Homosexuality and SFO

[Mr. Foxer]

I don't care as long as it's kept private, as in not posted.

[Velocity]

I generally do not mind homsexsual

people. I admit that I do not... 'apreciate'

the homosexual art as much as they do,

but that is mostly personall preference,

and in no way I am offended by it.

I mean, from my perpective, I find girls

attractive, but I do not mind if any of my

male classmates finds boys attractive -

all I ask of them is that we respect each other.

I have to say that

I look as male homosexuality in the same way

I look to female homosexuality, and I do not find

two girls kissing each other attractive at all.

That in no way means that I feel offended by it,

nor that I find it 'inapropiate' - they are free to do

it, after all.

In fact, I actively discourage racial/sexual hating

and I like homphomes as much as I like machists and

fememinists... And we have to consider that I do NOT

like them at all.

As for images, well, we could leave them be.

I really do not mind Falco and Bill kissing, nor

I do mind Katt and Krystal kissing. In the same vein,

I do not find either interesting/attractive,

but that is my own choice, and your choice is so,

yours.

this

[Matt Macdowel]

i think those people who having something against homosexaulitys should just grow up

+ if they got a problem with it they can just mind as well leave the inernet!

[Dermot]

i think those people who having something against homosexaulitys should just grow up

+ if they got a problem with it they can just mind as well leave the inernet!

Yeah, exactly.  There is no cure for homophobia that doesn't come from within.  So one must either live with it, or get over it, but it's still up to them, and not up to me if I'm not the one with the prejudice.  I have self-respect. :3

[Mr. Foxer]

There's no problem as long as you don't post something homophobic if no one wants to see it.

[CrypticQuery]

I have no problem with it.  I don't know why people would, It's your choice, and if you don't want to, then DON'T! Plain and simple.  :D

[fox1235]

I don't really have anything against gays. Through as other people said I feel weird looking at gay artwork. Through I dont usually go to the artwork section.

[DZComposer]

Good point.  Sounds like I should consider a reasonable thumbnailing option.I'm not entirely sure.

This reminds me of when the government of the state of Utah was uncomfortable with gay-straight alliances in Utah public schools, but couldn't find a valid reason to ban them, so they instead banned all non-academic clubs.  Though the ban was theoretically equal, the motivation that led to the ban was driven by prejudice.  Eventually a court struck that down because the only reason they did that was to stop the gay-straight alliances.

If there genuinely is a general problem with kissing (no matter who's kissing who), I can appreciate that.  But if kissing is being hidden just because people don't like gay kissing but they don't care about straight kissing, then it sounds more like what I referenced above.

If that's true, it would seem more sensible just to not ban things, and foster an environment of tolerance and equal expression.  When people have had a prejudice that leads to them being uncomfortable, and the prejudice is certainly not something that can be supported, it doesn't serve justice to coddle the prejudice using broad restrictions that limit something else that wasn't controversial to begin with.  It serves justice to support and defend equal rights.

And, to be honest, it makes me very uncomfortable when someone is actually willing to sacrifice their own rights they would normally take for granted, just to prevent someone who makes them uncomfortable from practicing equivilent equal rights.

Imagine if someone wanted to post a picture of Fox and Krystal kissing, and they were told it's forbidden.  They would think it might be weird, and they would ask why.  You'd tell them it's a rule.  And they might ask why it's a rule.  Would you feel comfortable telling them why it became a rule?

As long as the decisions are motivated by any kind of prejudice or to appease someone else's unequal prejudice, then it will still be inherently offensive to LGBT people.  Because, believe me, I've heard every variation of this.  The cause is still transparent, and that's still belittling.  So no, it is not satisfactory, because it is not equal, because the restrictive terms are being decided by people uncomfortable enough to sacrifice their own rights to superficially appear equal.  People will just have to learn to live with the reality their own prejudices bring them when they have to coexist with a gay person.  As long as equality is real, there is no way around that.  And if someone's own prejudice ends up making them miserable for failing to transcend, then that's just how it ends up being - it's their problem, not mine.

At least, that's my take on this concept.

Do people realize just how fanservicy Krystal is all the time?  And how annoying that can be to a gay person? X3 But it's nothing to complain about, because it's an equal right, and I support it.  Because there's just no way there would be a ban on Krystal's figure, when it is typically portrayed so much more graphic than anything I would post.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't proposing a ban. I was making it so that you have to click a link to see it. This is something that I think should be done with more images, anyway. Especially as scanner resolution grows larger than monitor resolution.

I'm all for embracing tolerance, and using education to combat bigotry, but one of the issues is the underpinning moral standards of many people who are offended by these materials. When you are told from toddler age that something is wrong, and continue to get that reinforced throughout your life, it becomes pretty deeply ingrained, and probably more-so than can be dealt with on an internet forum. Add that to that the fact that some people would take it as an attack on their faith, and I am afraid that this solution would lead to more drama in the future.

I want to reduce drama in the most fair way possible, and at this point I don't see a solution without both sides having to make concessions.

[Ris Grestar]

I vote we just have -links- to art, not the actual images visible in threads themselves.

[Dermot]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't proposing a ban. I was making it so that you have to click a link to see it. This is something that I think should be done with more images, anyway. Especially as scanner resolution grows larger than monitor resolution.

I'm all for embracing tolerance, and using education to combat bigotry, but one of the issues is the underpinning moral standards of many people who are offended by these materials. When you are told from toddler age that something is wrong, and continue to get that reinforced throughout your life, it becomes pretty deeply ingrained, and probably more-so than can be dealt with on an internet forum. Add that to that the fact that some people would take it as an attack on their faith, and I am afraid that this solution would lead to more drama in the future.

I want to reduce drama in the most fair way possible, and at this point I don't see a solution without both sides having to make concessions.

Well, like I said, of course I appreciate your difficulty.  You have my utmost respect. :3 However it turns out, it remains - I won't sacrifice my basic equality for anyone's comfort.  More often than not, I ignore the prejudice, especially as it accumulates.  For rights to be rights, they have to be equal, and they must be protected, even and especially if they are threatened.  Surely you understand where I'm coming from in this. :3 Fair is fair.  No matter how deeply ingrained, prejudice simply cannot be made my problem - if it becomes my problem, then it puts an unequal greater institutional burden on me, and that is inherently discriminatory, and that is a truth that cannot be hidden.  I have the right to rise above and ignore prejudice and be a self-respecting equal user. :3

DZ, you have treated me very kindly through all this.  I'm sure you'll keep trying to do so, because you strike me as a very principled person, and I admire that a great deal. :3 Just keep as a rule of thumb - I won't be unequal and reward prejudice in any way, even if the world comes crashing down unable to live with it.  I'm a liberated equal individual.  More than that - I am a survivor of a adversity. :3 I would be nothing without my ethics or integrity.

All this, I can say with an unburdened soul and a smile on my face. :3

[Wolf OConner]

I really have no problems with gays, its just that when I'm in a public place like say a amusement park with young children all around me and these wto dudes start making out in front of all them, it gets to me cause they are just force feeding it down everyone's throats.

[Guest FoXXX]

There's nothing wrong with gays, and there's nothing wrong with gay art.

People who have a problem with gays, either need to keep their opinion to themselves or go express it somewhere appropriate.

The less we talk about this subject, the better off we'll be.

[Matt Macdowel]

There's nothing wrong with gays, and there's nothing wrong with gay art.

People who have a problem with gays, either need to keep their opinion to themselves or go express it somewhere appropriate.

The less we talk about this subject, the better off we'll be.

preety much what i was about to say!

[Sarita]

I really have no problems with gays, its just that when I'm in a public place like say a amusement park with young children all around me and these wto dudes start making out in front of all them, it gets to me cause they are just force feeding it down everyone's throats.

And a man and a woman making out in an amusement park isn't shoving it down our throats, too? Sure, there's a line of appropriateness, but drawing the line farther away for gays and not using the same line for straight people is inherently prejudiced and bigoted.

[Guest FoXXX]

And a man and a woman making out in an amusement park isn't shoving it down our throats, too? Sure, there's a line of appropriateness, but drawing the line farther away for gays and not using the same line for straight people is inherently prejudiced and bigoted.

^What I was thinking

[Wolf OConner]

And a man and a woman making out in an amusement park isn't shoving it down our throats, too? Sure, there's a line of appropriateness, but drawing the line farther away for gays and not using the same line for straight people is inherently prejudiced and bigoted.

Sorry . I forgot to include that, I'm just out of it today :oops:

[Steve]

Alright then, if this is what it takes to make everyone happy, I suppose we can all settle with using links when it comes to "this" kind of affection, be it straight or homosexual. With the proper description of said link.

[CrypticQuery]

There's nothing wrong with gays, and there's nothing wrong with gay art.

People who have a problem with gays, either need to keep their opinion to themselves or go express it somewhere appropriate.

The less we talk about this subject, the better off we'll be.

^ THIS! CASE CLOSED! :D

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't proposing a ban. I was making it so that you have to click a link to see it. This is something that I think should be done with more images, anyway. Especially as scanner resolution grows larger than monitor resolution.

^ This is what I'm for.  Whether it's what Dermot's posting, or even Krystal scantily clad, either way I think it should be linked, not embedded.

I have nothing against homosexuality, or gay fan art. Gay fan art is simply not my cup of tea, but when it's embedded as such a BIG IMAGE, it's hard[er] for me to ignore.  I tend to stumble on posts of those BIG IMAGES when I'm checking the recent topics/unread posts, and it's...something I'd rather not have to see, I wouldn't see it if it were hyper linked, I'd just simply not click on the hyper link to ignore it.

Some people don't like seeing Krystal in skimpy clothes.  I love it, but that doesn't mean I'll embed it, especially as a BIG IMAGE on the forums, I just simply hyper link it.

["User"]

The less we talk about this subject, the better off we'll be.

Also...the less you KNOW the better off you will be.  (Sorry I just had to throw in that Red Alert 2 quote, Yuri FTW)

[Tiberius]

I vote not caring. It has no effect on me, so why care? I mean really. Unless its directed to me personally, I don't have a problem with it. If it does, and it has before, I will try to get it banned entirely. Not saying I'll do that here. I don't care about some person's orientation.

[DZComposer]

Well, like I said, of course I appreciate your difficulty.  You have my utmost respect. :3 However it turns out, it remains - I won't sacrifice my basic equality for anyone's comfort.  More often than not, I ignore the prejudice, especially as it accumulates.  For rights to be rights, they have to be equal, and they must be protected, even and especially if they are threatened.  Surely you understand where I'm coming from in this. :3 Fair is fair.  No matter how deeply ingrained, prejudice simply cannot be made my problem - if it becomes my problem, then it puts an unequal greater institutional burden on me, and that is inherently discriminatory, and that is a truth that cannot be hidden.  I have the right to rise above and ignore prejudice and be a self-respecting equal user. :3

DZ, you have treated me very kindly through all this.  I'm sure you'll keep trying to do so, because you strike me as a very principled person, and I admire that a great deal. :3 Just keep as a rule of thumb - I won't be unequal and reward prejudice in any way, even if the world comes crashing down unable to live with it.  I'm a liberated equal individual.  More than that - I am a survivor of a adversity. :3 I would be nothing without my ethics or integrity.

All this, I can say with an unburdened soul and a smile on my face. :3

I agree completely, but what I do not understand is how asking people to link images that have significant shows of affection (gay or straight) is a sacrifice of basic equality.

We're talking about this:

VS This:

It is not post vs don't post. We're not banning anything. It is post in a way that allows people to choose whether or not they want to see it, and it is doing it in a way that applies to everything. I really don't see how this is different than many furry art sites out there that use tag systems to allow people to filter what they want or don't want to see.

Please try to understand where I am coming from. I've put many hundreds, if not thousands of hours and dollars into this community, and I don't want to see it ripped apart over something petty like fanart.

[CrypticQuery]

I agree completely, but what I do not understand is how asking people to link images that have significant shows of affection (gay or straight) is a sacrifice of basic equality.

We're talking about this:

VS This:

It is not post vs don't post. We're not banning anything. It is post in a way that allows people to choose whether or not they want to see it, and it is doing it in a way that applies to everything. I really don't see how this is different than many furry art sites out there that use tag systems to allow people to filter what they want or don't want to see.

DZComposer always makes GREAT points, and ^ THIS is one of them!

[DZComposer]

Just a quick comment to the whole community:

I am a bit taken aback by the fact that there is such a stink built up over some fanart. Is it worth sacrificing this wonderful community over JPEGs? To be honest I am a bit peeved that it has come down to discussing changes to the image policy over something that quite frankly doesn't matter for shit.

I do not want anybody to leave over God-damn fanart. I don't want the staff to leave over it, and I don't want Dermot to leave over it either.

This shit is why we have rules against bigotry. It ends up pissing everybody off, which in turn pisses me off because I have to take time out of my day to deal with it. I don't like dealing with this crap, and this particular one has put me in a sour mood for most of the week as it is forcing me to suggest betraying part of my moral framework in order to keep the peace around here, which has been hanging from my conscience like an anchor digging into the sand.

I would love to solve this without making any rule changes, but at this point it doesn't look possible. So much drama could be avoided if you simpy ask yourself "is this post going to make me look like a douchebag?" before you hit submit.

And it comes from both ends. Posting "OMG! MY EYES!" after someone posts a pic of Panther and Wolf kissing is stupid, but then posting an image like that in-line rather than linked after noticing that it causes a stir and being shocked when the stir goes again is equally stupid. This is why no single person is to blame here and why I have a big -F-Bomb-ing headache right now.

Thanks for your time.

[CrypticQuery]

Seriously guys, let's all take DZ's advice.  If you don't want to see it, don't look at it!  Don't make comments about it, don't PM thousands of people about it, etc.  Just leave it alone, and the balance to SF-O will be restored.  GET OVER IT PEOPLE!!