what you DON'T want to see in a starfox game

[Thu'um]

your right, i was thinking the same thing when i posted that . no not like she was in command

[Dermot]

Sometimes I wonder if I'd much rather see Star Fox as a series rebooted in 1993 style (and including their exile on Papetoon, and the characters Fara and Vixy, and higher-pitched longer-snouted Peppy, lower-pitched necklaced Slippy, General Pepper with sunglasses, and James as a dimensionally-stranded space whale), but some of the things included since the 1997 reboot, including the planets Katina, Fichina, Aquas, Zoness and Solar, and the characters Bill, Katt, the Hot Rodders, Star Wolf, Beltino, Panther, Lucy, Amanda and Dash. 

See, I never liked Star Fox 64 as a game, but I had little problem with most of its universe/character additions.  I was so unhappy when it came out. Star Fox 64 (and not Star Fox Adventures later, though it didn't help) is the #1 reason I originally became inactive in the fandom - even after playing it more and more, I still find it utterly uninteresting in terms of gameplay experience.

[Robert Monroe]

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Sometimes I wonder if I'd much rather see Star Fox as a series rebooted in 1993 style (and including their exile on Papetoon, and the characters Fara and Vixy, and higher-pitched longer-snouted Peppy, lower-pitched necklaced Slippy, General Pepper with sunglasses, and James as a dimensionally-stranded space whale), but some of the things included since the 1997 reboot, including the planets Katina, Fichina, Aquas, Zoness and Solar, and the characters Bill, Katt, the Hot Rodders, Star Wolf, Beltino, Panther, Lucy, Amanda and Dash. 

See, I never liked Star Fox 64 as a game, but I had little problem with most of its universe/character additions.  I was so unhappy when it came out. Star Fox 64 (and not Star Fox Adventures later, though it didn't help) is the #1 reason I originally became inactive in the fandom.

What the HELL can you have wrong with SF64? The SNES game is balls compared to it, and I LOVE the SNES game.

[Dermot]

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What the HELL can you have wrong with SF64? The SNES game is balls compared to it, and I LOVE the SNES game.

I never liked Star Fox 64.  I tried.  I couldn't warm up to it.  The SNES game is still my favorite.  I'm a Star Fox SNESser.

[Dermot]

Well, what was wrong with Star Fox 64?

I didn't like that they rebooted the story.  The 1993-1995 story was extremely influential on my teenage imagination.  The reboot shook that badly.

I didn't like the music.  This is probably my single worst complaint.  I love the music of Star Fox and Star Fox 2, but I couldn't stand the compositions of Hajime Wakai in Star Fox 64.

I didn't like the voices.  It was like that joke they did on Family Guy where there are "wrong-sounding Muppets" after Jim Henson died.

I didn't like the script or the dialogue.  It makes me cringe.

I didn't like the visuals.  But in general I've never liked Nintendo 64 graphics.  There's always something about them that made me feel uneasy, particularly the antialiasing.

I didn't like the appearance of the characters.  I like Star Fox characters as drawn or puppet-style, not as 3D.  This was made much more tolerable in later games where 3D detail greatly improved, but it came with certainly fundamental redesigns of character appearances that didn't sit with me well - especially Peppy's and Pepper's appearances.

I am a huge, huge Star Fox fan, and have been for most of my life.  But I just haven't found any likability in Star Fox 64 or any of the games that followed.  I'm not really a fan of the reboot.  Star Fox (1993) and Star Fox 2 (1995) - those are some of my favorite games ever.

But there's still a great deal of the new stuff since the reboot I warmed up to.  Wolf O'Donnell is awesome.  Lucy seems like a nice addition to the ensemble.  Beltino gives Slippy some useful background.  The new planets were nice, though I missed the Battle Base Meteor from before.

[Robert Monroe]

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Well, what was wrong with Star Fox 64?

I didn't like that they rebooted the story.  The 1993-1995 story was extremely influential on my teenage imagination.  The reboot shook that badly.

I didn't like the music.  This is probably my single worst complaint.  I love the music of Star Fox and Star Fox 2, but I couldn't stand the compositions of Hajime Wakai in Star Fox 64.

I didn't like the voices.  It was like that joke they did on Family Guy where there are "wrong-sounding Muppets" after Jim Henson died.

I didn't like the script or the dialogue.  It makes me cringe.

I didn't like the visuals.  But in general I've never liked Nintendo 64 graphics.  There's always something about them that made me feel uneasy, particularly the antialiasing.

I didn't like the appearance of the characters.  I like Star Fox characters as drawn or puppet-style, not as 3D.  This was made much more tolerable in later games where 3D detail greatly improved, but it came with certainly fundamental redesigns of character appearances that didn't sit with me well - especially Peppy's and Pepper's appearances.

I am a huge, huge Star Fox fan, and have been for most of my life.  But I just haven't found any likability in Star Fox 64 or any of the games that followed.  I'm not really a fan of the reboot.  Star Fox (1993) and Star Fox 2 (1995) - those are some of my favorite games ever.

But there's still a great deal of the new stuff since the reboot I warmed up to.  Wolf O'Donnell is awesome.  Lucy seems like a nice addition to the ensemble.  Beltino gives Slippy some useful background.  The new planets were nice, though I missed the Battle Base Meteor from before.

I'll agree that I do like the SNES story, however several parts of it and the 64 story are compatible.

The music was generally better in SNES Starfox (more space-opera imo), but the 64 music was nothing to sneeze at. Zoness and Starwolf in paticular have great soundtracks.

The voices are not bad. They are not amazing, but its better than say, a Resident Evil game. And its better than inane sound effects. The script was no worse than the SNES game's script, which had such stellar examples of writing like RETROS, RETROS, FIRE RETROS.

The Nintendo 64 I am pretty sure doesn't -have- anti aliasing. Maybe it does, but even then actual textured polygons is better than nondescript "3D sprites". I like the SNES aesthetic, but only because it had the comic to show me what all these FX effects REALLY looked like.

Those puppets were hilariously bad and disproportionate. The 64 models were ugly as sin too, but they were basically an after thought. It was the 3D era, everything was going to be 3D. Had the technology been around, the SNES characters would have used 3D mugshots too in the game instead of sprites with all of 2 or 3 fames of animation. I will give you I miss Pepper's badass aviators, though.

I am also a huge, HUGE Starfox fan. I LOVE the SNES game to death, but the SF64 blows it away in almost every way. Both games hav cheesy dialogue, cheesy designs, and a ton of pop culture references. SNES Starfox is clunky, unfair at times, slow, and really dated. SF64 is fast, smooth, and easy to pick up, and much more timeless.

I do miss Meteor though. They should bring it back as a full out Zero-G ammusement park like it was supposed to be.

[Thu'um]

long.......coment

[Dermot]

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I'll agree that I do like the SNES story, however several parts of it and the 64 story are compatible.

I agree too.  Largely compatible.

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The music was generally better in SNES Starfox (more space-opera imo), but the 64 music was nothing to sneeze at. Zoness and Starwolf in paticular have great soundtracks.

I didn't really like any of Star Fox 64's music.

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The voices are not bad. They are not amazing, but its better than say, a Resident Evil game. And its better than inane sound effects. The script was no worse than the SNES game's script, which had such stellar examples of writing like RETROS, RETROS, FIRE RETROS.

I liked and preferred the simlish-style voices.  They were one of my favorite things about the SNES game.

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Those puppets were hilariously bad and disproportionate. The 64 models were ugly as sin too, but they were basically an after thought. It was the 3D era, everything was going to be 3D. Had the technology been around, the SNES characters would have used 3D mugshots too in the game instead of sprites with all of 2 or 3 fames of animation. I will give you I miss Pepper's badass aviators, though.

Those puppets were some of my favorite visuals of the original.  Also, I generally prefer animated sprites over 3D renders, even in an otherwise 3D environment.  (See Breath of Fire III, Xenogears or Wild Arms 2.)  Also, that they "would have" had 3D mugshots is not clear-cut - 3D renders of characters do well in the Western demographic, while the Japanese demographic usually prefers the drawn animation aesthetic for characters.  These are among many complex reasons why some games do better in the West and other games do better in Japan.  I was born and raised in Hawai'i's sphere of influence, and my tastes tend to straddle the Japanese-Western cultural gap.

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I am also a huge, HUGE Starfox fan. I LOVE the SNES game to death, but the SF64 blows it away in almost every way. Both games hav cheesy dialogue, cheesy designs, and a ton of pop culture references. SNES Starfox is clunky, unfair at times, slow, and really dated. SF64 is fast, smooth, and easy to pick up, and much more timeless.

I didn't actually enjoy Star Fox 64's gameplay...or most things about it.

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I do miss Meteor though. They should bring it back as a full out Zero-G ammusement park like it was supposed to be.

Zero-G park?  Or a G-Zero track? :P

[Robert Monroe]

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I agree too.  Largely compatible.

I didn't really like any of Star Fox 64's music.

I liked and preferred the simlish-style voices.  They were one of my favorite things about the SNES game.

Those puppets were some of my favorite visuals of the original.  Also, I generally prefer animated sprites over 3D renders, even in an otherwise 3D environment.  (See Breath of Fire III, Xenogears or Wild Arms 2.)  Also, that they "would have" had 3D mugshots is not clear-cut - 3D renders of characters do well in the Western demographic, while the Japanese demographic usually prefers the drawn animation aesthetic for characters.  These are among many complex reasons why some games do better in the West and other games do better in Japan.  I was born and raised in Hawai'i's sphere of influence, and my tastes tend to straddle the Japanese-Western cultural gap.

I didn't actually enjoy Star Fox 64's gameplay...or most things about it.

Zero-G park?  Or a G-Zero track?

Then there is no problem with the story aspect. Especially considering SF64's credits gives special thanks to Itoh anyway.

I can not entirely see how, because SF64 has tracks that are much better than some of the SNES tracks. They are however over very different THEMES, with SNES being more flighty and space operatic, and 64 being more military-themed.

The puppets were in advertisements and the manual. They weren't even in the game. And the 2D sprites of the SNES game were minimal anyway, though I will say SF2 had excellent sprites.

And if the Japanese demographic likes 2D art so much, why did SF64 have those poorly rendered mugshots? I honestly would have loved sprite art instead of them too.

I am not sure how you can't enjoy SF64's gameplay either, because it is objectively better than SNES Starfox in EVERY WAY. You might need to remove these:

[Dermot]

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Then there is no problem with the story aspect. Especially considering SF64's credits gives special thanks to Itoh anyway.

Okay.

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I can not entirely see how, because SF64 has tracks that are much better than some of the SNES tracks. They are however over very different THEMES, with SNES being more flighty and space operatic, and 64 being more military-themed.

I rather liked the SNES approach of using rock and jazz on the planets, metal in the battles, and orchestra in open space.  But my biggest problem with Star Fox 64's music was that it sounded like it was trying too hard to be The Last Starfighter's music - it struck me as a cheesy attempt.

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The puppets were in advertisements and the manual. They weren't even in the game. And the 2D sprites of the SNES game were minimal anyway, though I will say SF2 had excellent sprites.

The game box and cartridge art too. XD

Well, Star Fox 1 had some really nice ones, like the title illustrations, the "Continue?" screen (loved that one and its voice), and the randomly ejecting lizard pilot.  And yes, Star Fox 2 had fantastic sprites.

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And if the Japanese demographic likes 2D art so much, why did SF64 have those poorly rendered mugshots? I honestly would have loved sprite art instead of them too.

Both sides of the pond like a little of both.  But in Japan the 2D art tends to be better liked, and in the West the 3D art tends to be better liked.  Star Fox 64 felt more like a poorly-executed attempt at trying 3D.  The irony is, those poorly-rendered mugshots were themselves sprites - of 3D rendered animation frames.

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I am not sure how you can't enjoy SF64's gameplay either, because it is objectively better than SNES Starfox in EVERY WAY. You might need to remove these:

Please don't patronize me.

I played both, and I completed Star Fox 64.  I preferred the SNES controls.  Not that there was nothing salvageable from the N64 controls (some of the new features like loop-back were interesting), and I like the analog stick in certain games, but I always felt more comfortable with the SNES control pad controls than the N64 analog stick controls.

[Robert Monroe]

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I rather liked the SNES approach of using rock and jazz on the planets, metal in the battles, and orchestra in open space.  But my biggest problem with Star Fox 64's music was that it sounded like it was trying too hard to be The Last Starfighter's music - it struck me as a cheesy attempt.

Like I said, SF64 had more military-themed music. The Corneria stage was very "military", the end credits were pratically a band march. Not sure where you get the Last Starfighter from, though, or the "cheesy" factor, because the SNES game had plenty of that too in the music, just in different flavors, although Space Armada and Venom's sruface come close to SF64's musical style.

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The game box and cartridge art too. XD

Well, Star Fox 1 had some really nice ones, like the title illustrations, the "Continue?" screen (loved that one and its voice), and the randomly ejecting lizard pilot.  And yes, Star Fox 2 had fantastic sprites.

Ok, yeah, box and cart art too. Still wasn't IN THE GAME, except for the poorly drawn "game over" Fox McCloud. Randomly ejecting lizard pilot wasn't really a well-detailed sprite, in part due to the fact he gets Super FX'd to look like he's flying past you.

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Both sides of the pond like a little of both.  But in Japan the 2D art tends to be better liked, and in the West the 3D art tends to be better liked.  Star Fox 64 felt more like a poorly-executed attempt at trying 3D.  The irony is, those poorly-rendered mugshots were themselves sprites - of 3D rendered animation frames.

Yes, the 3D in SF64's character designs do feel half-assed. Just look at their models in the multiplayer mode. And yeah, the mugshots were sprites of said poorly rendered character models, which is just balmy.

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Please don't patronize me.

I played both, and I completed Star Fox 64.  I preferred the SNES controls.  Not that there was nothing salvageable from the N64 controls (some of the new features like loop-back were interesting), and I like the analog stick in certain games, but I always felt more comfortable with the SNES control pad controls than the N64 analog stick controls.

I'm not patronizing you, the SNES game was clunky as hell. I play it and SF64 often, I have played both recently, and SNES SF is slow and awkward. It is a "learned" control style, like the "tank" styled Resident Evil games. They were not legitimately good controls, but over time people just got so used to them that they disliked controls that were intuitively BETTER. This all said, the N64 did have a pretty faulty control stick, but even with that SF64 controls much more smoothly than the SNES game ever did. AND it doesn't have slowdown either.

[Dermot]

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Like I said, SF64 had more military-themed music. The Corneria stage was very "military", the end credits were pratically a band march. Not sure where you get the Last Starfighter from, though, or the "cheesy" factor, because the SNES game had plenty of that too in the music, just in different flavors, although Space Armada and Venom's sruface come close to SF64's musical style.

Actually I liked just about every single music track in Star Fox SNES.  I liked the perky bouncy semi-tongue-in-cheek feel of some of the tunes. :3 Hajime Hirasawa is one of my favorite-ever composers.

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Ok, yeah, box and cart art too. Still wasn't IN THE GAME, except for the poorly drawn "game over" Fox McCloud. Randomly ejecting lizard pilot wasn't really a well-detailed sprite, in part due to the fact he gets Super FX'd to look like he's flying past you.

I loved that "game over" Fox McCloud - that's the one I was talking about.

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I'm not patronizing you, the SNES game was clunky as hell. I play it and SF64 often, I have played both recently, and SNES SF is slow and awkward. It is a "learned" control style, like the "tank" styled Resident Evil games. They were not legitimately good controls, but over time people just got so used to them that they disliked controls that were intuitively BETTER. This all said, the N64 did have a pretty faulty control stick, but even with that SF64 controls much more smoothly than the SNES game ever did. AND it doesn't have slowdown either.

I got used to the SNES controls a lot faster than the N64 controls.  I could never quite get used to the N64 controls.  My experience is just the opposite of what you said - the SNES controls felt smooth and intuitive, and the N64 controls were constantly frustrating.  (I couldn't get used to Star Fox Command's touchpad-based controls either.)

I have my own very real reasons for preferring one game over the other.  When you said I was wearing nostalgia goggles and plastered that great big gag image to rub it in, it was...actually quite insulting.  People just like what they like - it's not necessarily something that'll be magically fixed by trying to tell them they're looking at it the wrong way.  I can appreciate that a great many people genuinely like and enjoy Star Fox 64, and I'd never try to take that from them.  I'm just not one of those people.  I have played Star Fox 64, and completed it.  I don't like it.  I have never liked it.  I am 100% entitled to that.  I'm a snesser.

[Vy'drach]

You two are having an opinion clash, and the chance of either one of you convincing the other is between slim and none, because it's just that, opinion. None of the Star Fox games are "better" than the others. It falls under personal preference. Some people like the N64 Joystick, others like the D-pad on the SNES. Some like the voice-acting for 64 (I personally found nothing "stupid" or "cheesy" about it), others liked the garbled "Lylat-speech" of the original. Guess what, there are people who think Command was the best Star Fox game. While I strongly disagree with them, that's there opinion and they are entitled to think it, and you can argue back and forth until you're blue in the face, and get no where.

Also, might not want to use things such as "Nostalgia Goggles," because after all, just because you think the newest incarnation of something is better, doesn't mean it is. Modern Warfare 2 sucks in my opinion, but Modern Warfare was awesome, and is better than MW2, despite being older.

[Asper Sarnoff]

While the nostalgia glasses would be a huge laugh if they weren't directed at anyone in particular, they were a low blow in a discussion like this. As Dermot himself states, he did find it insulting, and I hope you will assure him that it was not meant as such.

[Dermot]

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You two are having an opinion clash, and the chance of either one of you convincing the other is between slim and none, because it's just that, opinion. None of the Star Fox games are "better" than the others. It falls under personal preference. Some people like the N64 Joystick, others like the D-pad on the SNES. Some like the voice-acting for 64 (I personally found nothing "stupid" or "cheesy" about it), others liked the garbled "Lylat-speech" of the original. Guess what, there are people who think Command was the best Star Fox game. While I strongly disagree with them, that's there opinion and they are entitled to think it, and you can argue back and forth until you're blue in the face, and get no where.

Also, might not want to use things such as "Nostalgia Goggles," because after all, just because you think the newest incarnation of something is better, doesn't mean it is. Modern Warfare 2 sucks in my opinion, but Modern Warfare was awesome, and is better than MW2, despite being older.

Thanks, Vydrach.  I was trying to work under that assumption - it was an interesting friendly debate with contrasting opinion...until it got too personal.

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While the nostalgia glasses would be a huge laugh if they weren't directed at anyone in particular, they were a low blow in a discussion like this. As Dermot himself states, he did find it insulting, and I hope you will assure him that it was not meant as such.

I hope I didn't overreact.  My mood isn't usually that easily soured, I should hope.

[Robert Monroe]

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Actually I liked just about every single music track in Star Fox SNES.  I liked the perky bouncy semi-tongue-in-cheek feel of some of the tunes. :3 Hajime Hirasawa is one of my favorite-ever composers.

I did say most of SNES Starfox's music was good. The only one I really dislike is Fortuna, but everything about that level sucks, from the ocean segment to the damn boss, so take that as you will.

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I have my own very real reasons for preferring one game over the other.  When you said I was wearing nostalgia goggles and plastered that great big gag image to rub it in, it was...actually quite insulting.  People just like what they like - it's not necessarily something that'll be magically fixed by trying to tell them they're looking at it the wrong way.  I can appreciate that a great many people genuinely like and enjoy Star Fox 64, and I'd never try to take that from them.  I'm just not one of those people.  I have played Star Fox 64, and completed it.  I don't like it.  I have never liked it.  I am 100% entitled to that.  I'm a snesser.

I don't intend to insult, and I pologize if I did. I'm a SNESer too, you know. You are entitled to your opinion, for sure, although I will never see how someone finds clunky, laggy 16bit digital controls more intuitive than a control stick. And Command's controls suck for everyone, so there's something we can agree on at least.

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Also, might not want to use things such as "Nostalgia Goggles," because after all, just because you think the newest incarnation of something is better, doesn't mean it is. Modern Warfare 2 sucks in my opinion, but Modern Warfare was awesome, and is better than MW2, despite being older.

Nostalgia Goggles refers to when people like something older even when its inferior just because of the memories attatched to it. There's less of reason behind the liking and moreso just "durrhurr I just like it more". Some nostalgia is fine, but when it clouds judgement, its not. That said, Dermot has provided enough reasons to waver me off his tastes.

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I hope I didn't overreact.  My mood isn't usually that easily soured, I should hope.

You didn't overreact. People who overreact through profanities at me and other similar lovely things.

I will say I'm taken aback by your offense to nostalgia goggles but not anything else I've thrown around though. If I'm posting an image, its meant to maintain humor and poking fun at the discussion at hand. If I want to do personal attacks, I cut the bullshit.

And I never do deliberate personal attacks.

[Vy'drach]

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Nostalgia Goggles refers to when people like something older even when its inferior just because of the memories attatched to it. There's less of reason behind the liking and moreso just "durrhurr I just like it more". Some nostalgia is fine, but when it clouds judgement, its not. That said, Dermot has provided enough reasons to waver me off his tastes.

I will say I'm taken aback by your offense to nostalgia goggles but not anything else I've thrown around though. If I'm posting an image, its meant to maintain humor and poking fun at the discussion at hand. If I want to do personal attacks, I cut the bullshit.

I know what nostalgia goggles are, and I was saying that "inferior" is a matter of opinion. Because you find it inferior doesn't mean that he does. Newer =/= better.

And humour is all well and good, but you have to be careful how you do it. I have several images showing a stereotypical account of religions, and I find them to be quite hilarious, but I don't post them because it can be easily taken as a challenge of people's beliefs and an insult to them, and thus, they can be found offensive to a lot of people. Remember, there is something called "Insult comedy," and belittling one's beliefs can be a version of that.

[Dermot]

I think I'm done with this particular debate.

Though, on a personal note, the Fortuna theme was one of my favorites.  It's exactly the kind of music I'd wished there was more of.

[Thu'um]

story is the reason you love and not jusy like a game music is secondary

[Guest DRL]

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story is the reason you love and not jusy like a game music is secondary

Street Fighter 2010 had a...

More or less cliché story.

And do you know WHY I loved,

and will allways love it? Simple:

The AWEC00L music tracks.

[Dermot]

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Street Fighter 2010 had a...

More or less cliché story.

And do you know WHY I loved,

and will allways love it? Simple:

The AWEC00L music tracks.

This is often why I love a game. :3 It's part of why I love games like Deep Labyrinth even while they are panned by critics. :P

[Guest DRL]

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This is often why I love a game. :3 It's part of why I love games like Deep Labyrinth even while they are panned by critics.

True.

You know, I actualy like SF2010,

but it is mostly the same example.

"Sucky game" here, "Too hard" there,

"If it had not used the 'Street Fighter' title

it might have been outright ignored..."

But aside of that, the music is just... Uh,

LEGENDARY. I used to die at some levels

to replay them again, even when I 'could' defeat

the boss, only to listen to the awesome music

over and over again. (Great thing it had unlimited

continues...)

[Dermot]

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True.

You know, I actualy like SF2010,

but it is mostly the same example.

"Sucky game" here, "Too hard" there,

"If it had not used the 'Street Fighter' title

it might have been outright ignored..."

But aside of that, the music is just... Uh,

LEGENDARY. I used to die at some levels

to replay them again, even when I 'could' defeat

the boss, only to listen to the awesome music

over and over again. (Great thing it had unlimited

continues...)

I should find the NSF set sometime. :3

[Thu'um]

uh i dont want to she on foot shooting only landmaster an arwing

[Guest DRL]

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I should find the NSF set sometime. :3

I really recommed specially the...

Uh, music on the 'Night City' level.

One of my all-time favourites. :wink: