Your take on: Panther Caruso

[Robert Monroe]

No, it was not "all I offered." You obviously failed to notice my listings as to what he had done for Krystal. I was explaining Fox's character developments. As you had asked. Fox has done everything for Krystal since he first saved her life. He would do anything for her. Panther has been reputed by Nintendo (like on his SSBB trophy) to act the way he does around all attractive females. So logically, if another girls showed up in StarFox, Panther would act no differently.

Let's review then! The grand total of things you have listed in Fox' favor is....

-Saved the whole Lylat system not once, not twice, but THREE times (Command excluded).

-He has fought a whole range of challenges and opponents in the air and on the ground.

-He went through the whole Sauria mission to free Krystal from that diamond, then saved her from falling to her death. He gave her a home, trained her as part of the StarFox team and had been there for her since.

So.... an exploit, his reputation, and saving her life on the SIDE of saving Sauria. Giving her a home and training her is nothing special, either, because he did that for Falco and Slippy too. There s nothing special and romantically specific here. Ergo, I fall back on my defense that Fox and Krystal have no CHEMISTRY or relationship beyond Krystal going "teehee" and Fox going "herpaderp".

As for Panther, yes, his trophy says this:

he considers himself quite the ladies' cat and can hardly contain himself from making passes at attractive females, including Krystal, who he's clearly smitten with.

However, his Starfox Command bio ALSO says THIS:

He often falls completely and faithfully in love.

So as I've said before, Panther is more than likely based off "romantic" lovers which were popular in operas and novels in the 19th century, as well as with Shakspeare. He may be a dumbass flirt, but he's also earnestly in love and dedicated.

Your opinion, obviously, and I will certainly respect that. But I completely disagree. My opinion is that they are Nintendo's best pairing yet. In my previous posts in this thread I mentioned what they have done for each other, you seemed to have forgotten it. Do not assume that I do not know about romantic chemistry, because I do. I see the chemistry between them, you do not. We will just have to agree to disagree here.

How are they Nintendo's best couple? How are they EVEN a couple? What is the bond between them? All you have mentioned are things Fox does for Krystal, which is not only a one-way street (Krystal doesn't do diddly for Fox besides half-hearted flirtings), but its things Fox regularly does for all his team-mates (ie save their asses). Fox and Krystal, as I have said, are a very STOCK, very CLICHE, "hero and chick" pairing, whom we are all supposed to assume get together just because of their roles without any form of development or interaction.

I did not say that. What I said was that you could see emotion in their faces when Fox and her met eye to eye. Fox was already interested in her. For Krystal, it looked like there was some affection there, when I saw it. Fox learned Krystal's name from Kyte, the Cloudrunner Krystal rode at the beginning of the game. As for Krystal, I believe she either could have gotten Fox's name from the liberated Sharpclaw who were all around Krazoa Palace, or from Peppy when she contacted him.

Ok, I will agree there was emotion in the scene, but it was hardly anything romantic, especially becasuse it was followed by Krystal and Fox's "Give me that!" "Well thanks for nothing!". It was again, mere infatuation. That is it. Fox thinks shes hot, she thinks Fox is hot, and then they remember they need to be fighting with the giant floating Krazoa head.

Also, the whole scene with Kyte is bollocks. Kyte somehow associates Fox with Krystal ("Aren't you a friend of Krystal's?"), TO WHICH FOX REPLIES "How do you know Krystal?!". HOW DOES FOX KNOW KRYSTAL? All he knows is there is a blue chick stuck in a cystaline prison cell! If anything he should ask who Krystal is, and that scene would have been a lot better. As for Krystal knowing Fox's name, this is more plausible, but it still comes out of ass-end nowhere, and leaves me wondering how Peppy learned Krystal's name.

You don't believe in love at first sight. Again, your opinion. We can't agree on this. A relationship can go two ways, good or bad. It depends on what the 2 feel about each other in my view.

The makers have said that the endings to the game are non-cannon. And therefore most of Command's story is not cannon. So I believe there is still hope.

Again we will just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion it is kind of like having deleted scenes to a movie. How they sometimes fill in storyline gaps. That is how I feel about it.

I have the SCIENCE to not beleive in something as completely absurd as "love at first sight". Love at first sight is a literary trope, and very poor one at that. Its an asspull excuse to explain why two people are in love without having to bother setting up a developed relationship and bloom that into a romance. Relationships built on weak foundations are almost garunteed to collapse, you know, like alot of high school dates end up. This isn't about opinion, because you can beleive anything you want about love at first sight until the cows come home, the facts will still be saying how much of an unhealthy basis for a relationship that is.

No, just the endings are non-canon. They have said nothing about the events, and that aside, I was talking about the events that set UP Command. You know, the whole Fox dumping Krystal and having his life totally ruined thing. The events of Command itself, discounting endings, just make it that much worse.

And CUT AUDIO is not the same thing as a deleted scene. Deleted scenes are actually FILMED, and were removed for time constraints. Cut audio are just recorded lines they decided not to fit into the story. Besides all that, not ALL deleted scenes add to a story "behind the scenes", because they are often contradictory to the final product. Cut audio is non-canon. The end.

The hints given in Assault (especially during the Sauria mission) are reasonable enough evidence in my view to give a general idea of where the 2 of them were headed with their relationship. In the Sauria mission briefing when Krystal flirts with him Fox was a little awkward about it, probably because it just came out of the blue. The reason Fox was like that was because in the after-mission cut scene was because he was asked about his and Krystal's plans, which was a personal matter.

This just supports my view, I hope you know this. Like I said, Assault hints at them possibly GOING TO HAVE a relationship, but they are not actually IN one. Krystal flirts, Fox acts like a derp, Tricky is a nosy twat, Fox acts like a bigger derp, the end.

What misinterpretation. How is saving her life repeatedly and caring for her safety exploits. He has been there for her, given her a home and family, and backs her up as she would him. Did you not read my first post in this thread. The only real thing he did in Assault with Krystal was offer complementary remarks to her. He did not make any real attempts. He even possibly knows about her relation to Fox. You apparently missed how Fox made protective remarks to Krystal during some missions like after he saves her from Aparoid fighters. During the Meteo mission when Krystal is being chased by fighters and Krystal calls for his help, he shouts, "Kr-Krystal!" and he then goes to save her. Or during the Aparoid City mission when Krystal expresses her revulsion at how the Aparoids form inside the base and she says that it makes her feel like she is, "...going to fade away." Fox, sounding very concerned shouts, "Krystal!!!" To which Krystal replies that he is protected by all of his "warm feelings." Does this really come off as cardboard to you?

An exploit is an acheivement, a feat. Fox saves Krystal's life and cares for her safety like he does for everyone else on the team. Everything you mention here can be used to support a pairing between Fox and anyone else on his crew. Krystal's comments about "warm feelings" can also be interperted as the entire team's love for her protecting her, because the team is basically nakama anyway So again, all your reasons to "support" Krystal and Fox can just as easily be use to support Fox and Slippy, or Fox and Falco. So yeah.

Oh I have no doubt at all that  is here to stay. And whose to say that Nintendo won't put in some other female character that Panther would become attracted to. As I said before, Nintendo has reputed Panther to be the way he is around any attractive females. I do however feel that Nintendo should take the next major step with Fox and Krystal's relation though.

I presented what I could to support it. It was only what was implied to me during the game. You don't have to believe it.

Except that contradicts what has already happened. Fox and Krystal DID get together in between Command and Assault, however they also fell APART by the time Command actually starts.

And you just dug your own grave there. IMPLIED. IMPLICATIONS. Give me hard EVIDENCE Fox and Krystal are a pair. You can't, because 1: in SFA they don't even know each other 2: in Assault, Krystal flirts and Fox derps, and 3: in Command, they already got together and subsequently broke up. So, the only time they could have officially been together is inbetween Assault and Command, aaaaaaand its already gone down the shitter.

Oh dear. Comparing that picture with the scene in Adventures is like comparing apples and oranges. That is an American cartoon, while SF is a Japanese VG. Fox's expression and actions are far more akin to one who has seen something like Krystal for the first time. You did not see him grinning stupidly at Krystal, or making perverted comments, or whooping like an idiot. Again, Fox is not the furries and nor are they him. Nor is he a real person like those "men" you are talking about. He is a fictional character for storytelling.

Actually, SFA was a British-made video game. Rareware and all.

Secondly, Fox's reaction to Krystal the first time was basically "durrhurr she's beautiful", which is the same reaction alot of men have when they see an attractive woman. Big damn deal if Fox didn't woop and hollar, not EVERY man who finds a woman attractive is going to do that. The bottom line of the matter is Fox did not fall under some MAGICAL LOVE BEAM when he first saw Krystal, he just acted like most males would and gawked like a dork. And excusing him as a fictional character is a bullshit argument, period.

Fox gets to know her over time. Yes the team is his family, it has been for years and will continue to. But it is possible to have a romantic and family relation with someone at the same time. And we will just have to agree to disagree about Fox's motivations for Krystal in Adventures and Assault. It seems that we will never agree.

Or it is possible that there is not romantic feelings here because Fox has not known Krystal NEARLY as long as anyone else on his team. By all rights of this logic, Fox should be in love with damn Slippy because he's known him the longest. There is no way Fox saved Krystal because he loved her in Adventures. If he did, you would be implying he would NOT have saved her if he DIDN'T love her, which is total foolishness.

Ok, so you do know what it is. Not to sound rude or degrading or insulting to you or anything, but this is a video game discussion. And we can offer our interpretations, especially in terms of story.

The planet was actually falling apart. The Cornerian government only speculated that it would explode. The residents of the planet Sauria say it is being pulled apart. Again our views just differ. To me Fox was in love, to you he is not. And that last sentence was a little immature.

I have already addressed this in this very post. And this is a discussion forum, so speculation is allowed and encouraged.

Video game, movie, novel, its all stuff that needs writing, and I am the writing critic. And as such a critic I find love at first sight nonsense to be balmy, and at best infatuation, at worse sexual lust.

And the specifics of the planet's DOOM doesn't matter BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO DIE IN SOME FORM. Explode, fall apart, disitigrate, or hurl itslef into the nearest star becaue of the offset of mass, whatever. Bringing up this entire point is irrelevent, because MY point still stands that Fox saves people even when he has bigger fish to fry because he is (supposedly) a compassionate hero. And I really don't care if you find my comment immature, much like I'm sure you don't care that I find your constant censorship of my profanity to be immature.

Speculation is good, however you were not sharing your speculation as such, but rather as fact, using such lovely phrases as calling me "ignorant" and "oblivious" to the games events, like this is some grand truth that the series is had that only a total idiot would not notice. However, you have since changed you tune to that of speculation and opinion, for reasons I can only BEGIN to wonder about. And it doesn't change the fact your speculation makes very little sense.

Again, this is free to interpretation by the fans. You have yours and I have mine. And they are totally different. I see the FxK romance (A.K.A. love) here, you don't. It is alright.

No, I did not say that at all. Lovers can be friends as well. I say that there is plenty to support it. But as I said, a fan can choose to see it any way he or she wishes it. Panther and Krystal are not on the same level. Their methods are different. Fox is not like what you say at all. So he is a little awkward, what is the big deal. Not every developing romance is completely easy. They run into a few bumps in the road along the way. It is no reason to call Fox a bungler IMO.

Once again. I apologize to fellow members of this site for the space of my post. I had to get all that out. It is my absolutely last debate with Robert on this matter.

And Robert, if you wish to talk some more about it with me, do it over a PM. But really, it is quite clear now that none of us will ever change our opinions. We have both obviously made up our minds. We would really get nowhere if we went on.

So at this point, it would be better for us to just agree to disagree and just move on.

Yes yes yes, we will all be speculating until the end of time. I will happen to be basing my speculation on common sense, psychology, and science. If you want to beleive that people can fall in love by fairy magc, or love at first sight, without any form of relationship before hand, be my geust.

You said and I quote:

But there is more than one type of love, there is family love. Fox has a brotherly relationship with Falco and Slippy, and he has a father to son love with Peppy. There is the Love a male and female have for each other. Fox has this with Krystal, romantic love.

You specify male and female as its own love. This is balmy for a few reasons. 1: males and females can love each other without being romantic and 2: homosexual love can be romantic. Romantic love is just that, romantic, and is not paticularly bound by genders.

Krystal and Panther ARE on the same level. They both openly flirt with someone they have affections for. Fox returns Krystal's flirting with derpy remarks, Krystal returns Panther's flirting with.... various responses depending on the game. Yeah, Fox is a bungler. You are acting like I make this out to be a bad thing. I am merely saying there is no romance between the two, just some flirting and some bungling.

And if you so see fit to make this your last post for me, then be my geust. If you have more for me, PM me. I don't really care.

And the truly hilarious thing is you all probably think I did this entirely out of Panther/Krystal support.

Also, let us not forget that Brawl's Krystal trophy states that Krystal and Fox become romantically involved, and while Brawl itself is not canon, it does go hand-in-hand with other occurences.

And note, Krystal is a telepath, she likely can feel other's true intentions, and I imagine Panther is nothing but amorous, looking to add another notch (or even his first) to his headboard, while Fox truly cares, is usually compassionate, and is loyal to those he cares for.

Krystal's Brawl trophy says this:

A member of the Star Fox team welcomed in Star Fox Adventures after the team met her on planet Sauria when responding to a distress signal. Krystal is capable of telepathy and is a valuable member in combat. After becoming romantically involved with Fox, their relationship gets very rocky in Star Fox command.

AFTER being romantically involved. Which they were, in between Assault and Command, and now they aren't.

And your imagining on Panther contrdicts his Command bio, where it says he falls faithfully in love. He is not some playboy looking for a chick to bone. If he wanted that, I'm sure there are plenty of space-hookers out there.

No, he is not.

At the very beggining of Command,

it is stated that 'Star Wolf continues

to do dirty deeds' or like that.

'Dirty deeds' can NOT be good.

So, good people can't do bad things? How black and white of you. Panther is a good man who breaks the law. That's it. Morality and law are not bound to each other.

[Guest DRL]

So, good people can't do bad things? How black and white of you. Panther is a good man who breaks the law. That's it. Morality and law are not bound to each other.

BUT, from a D&D perspective,

'Chaotic good' is one thing - They do bad

things, but for the good of all.

'Chaotic neutral' is another thing - as you see,

not 'evil' - but the difference is that he does things

that benefit his own good.

That is why I pointed out the differences between him

and Zorro, because, where Zorro breaks the law to

help others, Panther breaks it to help his own goals.

What I mean is, just because you are well-mannered,

or gentleman, that does not makes you 'good'.

[Robert Monroe]

BUT, from a D&D perspective,

'Chaotic good' is one thing - They do bad

things, but for the good of all.

'Chaotic neutral' is another thing - as you see,

not 'evil' - but the difference is that he does things

that benefit his own good.

That is why I pointed out the differences between him

and Zorro, because, where Zorro breaks the law to

help others, Panther breaks it to help his own goals.

What I mean is, just because you are well-mannered,

or gentleman, that does not makes you 'good'.

Morality is subjective. Panther does not aspire to hurt others, and is not a heartless fiend. Sure, he's no do-gooder, and he's not a vigilante like Zorro, but he's not BAD. He's probably comparable to Lupin III, but with better manners.

[Guest FoXXX]

Yeah, because you are... You... I am sure you

and Panther could go on a saturday night party and

watch yiffy videos togheter... 

Sounds like fun :D

[Guest DRL]

Morality is subjective. Panther does not aspire to hurt others, and is not a heartless fiend. Sure, he's no do-gooder, and he's not a vigilante like Zorro, but he's not BAD. He's probably comparable to Lupin III, but with better manners.

Could be. I prefer to refer

to him as 'chaotic neutral',

from the D&D perspective.

I think it fits Panther.

Sounds like fun

... Heck, I guess we can

go to the chat... Let's see how

that turns out. *rolls his eyes*

I bet it would end mostly like

I saying [shadow=white,left]FIRE-THE-HYPER-CANNON![/shadow]...

[Robert Monroe]

Could be. I prefer to refer

to him as 'chaotic neutral',

from the D&D perspective.

I think it fits Panther.

Chaotic neutral does suit Panther well. I agree with this.

[Ris Grestar]

No, he is not.

At the very beggining of Command,

it is stated that 'Star Wolf continues

to do dirty deeds' or like that.

'Dirty deeds' can NOT be good.

+

No, actually, I'm pretty sure he's a good guy.  I mean, I'd hang with him^^

[Thu'um]

i would not. he is not bad buttt.... well he ain't my kinda mate. not falco either probbly fox. if i had to join a team it would be star fox

[Scott7]

He's perverted, but i have to say i actually favored using that ship of his in command... but i can't help but wonder how this got into starwolf in the first place. Did he just get randomly picked from the crowd in the space hidout after Pigma's second betrayal for a team?

But i guess if he would get his mind off Krystal for 5 seconds he might actually prove himself worthy of his position in the team. I might like him in the next game for all i know.

[Thu'um]

he is not bad. but he should never end up with krystal. whooo lleeee wins

  :D

[Guest DRL]

I mean, I'd hang with him^^

Thanks for clarifying.

That is fine, it is just that...

Your perspective and mine's are

different  ...

[Ris Grestar]

Thanks for clarifying.

That is fine, it is just that...

Your perspective and mine's are

different  ...

And so they shall be.

[Robert Monroe]

He's perverted, but i have to say i actually favored using that ship of his in command... but i can't help but wonder how this got into starwolf in the first place. Did he just get randomly picked from the crowd in the space hidout after Pigma's second betrayal for a team?

But i guess if he would get his mind off Krystal for 5 seconds he might actually prove himself worthy of his position in the team. I might like him in the next game for all i know.

He already has. Every bio of his mentions he's as much of an extraordinary pilot as he is a show off who embarasses those around him.

[rainfyre66]

I, for one, am completely indifferent to the Fox/Krystal pairing, so therefore, Panther's involvement and flirtations with Krystal are a complete moot point to me. That being said, I like Panther okay. He is essentially a comic relief villain with his whole Latin Lothario facade, which is a nice change of pace for the Star Wolf team.

That talking in third person crap has gotta go though.

[Thu'um]

o agree :D

[Guest Mr. Mario]

Panther is like Arnold howeveryoupronouncehislastname.

[Guest DRL]

Panther is like Arnold howeveryoupronouncehislastname.

Schwarzenegger...

...But if that would be true, then I would had already

seen the Pantheneitor. :trollface:

[Geo Stelar]

If I see Panther stalk Krystal again...

I'd call the Panth-exterminators

[Thu'um]

yes, he needs too stay away from krystal

[SlyJedi]

Yes, he needs too stay away from Krystal.

Amen. As I said in my first post in this thread, somehow resurrecting Miyu and pairing her with Panther in the next game would put this issue to rest once and for all.

[Samantha Weltzin]

You guys are gonna turn me into a Panther X Krystal fan out of sheer spite.  :x

[Guest DRL]

I like Miyu + Panther.

[SlyJedi]

I like Miyu + Panther.

You and me, both, DRL. And I also like Bill + Fay too.

[Thu'um]

any way people hate panther even thought he doesn't have krystal.

[Guest DRL]

any way people hate panther even thought he doesn't have krystal.

As I stated before, I do not hate him.

In personall preference I do not like

Panther + Krystal. But Panther + Miyu is a great idea to me... and...

You and me, both, DRL. And I also like Bill + Fay too.

AWEC00L! I allways tought Bill + Fay was

a cool idea! + :D