Unions

[Guest Julius Quasar]

If this topic is too political or has to get locked, I understand.  I am NOT trying to be overly political, or to offend or upset anyone, be they Union or have Union relatives.  My sister herself is with Screen Actor's Guild.

anyways...Unions....Teamsters....Guilds...

Whatever they're known as, they've been around a while now...as guilds, in old Europe...in America, to protect the working Average Joe from exploitation from abusive executives or administrations of a company...

But...

I think Unions are starting to outlive their usefulness.

When you think about it, unions are responsible for many economic collapses.  The Auto Industry, the Railroad Industry, the Longshoreman/Dock Workers of Long Beach, CA.  Those unions are partly at fault for those industries collapsing.

The Service Employees International Union and others like it tried to destroy CA state's property tax cap, so they could have bigger salaries....there also were Unions who collaborated with Organized Crime syndicates...I find those shameful activities to be an insult everything the original Union member workers of the US had suffered through, prior to unionization.

And those union people are the nepotistic, unless you save the life of a teamster, or be the child of one, you can't get ANY Union job (especially out here in CA).

I'll admit, though, not ALL the economic woes are the fault of Unions.  Corporate Execs sent EVERYTHING overseas, and what they couldn't send overseas, they filled lots of those positions with cheap illegal immigrants they could exploit as indentured servants. 

Unions in the US were meant to stop abusive bosses from forcing workers to put in 18 hour workdays, for 7 days a week, for only 10 cents an hour, in brutal, dangerous conditions, with no breaks, or benefits.  It prevented mean employers from "walling employees up in the abandoned coke oven" for "insubordination". 

That does still happen in today's American workplaces (except for walling someone up in an abandoned coke oven), but mainly those people being mistreated either can't speak up to to a language barrier, or won't speak up out of fear of deportation.  And even some US citizens subjected to these abuses don't speak out unless pushed to the edge, because they need to keep the job in this Economic Dark Age we live in.

I don't hate ALL Unions, but I think they're coasting on fumes.  They need to be careful.  Many of them became corrupt, shiftless, and went too far.  Foreign competition, the global market, outsourcing and in-sourcing are eating them and their jobs alive.  Also, many Unions now are led by incompetent bunglers.  My sister is a member of SAG, and the leaders of that Union, they're totally screwing things up for the rest of that Union.  The Writer's Guild of America faced that same problem not too long ago.

Over in one area of Orange County, CA., a teacher's Union went on strike because the teachers were mad because they had to take a small permanent pay cut, in their 6 figure salaries (they even admitted to making 6 figures in that district).  That same school district pays substitute teachers a good $40,000+ per year.  What were the full time teachers THINKING, going on strike like that?  What was their union rep thinking!? 

Things are getting dangerous for Unions, they better watch out....not all of them are bad, but the bad ones could ruin things for all unions eventually.  Also, a lousy Union rep could ruin things for any/all unions as well.

["User"]

Well said.

Unions get paid way too much money and they are one of the big reasons why the Big 3 Detroit automakers (GM, Ford, and Chrysler) went down the crapper during the recession.  You know how many people out there would GLADLY take $20-35 per hour paying jobs rather than what Big 3 union workers make (much more than $35) an hour?

Japanese automakers in North America for example still pay their unions well, but on average less than what the Big 3 pay their unions.  Hence one big reason why they are more competitive.  During the recession I find it hilarious hearing all the pro-union voices speaking out against all these cuts that are necessary for union jobs to survive.

I mean seriously...it's not that hard.  You have a choice, either get paid like...$25-30 an hour instead of $40 or more, or you lose your job.  Sadly, union leaders don't seem to get the point and appear to rather have workers lose their jobs than to accept cuts where they are still making a shit load of money.  On a somewhat related note the company executives insist on getting bailouts from the government due to their own stupidity and mismanagement.  I'm not surprised if other big companies, like airlines for example, demand getting bailout money because the airline industry itself is going through terrible times right now and mergers are on the horizon (United's merger with Continental anyone?)

For most of 2008 I got annoyed when I picked up the newspaper and I saw articles like this every day.  That's why I'm never voting any far left winged party.

That is the end of my rant, for now  :P

[Guest Julius Quasar]

^ Thanks!  Glad to see that what I said is not just my imagination or opinion....  :friends:

[Sabre]

I don't know what you're talking about, but when you started talking, all I thought of was.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

:lolhyst:

Weeeelllll, that's not what I was talkin' about, but very funny...I never did see that flick, tho...I heard it got really bad reviews.

Back OT,

if the Unions don't clean up their acts, they won't have much of a future....even the good, non corrupt unions will end up going down...as the old aphorism goes, "One bad apple can ruin the whole barrel...".

[Sabre]

Weeeelllll, that's not what I was talkin' about, but very funny...I never did see that flick, tho...I heard it got really bad reviews.

Back OT,

if the Unions don't clean up their acts, they won't have much of a future....even the good, non corrupt unions will end up going down...as the old aphorism goes, "One bad apple can ruin the whole barrel...".

It's awesome, but I'll let you back on the thread.

[Asper Sarnoff]

Well said Julius.

And by you as well TSA. :yes:

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Well said Julius.

And by you as well TSA.

Thanks!

Unions have this "Quick!  Keep the new people out of the tree house!  Pull up the rope ladder" mentality

in their hiring practices, and that's partly why I lost my respect for them (being turned down for a job for/with them many times).

[DZComposer]

When times are bad, don't blame management. Oh no. It's always the fault of the workers.

We're quick to say that union workers make too much money, yet the CEOs and other executives have had skyrocketing compensation over the past 30 years. And it's gotten to the point where you can royally fuck up and drive the company into the ground and still get a seven-figure bonus at the end of the fiscal year, while that union line worker has to give up benefits and raises just to keep his job.

Also, there was a massive move to invest in exotic financial products like naked CDO's that are disasters waiting to happen. Most of the waste in our economy is at the top, not the bottom.

The average wage for a union auto worker is between $20 and $30 per hour. You see claims up to $70, but many of those high numbers are done using funny math with benefit payments like dividing all healthcare costs by the number of current employees even though the payouts also go to pension holders.

One thing that would significantly cut down labor costs in this country is single-payer healthcare. But, no. That's "Socialism" and we can't do that despite the fact that it makes us less competitive with the rest of the developed world. Hell, even China is looking at Single-Payer healthcare now.

["User"]

When times are bad, don't blame management. Oh no. It's always the fault of the workers.

We're quick to say that union workers make too much money, yet the CEOs and other executives have had skyrocketing compensation over the past 30 years. And it's gotten to the point where you can royally -F-Bomb- up and drive the company into the ground and still get a seven-figure bonus at the end of the fiscal year, while that union line worker has to give up benefits and raises just to keep his job.

Also, there was a massive move to invest in exotic financial products like naked CDO's that are disasters waiting to happen. Most of the waste in our economy is at the top, not the bottom.

The average wage for a union auto worker is between $20 and $30 per hour. You see claims up to $70, but many of those high numbers are done using funny math with benefit payments like dividing all healthcare costs by the number of current employees even though the payouts also go to pension holders.

One thing that would significantly cut down labor costs in this country is single-payer healthcare. But, no. That's "Socialism" and we can't do that despite the fact that it makes us less competitive with the rest of the developed world. Hell, even China is looking at Single-Payer healthcare now.

You're correct in all those points.

Also, speaking of health care, isn't the U.S. the last major developed country to adopt some form of universal government paid health care for all it's workers?  I mean, this is the 21st century...

[Asper Sarnoff]

DZ's point are fair. The guys on top have done a lot of bad stuff as well, and added together, all these points add up.

And regarding the point about Governemental healthcare, there's this Danish girl on DA who make comics about the various countries in the world, based on their respective stereotypes. Good fun to read.

This one was made some time ago.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs30/f/2009/239/7/b/Healthcare_by_humon.jpg

And this more recently.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/082/6/f/The_End_of_America_by_humon.jpg

We've been having this for ages, and while it's awfully expensive as far at taxes go, it does work.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

When times are bad, don't blame management. Oh no. It's always the fault of the workers.

We're quick to say that union workers make too much money, yet the CEOs and other executives have had skyrocketing compensation over the past 30 years. And it's gotten to the point where you can royally -F-Bomb- up and drive the company into the ground and still get a seven-figure bonus at the end of the fiscal year, while that union line worker has to give up benefits and raises just to keep his job.

Also, there was a massive move to invest in exotic financial products like naked CDO's that are disasters waiting to happen. Most of the waste in our economy is at the top, not the bottom.

The average wage for a union auto worker is between $20 and $30 per hour. You see claims up to $70, but many of those high numbers are done using funny math with benefit payments like dividing all healthcare costs by the number of current employees even though the payouts also go to pension holders.

One thing that would significantly cut down labor costs in this country is single-payer healthcare. But, no. That's "Socialism" and we can't do that despite the fact that it makes us less competitive with the rest of the developed world. Hell, even China is looking at Single-Payer healthcare now.

Whoa...easy...I'm not trying to pick on unions...I agree, lotsa times there are also the Greedy Executives who are causing the problems...hell, it was those damn greedy executives that inspired the creation of [American] Labor Unions in the first place....

As for healthcare, yeah, we gotta improve that...In Japan, you pay for doctor and health services when you're healthy and uninjured....but when you are sick and/or injured, you don't have to pay for doctor and health services.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Sorry for the dredge, but I remembered reading about a strike settled by Greyhound Unions after "someone" hired goons to hang out on highway overpasses and peppering the traveling Greyhound buses with gunfire.

*shakes head*

[DZComposer]

Meh... Most "Union Thug" stories are exaggerated. Yes, unions can get corrupted like any other organization, but that is no reason to say that workers should not be able to organize.

Over the past 40 years, Unions have declined in the US. Also over that time period, mean income has also declined when looked at in inflation-adjusted dollars while productivity has skyrocketed. Unions give workers the chance to stand up for themselves when the only other recourse would be to quit. When you have bills to bay, quitting is not an option.

A capitalist economy is dependent on greed to function, but without checks on that greed, the economy would destroy itself. Unions provide a check on that. Do unions sometimes ask for too much? Yes. But that is why there is a negotiation process.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Take it easy, DZ, I'm not disagreeing with you, I got NO problems with unions.  I'm just saying, though, is that they may be losing ground (heck, aren't all employees?), especially in this economic dark age we're all living in.  But, as you said, it's greed at the top, and I agree.

Wal Mart, and all those other corporate pig Nazis, are extremely anti union, they won't even let employees talk to each other, even off the clock, off premises, for fear of "union formation".

["User"]

Union workers still get paid far more than the average worker in the private sector.  There are many people who would do relatively unskilled union jobs (although the company may provide training when hired) for half the amount of money some of these people are making. 

It pisses me, and the general public off to see unionized workers demanding a certain amount of money or they will quit when they already make, as I've already stated before, $70 or so an hour after benefits.  Unionized workers should consider themselves luck they make so much money as it when other people are barely making $15 an hour with much lower quality benefits >_>

And yes I know the big wigs at the corporations get exuberant salaries, but like other major professional sports you need to be able to pay those people the big bucks so they won't go to another company that is willing to pay people who are damn good at leading companies.  In the case of the Big Three though I'll say they failed at their leadership, but that is an exception.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Union workers still get paid far more than the average worker in the private sector.  There are many people who would do relatively unskilled union jobs (although the company may provide training when hired) for half the amount of money some of these people are making. 

It pisses me, and the general public off to see unionized workers demanding a certain amount of money or they will quit when they already make, as I've already stated before, $70 or so an hour after benefits.  Unionized workers should consider themselves luck they make so much money as it when other people are barely making $15 an hour with much lower quality benefits >_>

And yes I know the big wigs at the corporations get exuberant salaries, but like other major professional sports you need to be able to pay those people the big bucks so they won't go to another company that is willing to pay people who are damn good at leading companies.  In the case of the Big Three though I'll say they failed at their leadership, but that is an exception.

^ This!

Pro sports players' salaries are especially disgusting.