Ad Hominem

[Sabre]

My logical and sceptical viewpoint put's me at odds with many emotional, stuck in their ways idiots. As a result, I frequently get the Hilter or Ad Hominem card played against me.

The last few days though, my arguments against the common grain have been dismissed as trolling.

Don't like Penny Arcade? Troll

Think startrek online could have been a single player game? Troll

Think Bioshock 2 Multiplayer is a really bad idea? Troll

and so on.

Any one else get this?

[Vy'drach]

Can't say that I have that I can remember, but I've seen some of your posts and the only thing is that you can be a bit blunt at times, which there's nothing wrong with, I personally respect that about people, but some people don't like to have an opinion directly coincide with theirs, and I don't see how having a different viewpoint could be considered trolling. I try to learn everyone's opinion or viewpoint on things because while I won't necessarily agree with it, its handy and sometimes helpful to know it.

I wouldn't worry about it though Sabre, people just need to remember the old saying, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and most of them stink."

[Mr. Krystal]

My logical and sceptical viewpoint put's me at odds with many emotional, stuck in their ways idiots. As a result, I frequently get the Hilter or Ad Hominem card played against me.

Unless the people are ACTUALLY jerks, they typically don't use ad hominem purely because you disagree with them, but based on your method of argument. I'm sure you are aware that you're not the most... gentle of debaters. They are not responding to the fact that you disagree with them, but to your method of argument. Everyone, in massive numbers, believe things that they can't back up with a fully solid foundation. That's just the nature of how much stuff we think we know. And it works for most people, most of the time. Admitting you're wrong is hard enough to do without someone being ungracious about it.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

My logical and sceptical viewpoint put's me at odds with many emotional, stuck in their ways idiots. As a result, I frequently get the Hilter or Ad Hominem card played against me.

The last few days though, my arguments against the common grain have been dismissed as trolling.

Don't like Penny Arcade? Troll

Think startrek online could have been a single player game? Troll

Think Bioshock 2 Multiplayer is a really bad idea? Troll

and so on.

Any one else get this?

I've gotten that a lot.

At one website, I was demonized just because I said I opposed gay marriage.

I deleted my account at that web community.

Unless the people are ACTUALLY jerks, they typically don't use ad hominem purely because you disagree with them, but based on your method of argument. I'm sure you are aware that you're not the most... gentle of debaters. They are not responding to the fact that you disagree with them, but to your method of argument. Everyone, in massive numbers, believe things that they can't back up with a fully solid foundation. That's just the nature of how much stuff we think we know. And it works for most people, most of the time. Admitting you're wrong is hard enough to do without someone being ungracious about it.

*EDIT*

Agreed.  I presented my argument with ambiguous cogent facts, in a diplomatic manner, and yet I still got castigated for it.  Whenever I was wrong, and I admitted to being wrong, even apologized sometimes, I still got harassed for it, I'd still hear "Yeah!  In your face!" by the same people who, if you poked a hole in their logic, they'd report you for abuse, or accuse you of being an a******

[Mr. Krystal]

Agreed.  I presented my argument with ambiguous facts, and yet I still got castigated for it.

Actually... that's not what I said. I was basically saying it could be YOUR fault they're castrating you. Not because you have different opinions, but because you may be indignant or strong-willed about them.

As with all argument, it is best to try and write a criticizing response to your own thoughts, before letting others do it to you. Then you're prepared for the challenges that will be made, and you've got the resources to back it up. Also identifies weaknesses in your argument.

[DZComposer]

When dealing with fanboys, you can get called a troll for disagreeing with them.

I've seen it happen a lot, even when you don't argue forcefully. Yes, arguing forcefully can cause an overly-defensive ad hominem attack, but attachment to the issue can, too.

Emotional attachment to an issue easily leads to ad hominem argument, straw man argument, or a straw man/ad hominem combo.

I've seen this happen

[Kursed]

When dealing with fanboys, you can get called a troll for disagreeing with them.

I've seen it happen a lot, even when you don't argue forcefully. Yes, arguing forcefully can cause an overly-defensive ad hominem attack, but attachment to the issue can, too.

Emotional attachment to an issue easily leads to ad hominem argument, straw man argument, or a straw man/ad hominem combo.

I've seen this happen

Yeeeah that was a reaallly good idea to post that Dz...

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Actually... that's not what I said. I was basically saying it could be YOUR fault they're castrating you. Not because you have different opinions, but because you may be indignant or strong-willed about them.

God damn it,  I guess Carson66 was/is right.  I really am "a loser who's too stupid to understand what everybody else says",  and that I "...always miss the point...". 

*EDIT* sorry, I'm having a really bad day

Hell, I can't even make a good post or argument anymore. 

[Mr. Krystal]

God damn it,  I guess Carson66 was/is right.  I really am "a loser who's too stupid to understand what everybody else says",  and that I "...always miss the point...". 

Hell, I can't even make a good post or argument anymore. 

Easy there. No need to attack yourself. Everyone makes mistakes. Don't give up.

[Sabre]

Permission to straighten him out with a stick sir!

Seriously though. If you are threatening to kill yourself over one forum post, you really need to look at what your doing. It makes you sound like an attention grabbing emo.

Defend your possition, clarfy, or in this case, say whoops and move on. Maybe he should have worded it better, maybe you didn't read it properly, who knows, or cares?

Best real world example happened to me on a forum you can't edit posts on. I said something like

"We won't need locks if there burgers."

Instead of what I was ment to say was

"And we wouldn't need locks if there were no burglers."

But in sshort, it's a forum about games, it's not a bg deal.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Easy there. No need to attack yourself. Everyone makes mistakes. Don't give up.

Sorry Mr. K, I was just having a REALLY bad day.  Worst day I'd had in a while.

Permission to straighten him out with a stick sir!

Seriously though. If you are threatening to kill yourself over one forum post, you really need to look at what your doing. It makes you sound like an attention grabbing emo.

Sabre, you're not exactly a model citizen here yourself, so just STFU!

...and by the way, you know nothing of emos, they're not a bunch of suicidal attention seekers. That's a stereotype spread by ignorant pompous twits like you.

Back OT,

The concept of Ad Hominem argument has one of its traits where "people who live in a glass house shouldn't throw stones", but they do (I myself have been guilty of pulling that crap...)

[Vy'drach]

Calm down man, no need to get worked up over something that someone over the internet thinks or says about you, they have little relevancy to you and should just be ignored if you don't like what they say.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Calm down man, no need to get worked up over something that someone over the internet thinks or says about you, they have little relevancy to you and should just be ignored if you don't like what they say.

Yeah, but Sabre is one of those people I'm talking about in regards to the glass house/throwing stones, he insults others, yet he's in no position to dish out anything.

It's one thing to badmouth a game or movie, but when you insult/attack other people, when you yourself aren't exactly a "model citizen", you've gone too far.

[Vy'drach]

Thing is though, what does it matter one way or another, his opinions and actions shouldn't matter much to you since they have no power over what you do or who you are.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Thing is though, what does it matter one way or another, his opinions and actions shouldn't matter much to you since they have no power over what you do or who you are.

I know, but it's irritating.  Sabre's a hypocrite in a lot of the things he says.  If anyone talked to YOU like that over the internet, don't you think it's at least smart to stand up for yourself?  I've been told "defend your opinion" online by lots of my friends, and that's what I'm gonna do.  Even if it gets me in trouble.

[Vy'drach]

I tend to think its just not worth the effort most of the time, why divert my time and attention to things like that, its not entertaining, most of the time anyway, and just leads to more trouble usually, let them think what they think, it doesn't matter, it never mattered.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I tend to think its just not worth the effort most of the time, why divert my time and attention to things like that, its not entertaining, most of the time anyway, and just leads to more trouble usually, let them think what they think, it doesn't matter, it never mattered.

What I'm saying is, you have to stand up for yourself, or make an effort to.  That's life, online and reality.

I'm certainly not going to let someone who posts something like THIS:

http://forums.starfox-online.net/index.php?topic=4584.0

tell me off...not without sticking up for myself. 

Sabre needs reminding that he shouldn't throw stones, not with that glass house of a thread he started...

his insult towards me was like an person being made fun of for not parking his car perfectly straight, by someone who is just on a bicycle, with no driver's license

[Vy'drach]

So someone gets overzealous and self-righteous, let em, as I understand it, which, if I am wrong, please let me know, things like that are what mods are for, which they took upon themselves when they accepted the position to keep people from causing problems and keep the forum enjoyable for the largest majority they can. When you get upset, Julius, it causes things in your body that can lead to health issues and a shorter life span, this one event likely won't do much, but if several events like these happen, it can build up, and the thing is, why is someone who lives thousands of miles away that you've never met important enough to you to allow that to happen to your body, I recommend just ignoring them, let them rant and rave until their blue in the face, and it usually strikes them more when it causes no reaction, or, if what they do is bad enough, alert the mods and they will try to resolve the situation in the way that they see as causing the least problems with the forum, rather than it becoming full fledged open war in text that lands you in trouble too over something as insignificant as someone else being stupid.

And not telling you what to do, just offering my own stance on said matter.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I'm not "upset", bud, if I were upset, I would've lashed out at you like an ***hole. 

I agree with you, for the most part, but I still think that they need to be beaten back when they overstep their bounds.  If you don't tell that jerk in the movie theater to shut up and get off his cell phone, then he'll just keep talking and ruin the movie.  That's my opinion. 

but thanks tho.

Back OT, there's a difference between  trolling, and using ad hominem.

Trolling means posting obscene or horrible images, obscene text documents or linking to sites containing that stuff, or saying things that are outrageously nasty, like "You should kill yourself" or "People like you are the reason RU6-84 was invented".

Ad Hominem arguing is more like insulting others, be it their arguments, works, art, etc.  It's also criticizing in an antagonistic way, like "Your drawing sucks".

[Sabre]

Ah. At this point I should try to exlain myself, clarify or defend, but that's not my strong suit, so I'll be quite.

Back OT

Ad Hominem arguing is more like insulting others, be it their arguments, works, art, etc.  It's also criticizing in an antagonistic way, like "Your drawing sucks".

No.

Ad Hominem is the idea that someones wrong because of some negative trait or simply name calling. For example, to use the abortion issue from earlier.

"I believe in pro choice."

"But we can't take your opinion because your fat."

or

"But we can't take your opinion because your stipud."

It's not a logical way to argue.

However, recently it seems the new way to 'win' an argument that used to be reserved for the hitler card or the cewbacca defence, is now Ad Hominem argument but you call them a troll because if they attempt to defend, they seem more likely to be trolling. It's like the olden times witch hunts.

[ThePointingMan]

Is it just me or is this exactly what Sabre is talking about...

Like, lately a lot of Sabre's posts have been stuff about this kind of stuff, and then wherever it is weak, or wherever someone can yell at it in someway, someone does...

Also I'm as lazy as a sf4 tourney player, so i did not read everything that's happening, but i got the main idea, I think.

Sabre is not completely innocent, cause like some of your wording is kind of harsh, but then some people need to learn to not care.

I think Sabre has some of the troubles I have when I make posts sometimes, no matter how nice you mean it, no one catches what your trying to say, rather they focus on what you think is just "whatever" but for some reason makes other people super angry.

(Also, I just found some fricken awesome riff on ma synthesizer!)

I think the basic problem is people like to get mad, (Myself included, I enjoy fighting, but not being angry while fighting, I like friendly fights) no fingers pointed at anyone, and not just here on the interweb either.

(Also that riff is even awesomer now, cause i can like break it up an do funky stuff)

I really do have to agree with a lot of stuff Sabre said though, and stuff other people said...

That's a stereotype spread by ignorant pompous twits like you.

That made me snicker.

I've been told "defend your opinion" online by lots of my friends, and that's what I'm gonna do.  Even if it gets me in trouble.

It is good to defend your opinion, just while doing it, respect the opposing opinion, try and figure out where they are coming from when they say it, and then keep in mind that what you say in your opinion effects how the other person will reply, if you sound like your picking a fight, then chances are they are gonna take your fight and reply in a foul way, if you respect their opinion while explaining why you think your opinion is better, they will probably do the same.

AGAIN, NO PSYCHIATRIST HERE!!! Just given some input, I really have no idea, just taking a wack at the pinata.

[Mr. Krystal]

Well this topic went downhill in a hurry. Subject matter AND behavior are the reason I now lock this topic. All concerned should take a chill pill.