Your take on: Wolf O'Donnell

[Samantha Weltzin]

To me, it sounded as though he were a masochist, especially given Panther's sarcastic final quote there.

The connection to Wolf is that the object of his masochism was Wolf's claws and fangs. That's where one could draw that conclusion.

[Vy'drach]

Yes, that would be the one.

Anyway, if even that was not self-evident, then nothing is self-evident, anywhere, ever. It can be difficult talking about these things with people who are prone to assume everyone is straight unless otherwise noted.  I'm a post-heteronormative, and I see everyone's orientation as undefined until the details are gradually filled in.  I mean, some people are very obviously reliably straight.  But if one assumes everyone is straight, how can one take one's own perceptions seriously?  Because it's Nintendo?  Because kids are in the audience?  Because one may be located in the United States and make assumptions based on United States expectations?  I'm not an "everyone is gay" person arguing the opposite.  I'm saying it's a lot more complicated than that, on a character-by-character basis.

Did you know that Birdo is (and always has been) a guy?  And that Peach made Mario and Bowser kiss each other?

And Metal Gear Solid has its own long-standing issues of homoeroticism. Just look at the top picture of Even The Guys Want Him at tvtropes.

Only thing I can see in that picture is a bad ass, nothing homoerotic about it. I have a picture of Snake on my wall, simply because he is the ultimate bad ass without super powers. And I knew the other things to, and Birdo has been a female on occassion, and is Yoshi's girlfriend.

And I'm not saying he's not gay, just debating, but, the only evidence you have is an Easter egg from a non-Star Fox game that implies, to me, him being either a sadist, a masochist, or both.

[Dermot]

Yoshies are androgynous.  They lay eggs. For Yoshies, male and female would almost necessarily be matters of personality more than biology.

Anyway, Birdo is never female in Japanese.  It was just a lot simpler for Nintendo to rescript him as female in English than explaining why he's always in drag.  At best, Birdo is a transwoman - the "T" in "LGBT".

[Vy'drach]

Birdo has been male in some of the games in America, and actually has a fan base with all sexualities here for being a transvestite (I personally find it hilarious and awesome).

[Robert Monroe]

On Leon's "happy" moment: I always saw that as Leon enjoys violence and the partaking of it. He could care less if it was Wolf or whoever else is doing. He just loves to Brawl.

[Dermot]

Anyway, I digress.  I am still entirely confident in my opinion that Wolf is quite gay.  But what's wrong if he was?  It's just personality. :3 And this thread asks for people's take on him, no? :3

[Samantha Weltzin]

Yes, but you violated societal expectations. Homosexuality is what we like to call a "Hot-button topic." Just gets everyone's blood boiling.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Ah, Wolf. The character the fandom has made the most varations of, bar none.

For me, Wolf is a "buisness first" kind of guy. Fox is his rival, and he'll do anything to one-up him at his game, hence he has no problem hiring men like Leon (mysterious, murderous, and cold) or Pigma (selfish, brutish, and insensitive). To this, I find the fact Wolf chased Pigma out to be out of character. Wolf doesn't really have a set code of "honor", he's a space desperado. To be sure, he's not villain, and he's not a monster, but he really isn't a guy who'd seem to care about appearances, and considering Pigma has repute as a capable veteran pilot of at least Peppy's standards, yeah.

I also do not see Wolf as much of a sociable person. That isn't to say he has no friends (he arguably knows Leon better than anyone else in Lylat), he just isn't one who shows it around. Where as Fox and Slippy will goof off and play video games, or Fox and Falco will have a few drinks and maintain a friendly rivalry, Wolf is almost entirely an introvert. Silent, understandable "friendship" between him and his mates. Much like his race, Wolf is a loner, but not ALONE. He's a pack leader too. Leading into this, I always saw Wolf as a mentor as well, to some degree, mostly for Andrew. Needless to say they have conflicting personalities, and Andrew most definitely pisses Wolf off 24/7, but Wolf likely sees a man that can be made from Andrew's youthful desire. Wolf might hate his antics, but he doesn't hate the ape himself, as it were.

Above all other things, I see Wolf as MATURE. This is what truly seperates him from Fox. Fox is brash, heroic, and emotional. Wolf is calm, reasonable, and above all other things, mature. He speaks alot without saying alot, but he isn't detatched like Leon is. He simply has a presense about him that speaks for him, saving his words for more important things, like giving orders.

Oh, and he's definitely and anti-hero. Wolf does the job, no matter how dirty. Starfox are mercs, Starwolf are pratically vigilantes for hire.

^ I'd have to [mostly] agree with this.

"Wolf, if you wear an eye patch, why are you also a pilot.  Lemme introduce to a friend of mine....his name is depth perception!"

"Why you little...." *tries to smack Fox, but misses and smacks the empty space in front of Fox*

"Ow...that hurt...the air!" *laughs*

 

[Vy'drach]

^ I'd have to [mostly] agree with this.

"Wolf, if you wear an eye patch, why are you also a pilot.  Lemme introduce to a friend of mine....his name is depth perception!"

"Why you little...." *tries to smack Fox, but misses and smacks the empty space in front of Fox*

"Ow...that hurt...the air!" *laughs*

 

Lawl, Futurama.

Anyway, I digress.  I am still entirely confident in my opinion that Wolf is quite gay.  But what's wrong if he was?  It's just personality. :3 And this thread asks for people's take on him, no? :3

Yes, but you violated societal expectations. Homosexuality is what we like to call a "Hot-button topic." Just gets everyone's blood boiling.

I just like to debate things, and you're entitled to your opinions, I just don't happen to see Wolf or Leon as gay (Wolf's costume doesn't look anything like Razor Ramon HG's to me, it looks more like a practical street thug attire, as that does appear to be "street thug" clothing, though with a practical application)

[Dermot]

Yes, but you violated societal expectations. Homosexuality is what we like to call a "Hot-button topic." Just gets everyone's blood boiling.

No.  Gay and straight are equal.  No more, no less.  I don't give prejudice a free pass, no matter how subtle (and even unconscious) it might be. :3 The subtler forms are more forgivable, but they need to be kindly pointed out and corrected.  This includes faux pas like treating gay people as abnormal or inferior - this can be highly insulting and defaming.  Gay is not an especially mature or sexual topic, any more than straight is.  And a lot of people constantly take their straight lives for granted - in public, in popular entertainment, in their pictures at their desk, etc.  If it is possible to talk about someone's straight life in a G-rated manner, the same works for gay people in equivalent circumstances.  This is a forum for Star Fox discussion.  Not Star Fox discussion "only as long as it is straight". :3 If I see scantily-clad Krystal everywhere, you can tolerate some gay character introspection.

Societal expectations cannot trump this.  We all come from many different societies anyway.  I know many of you are general Americans.  I come from an obscure little island in the northwest Pacific.  Let us deal with other using international etiquette and without assumptions of cultural background. :3 I should warn you - I do bring up Japanese culture a lot, but not as a detached triviality - I spend a lot of time on the Japanese Internet and have some Japanese friends, and where culture of Star Fox is concerned, I generally yield to Japanese common wisdom.  ???????

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Careful, guys, let's not get this thread locked... :nervous:

[Samantha Weltzin]

No.  Gay and straight are equal.  No more, no less.  I don't give prejudice a free pass, no matter how subtle (and even unconscious) it might be. :3 The subtler forms are more forgivable, but they need to be kindly pointed out and corrected.  This includes faux pas like treating gay people as abnormal or inferior - this can be highly insulting and defaming.  Gay is not an especially mature or sexual topic, any more than straight is.  And a lot of people constantly take their straight lives for granted - in public, in popular entertainment, in their pictures at their desk, etc.  If it is possible to talk about someone's straight life in a G-rated manner, the same works for gay people in equivalent circumstances.  This is a forum for Star Fox discussion.  Not Star Fox discussion "only as long as it is straight". :3 If I see scantily-clad Krystal everywhere, you can tolerate some gay character introspection.

Societal expectations cannot trump this.  We all come from many different societies anyway.

I wasn't admonishing you for bringing it up. I was simply explaining why you got everyone jumping in on you. If you bring up homosexuality, especially for beloved characters, blood pressure will rise. somewhere.

Careful, guys, let's not get this thread locked...

Don't worry. We're still talking about Wolf, even if only incidentally. It's not off-topic.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Don't worry. We're still talking about Wolf, even if only incidentally. It's not off-topic.

Oh, okay...I was mainly afraid of the nature of the debate might potentially ignite a flamewar, not necessarily by you two (Dermot and Samantha W.), but by a third party (another member) joining your discussion.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Oh, okay...I was mainly afraid of the nature of the debate might potentially ignite a flamewar, not necessarily by you two (Dermot and Samantha W.), but by a third party (another member) joining your discussion.

If it does, I'll flag 'em. No big deal.

[Matrilwood]

Until I came here, my idea of Wolf O'Donnell was the 3rd Boss in Starfox64 that if you didn't defeat him in 5 minuets you were taken on the easy campaign. Also, he's a pirate. Nah, seriously, my respect for Wolf died when he didn't kill Fox. The guy was sitting on Wolf's wing, what better chance do you have to do a barrel roll and splatter your arch-rival across the pavement?

[Robert Monroe]

Until I came here, my idea of Wolf O'Donnell was the 3rd Boss in Starfox64 that if you didn't defeat him in 5 minuets you were taken on the easy campaign. Also, he's a pirate. Nah, seriously, my respect for Wolf died when he didn't kill Fox. The guy was sitting on Wolf's wing, what better chance do you have to do a barrel roll and splatter your arch-rival across the pavement?

Becuase the entire ruttin Lylat System was about to die?

[Dermot]

Oh, I'm calm. :3 You would know if I were angry. I'm just trying to change societal expectations, little by little. :3

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A pirate?  Talk about your Village People candidates. :lol:

[Milkyway64]

No.  Gay and straight are equal.  No more, no less.  I don't give prejudice a free pass, no matter how subtle (and even unconscious) it might be. :3 The subtler forms are more forgivable, but they need to be kindly pointed out and corrected.  This includes faux pas like treating gay people as abnormal or inferior - this can be highly insulting and defaming.  Gay is not an especially mature or sexual topic, any more than straight is.  And a lot of people constantly take their straight lives for granted - in public, in popular entertainment, in their pictures at their desk, etc.  If it is possible to talk about someone's straight life in a G-rated manner, the same works for gay people in equivalent circumstances.  This is a forum for Star Fox discussion.  Not Star Fox discussion "only as long as it is straight". :3 If I see scantily-clad Krystal everywhere, you can tolerate some gay character introspection.

Societal expectations cannot trump this.  We all come from many different societies anyway.  I know many of you are general Americans.  I come from an obscure little island in the northwest Pacific.  Let us deal with other using international etiquette and without assumptions of cultural background. :3 I should warn you - I do bring up Japanese culture a lot, but not as a detached triviality - I spend a lot of time on the Japanese Internet and have some Japanese friends, and where culture of Star Fox is concerned, I generally yield to Japanese common wisdom.  ???????

Defensive much?

It's as Sam says. It's a touchy subject especially with beloved characters who have very little to no indication of being such. Again, it looks a lot to me like you're imposing your own visualization of the series into fact using strong words like "is" and "definitely" when describing them.

This is a forum for Star Fox discussion.  Not Star Fox discussion "only as long as it is straight". :3 If I see scantily-clad Krystal everywhere, you can tolerate some gay character introspection.

Only, HELLO, StarFox is not exactly a porno, or erotica, or anything that calls for gay/straight discussion at ALL, especially on this site which is supposed to be "family safe." Discussion of Fox/Krystal or Katt/Falco is okay because it HAPPENS IN THE GAMES and because those two are the best we have to pairings that don't spiral off into fanwank. And yes, you do see Krystal fanboys everywhere, but you know what? I go after them too, so don't even bring up that discrimination crap.

By the way, I still haven't seen stats or any other such evidence, still just your word that you know what you're talking about.

[DarthDelgado]

is my favorite character.

Why?

Because he's BADASS!!

[Vy'drach]

Defensive much?

It's as Sam says. It's a touchy subject especially with beloved characters who have very little to no indication of being such. Again, it looks a lot to me like you're imposing your own visualization of the series into fact using strong words like "is" and "definitely" when describing them.

Only, HELLO, StarFox is not exactly a porno, or erotica, or anything that calls for gay/straight discussion at ALL, especially on this site which is supposed to be "family safe." Discussion of Fox/Krystal or Katt/Falco is okay because it HAPPENS IN THE GAMES and because those two are the best we have to pairings that don't spiral off into fanwank. And yes, you do see Krystal fanboys everywhere, but you know what? I go after them too, so don't even bring up that discrimination crap.

By the way, I still haven't seen stats or any other such evidence, still just your word that you know what you're talking about.

Gay/straight/bi/whatever discussions don't necessarily carry sexual intentions, nor does having a sexuality imply having sex, all it means is who you're attracted to, it doesn't need to go further than that.

Also, Dermot has posted some sources his conclusions arrived from, and while I don't think that Wolf's outfit looks like Razor Ramon HG's, or that Leon's sadistic/masochistic speak implies being attracted to Wolf himself, I can see how they could be construed as such.

There is no need to be so aggressive about it, or jump into his face like that.

[Milkyway64]

Gay/straight/bi/whatever discussions don't necessarily carry sexual intentions, nor does having a sexuality imply having sex, all it means is who you're attracted to, it doesn't need to go further than that.

Sexuality. SEXuality. Who you're attracted to does more or less carry sexual intention. It has for every species on earth today.

Also, Dermot has posted some sources his conclusions arrived from, and while I don't think that Wolf's outfit looks like Razor Ramon HG's, or that Leon's sadistic/masochistic speak implies being attracted to Wolf himself, I can see how they could be construed as such.

I did miss some of page three, but looking back I still don't see anything, only a tvtropes link and a few pages on two groups against gays. In any case, it's still speculation even if it can be gathered such. Let me try it;

Krystal was a hooker on her planet due to her clothing and attitude toward Fox in the first 5 minutes of knowing him, not to mention the music that sounds like what I've heard at my favorite club. Up here in the States, I've never seen any girl act like that that ISN'T, so it's plausible.

See, I can do it too, and everyone will jump on ME for that as well even though there's nothing that really DISPROVES it. Leon's spiel was nonsense hinting at his sadism, not his bromance with Wolf, since that'd pretty much make it one of the first, if not only, open hint at controversy in a NINTENDO GAME.

[Dermot]

Only, HELLO, StarFox is not exactly a porno, or erotica, or anything that calls for gay/straight discussion at ALL, especially on this site which is supposed to be "family safe." Discussion of Fox/Krystal or Katt/Falco is okay because it HAPPENS IN THE GAMES and because those two are the best we have to pairings that don't spiral off into fanwank. And yes, you do see Krystal fanboys everywhere, but you know what? I go after them too, so don't even bring up that discrimination crap.

By the way, I still haven't seen stats or any other such evidence, still just your word that you know what you're talking about.

For one thing, Falco and Katt never happened.  That's explained in detail in "Farewell, Beloved Falco".

For another thing, it's certainly family-friendly, for any family that respects gay people.  If someone doesn't like or respect gay people, it is irrelevant.  And be careful - things like equating all gay topics with porno or saying gay people aren't family-friendly, can be very derogatory.  Please refrain from saying that, alright?

[Vy'drach]

Sexuality. SEXuality. Who you're attracted to does more or less carry sexual intention. It has for every species on earth today.

I did miss some of page three, but looking back I still don't see anything, only a tvtropes link and a few pages on two groups against gays. In any case, it's still speculation even if it can be gathered such. Let me try it;

Krystal was a hooker on her planet due to her clothing and attitude toward Fox in the first 5 minutes of knowing him, not to mention the music that sounds like what I've heard at my favorite club. Up here in the States, I've never seen any girl act like that that ISN'T, so it's plausible.

See, I can do it too, and everyone will jump on ME for that as well even though there's nothing that really DISPROVES it. Leon's spiel was nonsense hinting at his sadism, not his bromance with Wolf, since that'd pretty much make it one of the first, if not only, open hint at controversy in a NINTENDO GAME.

The letters S-E-X combined together does not always imply intercourse, sex can also mean gender, and while not used like that in this situation, it still applies. By your logic, Bambi has strong sexual connotations, as you see both his mother and father in the movie, and Bambi falls in love with the doe at the end, and logically, you can assume, "That buck is totally going to/did bang that doe," yet it is a family movie intended for young children, and I hope no one actually watches that movie and thinks that. The same could be said for Lion King, as Simba and Nalaa have a daughter at the end, implying they had sex, but that's not the point nor is it meant to be noticed as such. Attraction =/= sexual intercourse.

Also, Nintendo games can and have had very many controversial things about them. There is the "Giygas fetus", and as Dermot said, Birdo, and many others I am sure, and if you don't know what the two are, here you go.

Giygas:

Birdo:

That is Birdo, a male character. Both Giygas and Birdo were controversial, and both now have a large fanbase because of it.

[Dermot]

That has got to be the nicest picture of Birdo I've ever seen.  It really suits him well. :3 He has a certain drag queen elegance to him.  You know, a really classy drag queen.

[Vy'drach]

That has got to be the nicest picture of Birdo I've ever seen.  It really suits him well. :3 He has a certain drag queen elegance to him.  You know, a really classy drag queen.

What, a Nintendo Ru Paul?