunno if you where thinking of something else at the time or what but this really had nothing to do with anything. I MYSELF had stated  that I was not trying to control anyone, but your statement just came outta nowhere.

EDIT: And DAMNIT Julius! You screwed up my double post moment! XDDDD

[Guest FoXXX]

Metal Bikini? 

Maybe it's a chastity belt, at least the bottom part of it, anyway!    (j/k)

And the majority of Starfox games still feel like Starfox.

^ this.

Whether you like Old School/Classic Star Fox, The one for the Cube, or the Portable...one thing's for sure, we can't let our differing preferences, or conflicting ideas of plausibility turn into forum flamewars.

The Nitty Gritty of it is, we're all Star Fox fans, or we wouldn't be here at forums like this if we weren't.  We just happen to be different kinds of fans, but our core interest is the Star Fox game(s) and and the main characters of it/them.

Well said :)

[Guest Julius Quasar]

EDIT: And DAMNIT Julius! You screwed up my double post moment! XDDDD

Sorry!  :nervous:

[Kursed]

Once again, you assume that this whole situation revolves around stupid people. But I can see why. It's easier to say "you're overreacting to morons" than it is to justify being silent on complete genre changes to your favorite game series. I'm not going to repeat all the points again, but read that explanation a few paragraphs up again to make sure you understand where the older fans are coming from before telling us to STFU.

I do not think that acronym was necessary.  and personnly judging by all I've read here Your are overeacting to morons among other things instead of complaining about the stupid yiff. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!! All I've seen from you Dz is complaining about the idoits that do the Yiff here  in front of people who hate it too. well instead of complaing in front of us here. Complain to them ,please?

It's not the fact that Fox is on the ground that is nonsensical. It is that he is carrying around a freaking magic stick instead of a blaster and riding dinosaurs instead of his Landmaster.

I don't mean to be a headache here ,but did you even play the game Fox specificakly ask pepper "BUT WHY  COULDN'T"T I BRING MY BLASTER?" oh and another thing so you don't think Fox is proficient with a  staff you think he's always going to have his blaster avalible to him I mean  for one:Fox needs to fix the arwings  and stuff perhaps some blasters are damaged too? and two: one word Contract he's a mercenary and Mercenaries sign a contracts to work so this contract may have included no weapons other than the ones mouted on your ship... therefore if he had violated this agreement No pay and he'd be one heck of a loser. (Besides saving a good looking girl who can fight is a good bonus for a  guy surrounded by guys most of the time (Hence the poster on the wall.)