Firearms.

[Vy'drach]

I likely wouldn't be able to join the military because of a health condition, I get something called "heat exhaustion," even when it's not warm out. Basically, too much physical exertion and I start throwing up, my muscles spasm, and I get so physically weak I can barely walk by myself, let alone run. But I also wouldn't join today's military if my life depended on it, really. Not like it used to be when my dad was in it. He does not like today's military, and that means a lot to me.

Ahhh my dad, Drill Sergeant at Ft. Knox, KY, nicknamed the "Son of Satan" by his men, most trainee abuse charges (but none of em went through, he was just REALLY strict and REALLY scary). He literally wrote the book for the M240 S.A.W. (well, more like the training and procedures).

But that's neither here nor there, this topic is about Firearms.

I would love to get my hands on an AK-103 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-104) Wiki mis-typed the address. Anyway, the AK-103 is a modern AK-47, with increased accuracy, and is still chambered for the 7.62x39mm round, not the 5.56x45mm round that I dislike. Wouldn't mind the AK-105 either, which is 5.45x39mm, which is the new standard Russian round, and from what I've heard, outperforms the 5.56 for some reason.

[Vy'drach]

Sorry for double post, but found this uploader on youtube who has gun porn (not really, but all the videos have music like that, and beautiful shots of the guns). Unfortunately, the narration is in Japanese, but it still shows the guns in action beautifully, with many high-speed camera shots.

PSG-1, my favourite gun and thus favourite video.

Very rarely shown gun, the German H&K G11 Caseless Rifle, with a cyclic rate of 2000 RPMs on three round burst (Shame they didn't show it).

FN Herstal P90 (Love how it shows the magazine loading, magazine feeding, and downward ejection).

Another rarely shown gun, the Finnish Jatimatic (Watch how little lift the gun has, most of the recoil is straight back).

And another one of my favourites, the "British" L85 A1 (Germany really designed it mostly, and manufactures it now, so to me it is a German gun. H&K forever!).

I want to own all these guns... and the guy has more guns, but I don't like some of them (the Uzi and Micro-Uzi especially, but the M16 is up there as well on my list of "break on sight" guns).

[CrypticQuery]

:shock: *drools* :P

[Vy'drach]

If I remember right, it's about two months before it's considered a dredge, correct?

Anyhow, got something to discuss about firearms.

I love the AN-94.

Granted it's still not my most favourite gun, but it is certainly up there. It is an ingeniously designed weapon, with a two-round burst function with a cyclic rate of 1800 RPMs. It can put two rounds through the same hole at 100 yards.

I mean really, 1800 RPMs, all thanks to the "blowback shifted pulse" system that no one except the creators knows how it works. Only thing similar to this is the H&K G11 rifle, and that achieves a three-round burst with a cyclic rate of 2200 RPMs by completely removing the extraction and ejection phase of operation of the gun, by firing caseless ammo, which is just the bullet embedded into solid propellant.

But not the AN-94, it fires the standard Russian 5.45x39mm ammo, which has been known to outperform the 5.56x45mm rounds that most countries use.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

AWESOME!

You know, in Russia, it's legal for you to buy a gun as a civilian, first you must only have a smoothbore shotgun, and/or a gas gun, and/or a revolver that shoots rubber bullets.  After 5 years of having it/those with NO accidents or misuse, the Russian Gov't will let you own a rifle or a carbine.

Eventually they'll even let you have a pistol, so I've heard...

I'd like to have a Sig Sauer P229, 9mm parabellum, and a Glock 23 or Glock 27 (.40 caliber)

[Arashikage]

My least favourite guns. (Not gonna link to the wiki on these, as I do not wish to see them)

1- the Uzi, such an inaccurate gun, one of a few guns in the world made more accurate by the addition of a suppressor, designed for people that can't shoot and want to spray, I'd much rather use a Mac 10 or Mac 11, same basic concept, only more accurate, and a higher fire rate

2- the M16 and any and all variants of it (Except for the H&K M416, as that uses a completely different operating system, fixing our problems for us), this is such a horrible weapon system, jams at the drop of a hat, and only saving grace is that the original M16 had a higher fire rate than most assault rifles (900 RPMs where most are 600), and the bullet, by accident of the design, tumbles end over end when it hits a body, causing more damage than a standard 5.56x45 round. Which it is now illegal to design a gun to do.

3- the Desert Eagle, such an over-rated hand gun. Holds too few rounds, it isn't much more powerful than the .45 ACP if you get it in the .50 AE (and the recoil is too extreme for the difference in power, the .45 puts the person down just the same with nowhere near the same shock to you physically), and just... isn't a good gun in my opinion.

4- the Galil, nothing but a cheap Israeli knock off of the AK, and a butt ugly one at that.

5- the Sten Gun, just a failed attempt at achieving what the Germans did with the MP-40, a cheap, mass produceable submachine gun. The Sten wears out so quickly that if you aren't careful and don't replace it, it can blow up in your face, and the magazine worked horribly (granted the MP-38 and MP-40 magazines weren't known for reliability, but they atleast were used in a gun that was in itself sound, reliable, and resilient. The Sten could easily blow up in your face), what with not being able to hold the intended ammo amount. Also, the Sten would shoot if it was knocked around too hard, which could lead to self injury/death, or the injury/death of those around you.

I disagree with your reasoning here for most of these weapons and fail to see why they are so hated

1- the Uzi, Sure it's inaccurate, but it's not going to be used for anything other than close quarters.  For close quarters, it's devastating.  And if it's chambered for .45 ACP, It can pretty much rip a person to shreds.  Lets just say you are using the Uzi in close quarters, you turn a corner, and there's a guy who has an AK47 about fifteen feet away, you pull the trigger and unload into him.  It's kinda hard to miss, and that's what it was designed for, close quarters.  Nobody is going to want to snipe with the Uzi. 

I agree that the MAC 11 is way better, but I respect the Uzi

2- the M16, you only specify one reason here.  You say it jams too much.  But that was mostly with the M16A1 variant.  It got much better when the A4 came along, Personally, I'm an AK47 guy, but I fail to see how this one factor can make it so terrible, especially when you listed two good reasons for the bad reason.  The whole deal where they made it 3 round burst rather than full auto with the A4 variant made it jam less because you aren't constantly firing a stream of bullets. 

3- the Desert Eagle, What the F*** is wrong with it?  It's basically the modern variant of the .44 Magnum.  I didn't see you bashing on the .44.  The Desert Eagle is not just a .50 caliber pistol, it can be chambered for five different sizes.  .50 Action Express, .440 Cor-Bon, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .357 Magnum.  It's not completely overrated, it's just misunderstood.  The media may have highly popularized this firearm, but that's not to say it isn't effective.  The whole deal of striking fear into the hearts of the enemy would come into effect there. 

4- the Galil, You can't just say it's bad because it's a knockoff of the AK47.  And what do looks matter?  It kills people right?  That's all that matters, especially because it's slightly more accurate, has less recoil, and has a bullet that's smaller, but just as effective as it's 7.62 counterpart

5- the Sten, well, they can't all be winners.  I can see what my cousin has to say.... I'll do that in a few hours

[Vy'drach]

I disagree with your reasoning here for most of these weapons and fail to see why they are so hated

1- the Uzi, Sure it's inaccurate, but it's not going to be used for anything other than close quarters.  For close quarters, it's devastating.  And if it's chambered for .45 ACP, It can pretty much rip a person to shreds.  Lets just say you are using the Uzi in close quarters, you turn a corner, and there's a guy who has an AK47 about fifteen feet away, you pull the trigger and unload into him.  It's kinda hard to miss, and that's what it was designed for, close quarters.  Nobody is going to want to snipe with the Uzi. 

I agree that the MAC 11 is way better, but I respect the Uzi

There is no .45 ACP IMI Uzi, or if it is, it's like the .45 Luger, and is a rarity (The only surviving original .45 Luger is worth over $1,000,000) and back when it was designed it "may" of been a good weapon, but it is seriously outclassed now-a-days. Even in close range it is inaccurate, it is one of a handful of guns that have higher first round accuracy with a sound suppressor. It is a poor design made entirely to spray down hallways and hoping to hit your target.

The new M16 variants are still very prone to jamming, including the M4 and such. By M16, I mean the entire family, including the M4's and AR-15's. They are all prone to jamming, and the M4 prone to exploding in your face, been documented and researched. And restricting the M16 to three-round burst made it all but useless. The original M16 had one saving grace, a blistering fire rate for an assault rifle, at 900+ RPMs. Taking that away made it nearly useless, especially in urban environments, because, as my dad (who used the M16 extensively) said, if you're going to assault an urban environment, you need fully-automatic weapons. Three round burst will just get more of your people killed taking it. M16/M4/AR-15 is still a piece-of-shit.

The Desert Eagle is an IMI piece of shit, also. It is not the modern form of the .44, as that is a round, not a gun. The Desert Eagle can also come in 9mm. But using the more powerful rounds, its recoil is too extreme for its performance. Only real reason people use it is it looks sort of intimidating thanks to Hollywood action films, and that is where it became popular. People that don't really know about guns get the things, and expect to be able to shoot a tank to death. I hate people like that, and I hate the gun because of that. I don't have a problem with people not knowing about guns, but when people start playing Call of Duty or seeing Hollywood movies and start acting like they know what real guns are capable of, it starts to get annoying. Oh, and the .50 AE has about the same recoil as the .500 Magnum, when the .50 AE barely outclasses the .45 in power.

The Galil is just a cheap imitation of a great gun, and they made it aesthetically unpleasant. I can dislike a gun for that reason. I didn't say it was "bad," I said I didn't like it. And if you notice, two other of the guns I listed are made by IMI.

And the Sten is a bad gun, always was a bad gun, the people who used it said it was a bad gun, just a cheap attempt at copying what Germany was doing, making decent, mass-produced weapon, cheaply.

[Hatsworth III]

the guns i want:

1- minigun

2- magnum revolver

3- SCAR rifle

4- a grenade launcher (like the tf2 demoman's)

5- luger p08

6- mauser

7- RPG

8- barret 0.50

9- bazooka

10- lazer guns, whenever they create it.

[Arashikage]

There is no .45 ACP IMI Uzi, or if it is, it's like the .45 Luger, and is a rarity (The only surviving original .45 Luger is worth over $1,000,000) and back when it was designed it "may" of been a good weapon, but it is seriously outclassed now-a-days. Even in close range it is inaccurate, it is one of a handful of guns that have higher first round accuracy with a sound suppressor. It is a poor design made entirely to spray down hallways and hoping to hit your target.

The new M16 variants are still very prone to jamming, including the M4 and such. By M16, I mean the entire family, including the M4's and AR-15's. They are all prone to jamming, and the M4 prone to exploding in your face, been documented and researched. And restricting the M16 to three-round burst made it all but useless. The original M16 had one saving grace, a blistering fire rate for an assault rifle, at 900+ RPMs. Taking that away made it nearly useless, especially in urban environments, because, as my dad (who used the M16 extensively) said, if you're going to assault an urban environment, you need fully-automatic weapons. Three round burst will just get more of your people killed taking it. M16/M4/AR-15 is still a piece-of-shit.

The Desert Eagle is an IMI piece of shit, also. It is not the modern form of the .44, as that is a round, not a gun. The Desert Eagle can also come in 9mm. But using the more powerful rounds, its recoil is too extreme for its performance. Only real reason people use it is it looks sort of intimidating thanks to Hollywood action films, and that is where it became popular. People that don't really know about guns get the things, and expect to be able to shoot a tank to death. I hate people like that, and I hate the gun because of that. I don't have a problem with people not knowing about guns, but when people start playing Call of Duty or seeing Hollywood movies and start acting like they know what real guns are capable of, it starts to get annoying. Oh, and the .50 AE has about the same recoil as the .500 Magnum, when the .50 AE barely outclasses the .45 in power.

The Galil is just a cheap imitation of a great gun, and they made it aesthetically unpleasant. I can dislike a gun for that reason. I didn't say it was "bad," I said I didn't like it. And if you notice, two other of the guns I listed are made by IMI.

And the Sten is a bad gun, always was a bad gun, the people who used it said it was a bad gun, just a cheap attempt at copying what Germany was doing, making decent, mass-produced weapon, cheaply.

Never dissagreed with you on the sten. 

Also i never said you couldn't dislike a gun because of how it looks, it's just kind of silly to say that a gun is a piece of shit because it looks ugly.  It still kills people, and is actually much more accurate and effective than the soviet AK47 it was modeled after

There is a .45 ACP Uzi.  It's one of the 4 chambers of the Uzi.  9x19 Parabellum, 22 LR, .45 ACP, and .41 AE.  What do you have against IMI?  The Israeli's make great crap, reliable, cheap, and effective.  It may be outclassed, but it's not a suckish gun

The M16 may jam, but one of the biggest reasons why it jams is because the people bitching about their gun jamming don't keep it clean.  Clean your rifle every time you get the chance and you won't have this problem.  Here are a few more good things about the M16, it's light 5.56mm ammo makes it easy for soldiers to carry a shit load of bullets, the gun is more accurate than so many other guns out there, plus, it has recoil a freakin 12 year old can handle.  And if the M16 is so bad, how come we still use it?  How come Afghanistan, Fiji, El Salvadore, Estonia, Guatemala, Haiti, Indonesia, South Korea, New Zealand, Nepal, and so many others use it still?  And on top of that, how come your father uses it extensively?

I still fail to see how the Desert Eagle is terrible.  It can be chambered for those five different rounds, did you not pay attention to that?  And it wasn't just made for any old infantryman, it was made for the peace of mind of various officers and such.  If I am going to get a gun to take someone down, I want to make sure they are down for good

[Vy'drach]

Never dissagreed with you on the sten. 

Also i never said you couldn't dislike a gun because of how it looks, it's just kind of silly to say that a gun is a piece of shit because it looks ugly.  It still kills people, and is actually much more accurate and effective than the soviet AK47 it was modeled after

There is a .45 ACP Uzi.  It's one of the 4 chambers of the Uzi.  9x19 Parabellum, 22 LR, .45 ACP, and .41 AE.  What do you have against IMI?  The Israeli's make great crap, reliable, cheap, and effective.  It may be outclassed, but it's not a suckish gun

The M16 may jam, but one of the biggest reasons why it jams is because the people bitching about their gun jamming don't keep it clean.  Clean your rifle every time you get the chance and you won't have this problem.  Here are a few more good things about the M16, it's light 5.56mm ammo makes it easy for soldiers to carry a shit load of bullets, the gun is more accurate than so many other guns out there, plus, it has recoil a freakin 12 year old can handle.  And if the M16 is so bad, how come we still use it?  How come Afghanistan, Fiji, El Salvadore, Estonia, Guatemala, Haiti, Indonesia, South Korea, New Zealand, Nepal, and so many others use it still?  And on top of that, how come your father uses it extensively?

I still fail to see how the Desert Eagle is terrible.  It can be chambered for those five different rounds, did you not pay attention to that?  And it wasn't just made for any old infantryman, it was made for the peace of mind of various officers and such.  If I am going to get a gun to take someone down, I want to make sure they are down for good

Never said you did disagree, just driving the point home.

And of course it is more accurate, the 7.62x39mm isn't known for accuracy, it's known for intermediate range stopping power. The 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm that the Galil can fire ARE known for accuracy (though the 5.56 is at best unreliable and more accurately, completely random with its stopping power). But the Galil is an ass ugly gun that is a copy of a copy (it was based off a Finnish AK-47). I do not like it. I do not like IMI, I'd explain why but that gets into politics, and I don't care to discuss politics on SF-O.

And I am mistaken, there are those calibers for the Uzi, but I still hate the gun. I refuse to use it in games, I would refuse to hold or fire it in real life, just the thought of touching it makes me sick.

It is hard to keep the M16 clean in combat situations, where dirt works its way into the gun, no matter how much you clean it back at base, it will get dirty and probably will jam on you in battle. The M4 at best will jam, and has been known to explode in your face at the drop of the hat, especially after 400 rounds. Why do we still use it? They don't want to spend the money to replace it, Hollywood has made people think the M16 is a good gun so most grunts today don't know better, and backdoor politics that I won't go too far into, since as I said, I don't want to discuss those on SF-O. And of course a 12 year old can handle the recoil, a 5.56x45mm is such an underpowered round. And I said my father Used, not uses. He used it because he HAD to. He hated the M16, especially the new models. Whenever he could, he took an M60E4 instead of an M16. Why? Because it is more accurate, more reliable, and more stopping power. And an XM8 with an 12 1/2 inch barrel is more accurate than an M16 with a 20 inch barrel. It is not an accurate gun, it may be more accurate than early AK-47's and the like, but it isn't very accurate with things like the AN-94, the AK-101-107, AEK, XM8, L85A2. It will break on you if it doesn't kill you itself, and leave you screwed.

The Desert Eagle can be chambered for SIX rounds, in case YOU didn't see my message. I didn't say I didn't like the rounds. I hate the GUN. Granted .44 and 9mm aren't necessarily my favourite pistol rounds (the .45, 5.7x28mm, and .500 magnum are), but I don't have a problem with them. I just hate the Deagle. Same as the Uzi, I don't use it in games, I don't want to touch or fire one. If you want to put someone down for good, get a .45, less recoil, and it does the job fine, in less time. The .50AE requires too much time to line up a second shot, where as I can empty my Ruger P90 in an area smaller than a human heart in less than 5 seconds. Granted it only takes one, but it's just fun to do that.

[Arashikage]

It is hard to keep the M16 clean in combat situations, where dirt works its way into the gun, no matter how much you clean it back at base, it will get dirty and probably will jam on you in battle. The M4 at best will jam, and has been known to explode in your face at the drop of the hat, especially after 400 rounds. Why do we still use it? They don't want to spend the money to replace it, Hollywood has made people think the M16 is a good gun so most grunts today don't know better, and backdoor politics that I won't go too far into, since as I said, I don't want to discuss those on SF-O. And of course a 12 year old can handle the recoil, a 5.56x45mm is such an underpowered round. And I said my father Used, not uses. He used it because he HAD to. He hated the M16, especially the new models. Whenever he could, he took an M60E4 instead of an M16. Why? Because it is more accurate, more reliable, and more stopping power. And an XM8 with an 12 1/2 inch barrel is more accurate than an M16 with a 20 inch barrel. It is not an accurate gun, it may be more accurate than early AK-47's and the like, but it isn't very accurate with things like the AN-94, the AK-101-107, AEK, XM8, L85A2. It will break on you if it doesn't kill you itself, and leave you screwed.

The Desert Eagle can be chambered for SIX rounds, in case YOU didn't see my message. I didn't say I didn't like the rounds. I hate the GUN. Granted .44 and 9mm aren't necessarily my favourite pistol rounds (the .45, 5.7x28mm, and .500 magnum are), but I don't have a problem with them. I just hate the Deagle. Same as the Uzi, I don't use it in games, I don't want to touch or fire one. If you want to put someone down for good, get a .45, less recoil, and it does the job fine, in less time. The .50AE requires too much time to line up a second shot, where as I can empty my Ruger P90 in an area smaller than a human heart in less than 5 seconds. Granted it only takes one, but it's just fun to do that.

First off I'd like to say, the Uzi was actually made by IWI(Israel Weapon Industries), A branch of IMI. 

Next, Why would you say that the 5.56 caliber round is underpowered?  If you shoot someone center mass with one, they're going down, I dont care who the f*ck you are.  It isn't underpowered if it can kill you with one hit.  Also, the M16 is about as prone to getting dirty as the H&K G3, or the G36c, or any other gun you care to mention.  It just takes to getting dirty slightly less.  I used to hate the M16 too, but then I became informed on the good rather than just focusing on the bad.  I'd rather have a gun that has very little recoil, ammo that's so light I can carry at least 200 bullets on me, And a lightweight gun that is so accurate it's scary, yet jams, than have a heavy, impractical, monster of a gun that is accurate as flinging shit at the enemy, but doesn't jam.  If you ask me, the M16 is in my top 10.  Plus, when has an M4 ever exploded in someone's face?  If it does so as constantly as you are saying, shouldn't I have seen this or even heard of this?  In all my time researching firearms, I have yet to see records of the M4 blowing up in someone's face. 

Thirdly, the Desert Eagle is chambered for only FIVE rounds, not six.  Who told you it was six?  It can NOT under any circumstances fire a 9mm bullet.  And why would it?  The Desert Eagle is one of those guns that IMI made because they could, not because it was practical or anything.  When you said it would take too long to line up for the second shot, are you implying that I would need a second shot?  If you get shot with a Desert Eagle, you're going down I don't care where you get shot.  Getting hit with a bullet that big will render you unable to fire your weapon for at least a few seconds, giving someone who is experienced with this firearm more than enough time to recover from the recoil and line up for another shot.

[Vy'drach]

Ok, I'm just done with you, as I'm pretty much convinced you are talking out your ass on this one. The 5.56x45mm being a one-hit?

There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the bullet on target, especially the first-shot kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation. This wounding problem has been cited in incidents beginning in the first Gulf war, Somalia, and ending in the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. In recent lab testing of M855, it has been shown that the bullets do not fragment reliably or consistently from round-to-round, displaying widely variable performance. In several cases, yawing did not begin until 7"-10" of penetration. This was with all rounds coming from the same manufacturer.[This lack of wounding capacity typically becomes an increasingly significant issue as range increases (e.g., ranges over 45m when using an M4 or 140m when using an M16 w/ a 20" barrel) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch (37 cm) barrel of the U.S. military's M4 carbine generates considerably less initial velocity than its big brother, the 20" barreled M16 and terminal performance can be a particular problem with the M4.

    Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting.

    This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants.

    Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag’s papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) also describes this problem.

However, if the bullet is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a person is greatly reduced. Several alternate cartridges have been developed in an attempt to address the perceived shortcomings of 5.56mm ammunition including the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm Remington SPC.

Recently, advances have been made in 5.56mm ammunition. The US military has adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range. Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with special forces units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. Commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip).

Performance of 5.56x45mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.

The 5.56x45mm is more than known to be a weak round. In Somalia, it has taken several rounds, almost entirely magazines, to kill a single person. One soldier actually put two mags into a woman, and she still managed to get up, grab the RPG warheads she was carrying, and crawl off. Granted it was experimental piercing rounds, but it still caused no damage. Only head/spinal column hits killed quickly there. One soldier said that all of his buddies were jealous of one man who decided to keep the M14 as opposed to the M4, because he was putting people down left, right, and center.

And the G3/G36 inaccurate? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *wipes tear* The XM8, which outperformed the M16s and M4s in every way, is a G36 at heart. And the G3 is what my favourite weapon of all time, the most accurate semi-auto sniper rifle in the world, the PSG1, is based off of. The PSG1 is just an oversized G3. The G3 is an accurate battle rifle, battle proven, reliable, and will ACTUALLY put someone down in one hit.

And I have seen Desert Eagles chambered for 9mm Parabellum, also called 9x19mm Parabellum. Why is it chambered for that? Because it is a common round. And a first hit down is a characteristic of the .45 also. If a person is wearing body armour and gets hit with a .45 from within twenty or so feet (the normal pistol distance), it will break every rib in his body and knock him over. Not send him flying back like Hollywood, but will take him off his feet. Granted a .50AE will do that as well, but the time it takes a .50AE to take one person down, a .45 can take down three because the .45 has MUCH less recoil. The .50AE is an impractical round.

They have tested the M4s and what causes them to explode, it is a documented occurence. Luckily we are going to use the M416 now, which is using the receiver from one of the guns you were bad-mouthing earlier, the G36. Now we are going to have a carbine that is lighter weight, more accurate, more reliable, and won't explode in your face at the drop of a hat.

If you want to go ahead and use these weapons, fine. I don't care. I won't, because I hate the guns. Don't need a Deagle as my .45s or .40s do the same thing with less fuss. I'd trust a rock to save my life than the M16/M4, so I won't use those either, (Unless it is an M416, which is a G36, not a member of the M16 family). And I just hate the Uzi and the Galil.

[Arashikage]

Okay, now you are taking what i say out of context just so you look like you know what the -F-Bomb- you are talking about.  I NEVER said that the G3 or G36c are inaccurate, I never even questioned their accuracy, I simply said that they got dirty just as well as the M16.  And if the XM8 outperformed the M16 in every way, why the fuck was it discontinued?  You can go ahead and hate these weapons, I don't -F-Bomb-ing care, I'm just about as done with you as you are with me.  You don't want to see the good side of these guns and if you want to keep being racist against the Israeli's you can go right ahead.  I'm out

[Vy'drach]

I'd rather have a gun that has very little recoil, ammo that's so light I can carry at least 200 bullets on me, And a lightweight gun that is so accurate it's scary, yet jams, than have a heavy, impractical, monster of a gun that is accurate as flinging shit at the enemy, but doesn't jam.

And they may get dirty, but they don't jam as often because of it.

And the reason we didn't use the XM8 is because of petty things that are easily fixed, officially, but the main reason is because we didn't want to spend the money to reissue weapons and train soldiers on it. Everyone who used to XM8 in testing loved it, and the "problems" were minor fixes at best.

And go ahead, play the race card, because that always works.

[Arashikage]

I'm sorry, I just wanted a friendly argument.  I didn't expect this.  I get pissed off very easily when it comes to firearms and planes.  People talk about things that I don't agree with at all and when I make responses, I end up sounding like an asshole

[Vy'drach]

All good, I get the same way at times. I just take my gun talk very seriously, and my opinions are pretty resolute. The Desert Eagle is technically a sound weapon, but I just do not like it, and I find the .50AE round to be highly impractical when a .45ACP does the same thing for less.

[Arashikage]

All good, I get the same way at times. I just take my gun talk very seriously, and my opinions are pretty resolute. The Desert Eagle is technically a sound weapon, but I just do not like it, and I find the .50AE round to be highly impractical when a .45ACP does the same thing for less.

It's just, the only thing that I really don't like is when people highly opinionate their statements.  They say that a gun sucks just because they don't like it.  You did give reasons but your reasons didn't hold much water.  On a friendlier note, here are my top five favorite weapons:

1- The soviet AK-47, The sheer firepower of this weapon makes it a devastating foe in battle, fired in short controlled bursts, the weapon is much much more accurate than if it's fired in full auto.  The main reason for the recoil is the gigantic metal bolt sliding back and forth, a big reason for the bolt being so oversized is to avoid jamming. 

2- The American MAC 11, This submachine gun, designed by Gordon Ingram, is probably one of the coolest submachine guns in my knowledge of guns.  It is a blowback operated open bolt submachine gun which is used primarily for close quarters.

3- The Israeli TAR 21 Tavor, This gas operated rotating bolt bullpup rifle is one of the greatest designs by the folks at IMI.  It has a great ROF(900 RPM), fires the small but effective 5.56x45mm cartridge, plus, as an added bonus, it looks freakin awesome. 

4- The Czech VZ61 Skorpion, This submachine gun, often referred to as a machine pistol, is a 9x19mm is great for close quarters and as a sidearm for most snipers and urban assault troops.  It is a very reliable, very durable little gun and is about as big as the MAC 11 with the stock retracted.  It has a wire stock that is flipped down from the front of the gun.

5- The German H&K G3, This assault rifle has a ROF of about 600, and a 20 round magazine.  It fires the powerful 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and is very accurate.

[CrypticQuery]

:shock:

Is....the....war over?

Out of curiosity Vydrach and Arashikage, between a Beretta M9, a Glock 19, or a Colt M1911, which would you prefer? :P

[Vy'drach]

Is....the....war over?

Out of curiosity Vydrach and Arashikage, between a Beretta M9, a Glock 19, or a Colt M1911, which would you prefer?

I think the "war" is over, lawl.

And I prefer the Colt M1911. It's proven reliable, it's incredibly safe, and as I said, its .45 stopping power will put someone down in one hit, even through body armour, unless they are wearing impact dispersing armour like Dragon Skin, but that is highly expensive and so the chances are slim they'd have it. Granted after you put the person down if they have body armour, you'd have to put another round in their head, but they are going down and staying down for a while through the body armour.

Though for pistols, out of the ones we have, I prefer the Ruger P90, or the H&K USP .40. Both are more comfortable for me to fire than the Colt (Not that the Colt is unpleasant to fire, just that the P90 and USP fit me better).

[CrypticQuery]

I think the "war" is over, lawl.

And I prefer the Colt M1911. It's proven reliable, it's incredibly safe, and as I said, its .45 stopping power will put someone down in one hit, even through body armour, unless they are wearing impact dispersing armour like Dragon Skin, but that is highly expensive and so the chances are slim they'd have it. Granted after you put the person down if they have body armour, you'd have to put another round in their head, but they are going down and staying down for a while through the body armour.

Though for pistols, out of the ones we have, I prefer the Ruger P90, or the H&K USP .40. Both are more comfortable for me to fire than the Colt (Not that the Colt is unpleasant to fire, just that the P90 and USP fit me better).

Glad to hear a cease fire has been declared *waves surrender flag*

That's definitely one of the reasons I've liked the M1911's quite a bit, their stopping power and history/service length is unrivaled by many other sidearms.  Can't wait till' I can move to a state with much more lax firearm laws

[Vy'drach]

I'd love to live in a state with few firearm laws.

Oh, and just for t3h lulz, the .557 T-Rex rifle being fired. From what I've heard, this shooting range is in Palestine or so, and they have people fire this gun just to record them not being able to handle the force of it, because it is funny. Though one guy manages to handle it.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I'd love to live in a state with few firearm laws.

Me too.  Try Washington State (NOT D.C.).

[Arashikage]

As for your question, Crazy.  I would prefer the Glock 19.  It has nearly the same power, plus the 1911 may be pretty durable but for a clumsy ass like me, I can drop the 1911 a bunch of times and the hairline drop trigger might break, forcing me to have to get it replaced.  While the Glock's firing mechanism is inside.  The 1911 is a well crafted gun ment for good long fire, wheras any other gun for say the baretta would need to cool down or you warp the barrel and get backfire.  But I like the Glock's durability and ammo capacity so I have to go with the Glock

[Guest Julius Quasar]

But I like the Glock's durability and ammo capacity so I have to go with the Glock

^ Win :yes:

[DZComposer]

I'm detecting hints of nationalism in this thread.

Realistically, this thread probably belongs on the mature board, but I will leave it here for now.

Let's judge the weapons by their designs, not by the people who made them.