The orginazation of the Lylat System...

[Zicka]

There shouldn't be debate. What's canon is canon.

Name another source that calls Solar a star. I mentioned several, including an in-game source (which should trump any document), as calling it a planet.

I used to think it was a star myself, until I read everything else.

Hah, you'd have a field day on any star trek forum, almost every other star trek episode has conflicting data from all the technobabble they make the actors splurt out.

My point is, in several cases in movies or videogames, what is said or stated conflicts what is shown. What am I to believe? The visual evidence that the audience and characters see? Or a mistranslation. Solar looks and behaves like a star in every way, and posesses no qualities of a planet what so ever. ie: It's a Star

Keyword: melted. If it was melted, it wouldn't become a rock, it would become part of the magma. Once again, the rings were put there for gameplay purposes only, not because of anything else. Plus, your arguement could work for both star Solar and planet Solar, so what's the point of arguing?

I never said anything about being melted all the way. It's possible that chunks of cornerian military-grade alloy still survived, in an albeit magled state.

And you counter your own argument. If they were just "rocks", they would have melted away.

[Guest FoXXX]

I just assume Miyamoto was a lazy bastard and didnt have time to draw a sun and orbit paths and blah blah blah

If it wasn't for him and somebody else (Can't remember their name) we wouldn't have SF :(

[Guest Matt macdowel]

If it wasn't for him and somebody else (Can't remember their name) we wouldn't have SF

Takaya Imamura

is that who you are thinking of?

[Guest FoXXX]

Takaya Imamura

is that who you are thinking of?

I think so

[Guest Matt macdowel]

I think so

ok i just looked him up to, you might also be thinking of dylan since alot of people credit him of making the game but he only help make it!

[Guest FoXXX]

ok i just looked him up to, you might also be thinking of dylan since alot of people credit him of making the game but he only help make it!

Dylan Cuthbert is partially responsible for SFC...

[CR4CK3RW0LF]

@Kalikimaka, good, your evil has been sealed within the triforce. never to be bothered by this topic again!

(dont take it seriously, i wanted to stop it before it started, i was just being silly, welcome to the topic XD)

as for your input, canon is used to discern what has been established and what hasnt. like if someone went off and decided that andross was fox's father...

now not only would that be Cliche, but it conflicts with the populace already knowing that james is fox's father... or IS HE??? DUNDUNDUNDUUHHHH!!

NOOO, IT CANT BE!!! THATS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

SEARCH YOUR FEELINGS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!!

anyway, back on topic. Science fiction depends on canon as much as it depends on science. the combination of the two plus a little of your own imagination is really what makes a good Fan-fic, or at least in my opinion...

[Guest FoXXX]

@Kalikimaka, good, your evil has been sealed within the triforce. never to be bothered by this topic again!

(dont take it seriously, i wanted to stop it before it started, i was just being silly, welcome to the topic XD)

as for your input, canon is used to discern what has been established and what hasnt. like if someone went off and decided that andross was fox's father...

now not only would that be Cliche, but it conflicts with the populace already knowing that james is fox's father... or IS HE??? DUNDUNDUNDUUHHHH!!

NOOO, IT CANT BE!!! THATS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

SEARCH YOUR FEELINGS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!!

anyway, back on topic. Science fiction depends on canon as much as it depends on science. the combination of the two plus a little of your own imagination is really what makes a good Fan-fic, or at least in my opinion...

Andross + ? = Fox

Disgusting lol

[CR4CK3RW0LF]

MOMMAA!!!

lol andross goes back in time and succeeds in killing james and marries fox's mother, Vixy!

let the hilarity and absurdness unfold XD, but please try to keep on topic...

@draco, about a few post's back, yes i was talking about the unpolluted new venom... i like the sound of the planet being in turmoil over Dash's rule, which seems to me like hes a future space Hitler monkey XD

[Thomas Draco]

@ Zicka: Yes, that may work. But it could work on both star Solar and planet Solar.

@ CR4CK3DWOLF: Yes, an Andross Mk. 2 if you can say it.

@ Everybody: Until we get offical word on this issue, it's all just speculation and hypotheises. CR4CK3DWOLF, I say just go along with your story which ever way you want.

Also, once I get my PC up and running again, I'll use Celestia (a open source 3D planetarium software) to make my model of the Lylat System.

[CR4CK3RW0LF]

not really sure what you mean by an Andross Mk. 2..... ive noticed your reply on the Character Design contest post so i know your a big gundam fan... of course thats just an assumption so correct me if im wrong..

never really liked the gundam series... i guess ive never really watched any good episodes. btw just call me cracker XD

the hardest part about deciding if solar is a star or not, is that as far as a plot goes, it can really develop either way ill create a poll and leave it to a vote.. in my opinion it would work so much better if it were a star... im going to google that Celestia program now..  :D

[Thomas Draco]

not really sure what you mean by an Andross Mk. 2..... ive noticed your reply on the Character Design contest post so i know your a big gundam fan... of course thats just an assumption so correct me if im wrong..

never really liked the gundam series... i guess ive never really watched any good episodes. btw just call me cracker XD

the hardest part about deciding if solar is a star or not, is that as far as a plot goes, it can really develop either way ill create a poll and leave it to a vote.. in my opinion it would work so much better if it were a star... im going to google that Celestia program now.. 

Andross >Mark< 2 = Basically the 2nd version of Andross.

Also, yes, I'm a Gundam fan.

Also, I want to make a few more arguements about Solar's position.

Facts we know about Solar:

Red-Orange

9000 Degree (F or C is unknown) Temp.

Waves and rocks appear on surface

Stars:

Color depends of temp, blue being the hottest and brown-red being the coolest.

Don't have waves or rocks on the surface (We're talking over 10000 degrees F, any metal would melt no matter what.)

Now, we know Solar is red-orange at 9000 degrees. If it was a star at 9000 degrees F, that star would be an M-class star, which would be insuffcient in heating an entire life-bearning system. If it's 9000 degrees C, it would be A-class star, which is a good tempureture, but the color for these stars are white, not red-orange, which is pretty good evidence that Solar is only a planet.

Oh and yes, Celestia is a good program, please check it out.

[Fira-Astrali]

Facts we know about Solar:

Red-Orange

9000 Degree (F or C is unknown) Temp.

Waves and rocks appear on surface

Since the heights and weights of the characters are measured in metres and kilograms whenever i see them, I would assume that the degrees would be measured in C

[Guest FoXXX]

Since the heights and weights of the characters are measured in metres and kilograms whenever i see them, I would assume that the degrees would be measured in C

what 9000c? :P

[Thomas Draco]

Since the heights and weights of the characters are measured in metres and kilograms whenever i see them, I would assume that the degrees would be measured in C

Even then at 9000 degrees C, Solar wouldn't fit the characterisitics of a star at that tempurture.

Also, it says the Arwing can take that much, not the actual temp of the planet, but I do recall from reading the SF 64 manga that it was around 13000 degrees C, which still doesn't match Solar's color.

[CR4CK3RW0LF]

*clap, clap, clap!*

well folks, this is why i started this topic! for folks like this man @draco, im pretty sure youve just won the argument...

evidence points towards planet. the manuals state it, Science itself states it, Solar is indeed a planet..

however, this still leaves us without a sun for our system

it also officially makes the system in starfox 64 scientifically impossible, of course it was built like that for the sake of gameplay, but i digress..

not to rush or anything, but shall we finally move on from solar? discussion about the realms of fantasy can still go on about solar (IE the Solar/thermal plant..) but i believe the discussion on solar's Star/planet debate has been concluded...

so now what? for the star i mean... i think it might just be a good idea and just create a star, and of course name it Lylat as Kursed said near this topics origin. i did a bit of searching in my mind and i actually did find evidence of our own sun being named Sol at some point, since the english dictionary uses it as both a noun and an adjective, im sure scientists simply named it sol for the sake of giving it a name.. so indeed she was right and i was misinformed. however the name could still be up for debate, i like the idea of shortening it, say Lyla or something, idk if thats a good name...

[Zicka]

*clap, clap, clap!*

well folks, this is why i started this topic! for folks like this man @draco, im pretty sure youve just won the argument...

evidence points towards planet. the manuals state it, Science itself states it, Solar is indeed a planet..

however, this still leaves us without a sun for our system

it also officially makes the system in starfox 64 scientifically impossible, of course it was built like that for the sake of gameplay, but i digress..

Wow, Let's not take any giant leaps of logic here. His argument is that the characteristics of Solar being a star are conflicting, at 9000 c, Solar would be too hot for it's color, at 9000 degrees f, it would put out too little heat to support the system.

So, It's either spot on but a bit too cold, or It's colors are messed up, and we are somehow supposed to believe that this obviously points it towards being a planet?

What?

It's already esablished that the temperatures stated put it well out of range of being a simple planet covered in lava, Our earth's innermost core barely breaks 5,500 k.

[Matrilwood]

When I first saw the Lylat system my reaction was "My god, what is this mess?!?!"

There seems to be no sun, 3 nebula which in real life are a few thousand light-years long. And 2 satellites the size of planets. And to top it all off, there is no way a solar system could be formed like that, especially without a sun. I assumed that green thing was supposed to be a "sun".

Actually it could be a sun. Temperature of suns is in Kelvin. 0 Kelvin is minimum possible temperature (no heat, because cold is really just the absence of heat). So 9000K would make Solus a class A planet. And the color could be because its a variable star. Variable stars have periodic or random changes in luminosity because of intrinsic or extrinsic properties. Don't ask me what that means, because I don't know. To tell you the truth I just copy-past that sentence from Wikipedia. Although if its a variable star, from what I can gather it means its a dieing star.

[DZComposer]

Well, if we're going to talk temperature of Solar as if it were a star, the SF64 guide says that it the surface temperature is greater than 3500 Kelvin.

3500 K is around 3200 C or 5800 F (I did lots of rounding here)

For more obscure scales, it is 6300 Rankine, 4700 Delisle, 1000 Newton Degrees, 2600 Reaumur, or 1700 Romer. Once again, I rounded the crap out of them.

There are some obvious problems with the temperatures. 3500 K is not near 8000 in any scale.

It is a safe assumption that the 8000 isn't Kelvin, as kelvin isn't "degrees kelvin" it is kelvins, like meters or liters. More likely it is Celsius, but it could be Fahrenheit. I would doubt they'd use one of those obscure scales I mentioned earlier.

Well, what does this mean, you ask?

Firstly, the game blows-up the SF64 Guide's surface temperature claim, as Slippy has a voice clip that states that he measured a temperature of 8000. Soooo.... That 3500 Kelvins seems a little cool compared to what the game says, as 3500 K isn't even close to 8000 degrees in any scale.

There is a big problem with this: At surface temp of 8000 C (~8200 K), a star would burn light blue in color, NOT red.

Because Game Canon > Documentation Canon, Solar's surface temperature us at least 8000 "degrees."

Being a planet has it's own temperature issues:

Magma temperatures are less than 2000 C.  (2300 K, 3600F)

I bring all this up to say this: The temperatures are so out of whack for every explanation, that they are NOT good evidence in the "Star/planet" debate.

The best solution to this question is to use the hierarchy of canon, which has Solar being called a planet in-game. Since in-game is the highest order of canon, Solar is a planet.

[Asper Sarnoff]

It's not only the temperatures that are wack in the SF universe. Trying to find logic in the mess of contradicting information we've assembled is close to impossible.

And since there is evidence to support absolutely every claim one can come with, I could for example say Solar was made of cheese, and probably find evidence to support that claim, the only way we will come to a conclusion is when people get bored, leave, and the one left standing can freely decide what is canon and what is not.

May I suggest we hold a poll where the members can vote on Solar being a sun or a planet?

[Guest FoXXX]

It's not only the temperatures that are wack in the SF universe. Trying to find logic in the mess of contradicting information we've assembled is close to impossible.

And since there is evidence to support absolutely every claim one can come with, I could for example say Solar was made of cheese, and probably find evidence to support that claim, the only way we will come to a conclusion is when people get bored, leave, and the one left standing can freely decide what is canon and what is not.

May I suggest we hold a poll where the members can vote on Solar being a sun or a planet?

I vote planet :P

[CR4CK3RW0LF]

sigh... AND THE DEBATE CONTINUES!! oh well, i was pretty sure draco had something there

but as DZ has pointed out, which btw WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GET ALL THOSE MEASUREMENTS?? everything is as confusing as when we began.. so now it has been left up to a poll.

i think i will let it last for about a week to let everyone get a chance to vote.. but seriously guys, this topic could be SO MUCH MORE!!

then again, i guess we really have to establish a star before anything else.. i think ill  make that part of the poll as well..

[Fira-Astrali]

if you want to talk about Solar's colour, the developers could have disregarded the correct blue colour for Solar's temp (if it were a star) in the name of a more stereotypical and easily idenitfiable red colour. This has happened in media all the time. I think Asper is right, there are compelling arguments for both.

CRAP! I accidentally voted planet. know one of those is supposed to be star!

[Zicka]

It's called "Solar" for a reason. :V

Mail this junk to Nasa and ask them what they would classify Solar as. I bet they would indulge.

[Thomas Draco]

It's already esablished that the temperatures stated put it well out of range of being a simple planet covered in lava' date=' Our earth's innermost core barely breaks 5,500 k.[/quote']

5000 kelvin (thermodynamic temp) = 8 540.33 degrees Fahrenheit, which nearly matches Solar's temp in F. So a planet orbiting a star, like the one seen in Star Fox 2, a white star,  between .1 AU and .5 (around Mercury's distance to the Sun), would probably be baked to that temp.

Okay, first off Bolse was never inclined to be the size of a planet. They just increased its size on the map in order to show it was there.

Venom was never supposed to be a star, as it's a solid body, and it's green-yellow, a color never found in any star.

If Solar's temp was in Kelvin (>9000 K), then yes, the temp would match the temps of A-class stars. But even then, the color of Solar wouldn't match that, and the size compared to the rest of the planets in Lylat. As for variable stars, there are many type of variable stars, but none of them to my knowledge change the color of their spectra, as their temp stays the same.

But then...

This peice of good evidence blows up everything. But, yes, hierarchy of canon is the only other option, so I voted planet.

Well it shows we're deicated fans of Star Fox if we're treating this seriously.

In Lylat, Solar could mean something else. Also, the name could be from Near-Solar (Star) Planet.

Well, is SF 2 they had a  white-blue star which I think is Lylat's star. See attachment.

[Pruned to save disk space]