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["User"]

And then I'll always act like myself in the games? Sounds good to me.

I miss you too to be honest. Come back!

[Vy'drach]

I still refuse to believe NOT A SINGLE PERSON, OUT OF THIS MAGICALLY DUMB GROUP OF SIX, has the presence of mind to be aware enough to check their backs ala spy-checking. Anyone that falls for a Backburner trap more than once is dumb and deserves to be badburned.

Backburner is too situational to be better than Degreaser. Give me something OTHER than 6 people looking the wrong way.

You don't run straight at them. They're focused on teammates ahead, you jump down on them and obliterate them. There are plenty of places to pop-up out of nowhere and wreck shit. I said the Degreaser is more versatile, but the situation where Backburner is king happens more often than you think. In reality it comes down to preference, but I didn't want sroberson to get it into his head that the Backburner is just garbage. It's great, if you're able to work it, and I find it insanely more fun, as you actually burn things, you can still do relatively normal airblast use, I find it harder to pull off, it has better reward when you catch a soldier in the face with a Backburner redirect and have them go, "WTF?!" Also, I like going the road less traveled and I hated the dime-a-dozen Puff-n-Sting.

It's not "Too situational," you just have to make a point of making those situations.

Also, getting six people is a lovely rarity, it's usually more 2-4. The point is, you can do it, I have done it, Puff-n-Sting couldn't hope to do it.

[Icy]

Puff-n-Sting couldn't hope to do it.

I've come up on a cart with 3+ people and killed them all, many times. If you have a competent team around you working together and there are 6 people on a cart, you don't need the badburner to be all commando.

Not trying to say you're no good, just saying the backburner isn't really this great weapon as you keep saying. Degreaser + Shotty/Flare + Axtinguisher can do 99% of the things the BB can do, typically.

For a newbie, sure, use it, but just don't fall into bad habits as I did. Took me ages to adjust my playstyle from W+M1ing with the BB to actually thinking strategically with the Degreaser/Shotty/Axtinguisher.

[Firebug]

Puff-n-Sting couldn't hope to do it.

I've come up on a cart with 3+ people and killed them all, many times.

Skip to 7:30, apparently I can't post so it skips to a certain time automatically

[Vy'drach]

I've come up on a cart with 3+ people and killed them all, many times. If you have a competent team around you working together and there are 6 people on a cart, you don't need the badburner to be all commando.

Competent team around you working together. I can kill them with nothing more than a soldier out there shooting rockets and being basically Arnold Schwarzenegger from :07 to :16 in this video

Skip to 7:30, apparently I can't post so it skips to a certain time automatically

And people were saying how the 6 Backburner kills required the enemy team to be oblivious. The deal with the Backburner is they're all dead before they realize they're getting hit. That Heavy could of easily swiveled and killed the Pyro.

I will agree you avoid the bad habits on it, but it's not a throw-away weapon after you get basics. It more than has a place, and it outclasses anything in that place. The trick is getting to that place.

[Gene Inari]

That Heavy could of easily swiveled and killed the Pyro.

Same deal for the BB, just enough swivel and oop, no more crit-flames. Even with crits, a fully healed heavy would have just enough HP to react, turn, and kill you dead. With Puff-n-sting, facing doesn't matter, the spin-up time would of killed the heavy. With BB, once the heavy is turned, you're just another WM+1ing pyro about to be added to the pile.

[Firebug]

Backburner only deals crits in a 90-degree arc centered directly behind the player. The only one there who would've been critted was the Medic, maybe the Sniper if he hadn't already had the Ax out. Heavy was being healed and was already revved. The overheal from the Medic, lack of quickswitch and relatively low damage output on the Backburner means he would've been shredded if he had charged in with the Backburner alone.

And yes, the Backburner has its place. One very small niche of a place. This by no means makes it a viable alternative to the Degreaser. What the Backburner can do, a Degreaser combo can also do just as well if not better, and still be capable of a number of other things.

Backburner is not a throwaway weapon, it's just inadequate. The only reason I have one in my backpack still is because I'm a collector, and also because I like to screw around on occasion with my buddies.

[sroberson]

Man, didn't figure my nub question would bring such heated debates.

My thoughts:

Backburner, given the modification of gameplay, has its upsides to the regular flamethrower especially if I am no good at air blasting anyways (at least if I wander behind someone I can get a bit of extra damage). However, it's a nightmare to try and practice air blasting as obviously it is awful for the ammo. I don't have the Degreaser yet, but honestly I can't find much use for me yet as I have yet to work on combo attacks and with the Degreaser I am just not putting out the damage as the other two. I'll probably be going back to just the regular old flamethrower until I can figure out how to mix weapons around more and get my aiming up to par.

[Vy'drach]

Same deal for the BB, just enough swivel and oop, no more crit-flames. Even with crits, a fully healed heavy would have just enough HP to react, turn, and kill you dead. With Puff-n-sting, facing doesn't matter, the spin-up time would of killed the heavy. With BB, once the heavy is turned, you're just another WM+1ing pyro about to be added to the pile.

This is why you go in with a distraction. They tunnel vision enough that by time they realize it they're dead. And If they do swivel somehow, there's actually a few things you can do, such as circle-jerking or push and shotgun. Unless the Hoovy is Annie Oakley, you have time to shotgun, not pending variables. Or just keep firing, if you want. I've killed plenty of Swivel Hoovies with all of these.

Backburner only deals crits in a 90-degree arc centered directly behind the player. The only one there who would've been critted was the Medic, maybe the Sniper if he hadn't already had the Ax out. Heavy was being healed and was already revved. The overheal from the Medic, lack of quickswitch and relatively low damage output on the Backburner means he would've been shredded if he had charged in with the Backburner alone.

And yes, the Backburner has its place. One very small niche of a place. This by no means makes it a viable alternative to the Degreaser. What the Backburner can do, a Degreaser combo can also do just as well if not better, and still be capable of a number of other things.

Backburner is not a throwaway weapon, it's just inadequate. The only reason I have one in my backpack still is because I'm a collector, and also because I like to screw around on occasion with my buddies.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, as I see this conversation going nowhere, as to me the Puff-n-Sting is just the flavour of the month, over-hyped cookie-cutter loadout, and falls short in places the Backburner does not. I'm not saying Backburner is better (well, actually I am in situations, but in general I'm not), just that's it's not worse and just requires some initiative from the user.

Backburner, given the modification of gameplay, has its upsides to the regular flamethrower especially if I am no good at air blasting anyways

Backburner actually has a high call to be good at airblasting since you need to make them count. But if you're good at them, they're fine.

[Firebug]

I'll probably be going back to just the regular old flamethrower until I can figure out how to mix weapons around more and get my aiming up to par.

Whether or not the Backburner is inferior to the Degreaser is an entirely different topic than what weapon a newbie should try. Feel free to use the Backburner. If weapon combos and airblasting isn't your thing you'll do better with the Backburner than you would with the stock or Degreaser.

The point I was trying to make is that the Degreaser has greater potential and is more useful overall. No one can blame you for being new, everyone here was new at one point. We just have the benefit of experience, and we're trying to help you out. Our conflicting viewpoints, though... meh.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, as I see this conversation going nowhere, as to me the Puff-n-Sting is just the flavour of the month, over-hyped cookie-cutter loadout, and falls short in places the Backburner does not.

Considering the arguments that have been exchanged these past few hours, it's safe to say this has gone somewhere. Nowhere new, but somewhere.

The great Degreaser vs Backburner debate didn't start here, Vy. It's an old, endless struggle over temporary victories. One that the Backburner rarely wins. And the struggle won't end here, it's nowhere near over. Not by a long shot.

[Vy'drach]

And I said from the beginning I just wanted to get it into his head that the Backburner is not a terrible weapon that should never be equipped before the naysayers put it into his head that it was. At no point did I say to start with it. It's a tricky weapon to master, and requires a bit of finesse.

This way, when he's more experienced with Pyro, he can look at the Backburner and go, "Hmmm..." as opposed to, "I heard this weapon is bad so it must be bad, and I will not use it." He may potentially go forth, and melt face. Melt much face.

[Milkyway64]

I agree fully that Backburner is situatonal. However I also don't think it's useless. IIRC the Pyromania buffs made most flamethrowers match the backburner, and backburner got an additional 10% to keep it ahead. This means Backburner is now 20% stronger than the pre-pyromania stock/degreaser, and has full afterburn. Considering that all classes still have the same HPs with no change, and most classes aren't exactly sturdy in the first place, even ignoring back crits the backburner is scary to get caught by. This is why Vydrach keeps asserting that backburner is for an ambush style.

However, the part that he's terribly and inexcusably wrong on is the airblast cost not being a penalty.

Vy, that increased airblast cost is the singular and sole reason Backburner is not suited to being a main weapon. Normal flamethrowers have 10 airblasts in them, 20 x 10 is 200, which is their max ammo. Backburner takes 50 ammo to blast. That's 4 blasts from a full clip. Even if you are near perfect with airblasts (and trust me, Firebug almost IS) that's still only 3 realistic blasts because you likely have puffed around some flames before engaging, and you still want to have ammo left for actually returning fire, too. Three are simply not enough to combat any amount of spam to protect yourself, or pin down and enemy, or do ANYTHING except get one or two reflects to save you while you retreat right back to the dispenser. You may argue that those are all you need to kill the enemy and pick up his weapon, but this implies both that A. the soldier/demo shooting at you is stupid and B. that he's all alone, which very rarely happens and is a minority SITUATION. Hence, situational.

It simply just does not hold up in the long run, and the other main choices do a much better job at keeping you alive and does a -good enough- job of killing the enemy, too.

[Vy'drach]

In my experience I haven't had an issue with the airblast because the only time you need it is you're either running headfirst into multiple people, which you should be backing out of in the first place, or you've caught a roaming soldier/demo and one good redirect usually cinches you the battle there. In maps where it's going to be lots of team head-to-heads, I swapped out of the Backburner, as it's not likely to get a good ambush in there, depending on the maps.

Can the increased airblast cost screw you over? Of course. Will it? Probably at some point, shit happens after all. But in my experience, it didn't happen all that often as I was going for surprise attacks that killed the enemy before they really had a chance to react. No real head-to-heads, especially against multiple opponents. If it was a head-to-head, it was fights where you'd only need to airblast 1-2 times. Maybe 3 a very small percentage of the time. Most of the time it's affected me is I saw a bad situation, heard the voice in my head that says, "This is a bad situation, you're not gonna win this encounter, back off and get a good jump in another time," and I didn't listen and went in like:

(This is also why it took me several attempts to kill Lord Gwyn in Dark Souls when, if I had listened to the voice, I'd of killed him on my second attempt with no sweat, but I had to be a badass and try to finish the fight when he had little HP left but was winding up an attack, basically we played chicken with attacks. If I had avoided his combos again and waited for him to grab again, the fight would of been over).

That's my own fault for being stupid, and nothing more. Every weapon has those moments of "Gee, if I were using X weapon, I wouldn't of died there." Even stock, with the exception of maybe the Sniper Rifle as, with the exception of the Shitney Sleeper, the other rifles work pretty much the same. And actually, scratch that, I can see a hypothetical situation where the Machina would save you while the stock wouldn't, though it's such a small chance, but given the amount of people who play TF2, I'm sure it's come up due to the Million Monkey Theory.

Anyways, not saying the increased airblast cost isn't a major con, but just that I actually didn't run into situations where it was a hindrance. Heavies, Soldiers, Demos, Pyros, Medics, Snoipahs, Engineers, Spies, Scoots, they all tend to die before they even know what's happening. The only ones that have a chance of not are the first three, and the biggest threat of the three realizing he's being Backburned before he's dead is the Hoovy, and he's so weakened at that point a little circle-jerk will finish him off.

Again, not saying the airblast cost isn't a con, but that airblasting more than twice rarely comes up in normal Backburner use. Your most common use is the roaming soldier/demo, and one good redirect into them cripples them so badly that finishing them is rather child's play. Otherwise, it's extinguishing teammates or the occasional "I need some space." And of course there's airblasting people off cliffs. That's always funny.

[Milkyway64]

All it takes is one good redirect, sure, but therein is a problem. You only HAVE 3 tries, and as a decent, but not super great Soldier, I can safely tell you that even airblast masters need 3-5 to kill me. Reason for this is because I'm not an idiot, and every single shot I fire at a Pyro unless I know beforehand he isn't accomplished in the art of the reflect, I expect to be airblasted. I either dodge pre-emptively as if fighting an enemy soldier, bait the airblast at midrange, or go close range in the hopes of making the pyro kill himself on selfdamage with my own rocket, thereby forcing him to take the damage whether he lands the reflect or not. At 200 HP I can take 2 hits unless the rocket in question is a crit, and even then, it depends how far I was from the explosion and possibly survive.

This, again, relies on the enemy being dumb to work. 3 airblasts are NOT ADEQUATE for fighting anyone other than pubs, and while this is all fine and dandy, the difference is the other throwers can stand up to better players, backburner only shines vs. the inexperienced. I'm not even touching up on how Backburner cannot counter out ubers for their full duration or any other applicant airblast has.

[Robert Monroe]

Actually, Pyromania increased all flamethrower damage back up by 10% and removed the damage buff from the backburner, so now it just trades crits for airblasts.

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Backburner

See for yourself!

[DZComposer]

New maps coming for this week.

These are the top three maps from TF2Maps.net's STAR KOTH contest:

koth_flake (Compact map with a ledge for airblasting people off)

koth_railbridge (Compact map with a railway bridge over the point. And trains.)

koth_arctic (Viaduct meets Granary meets Gorge)

I'm becoming more and more fond of KOTH maps. I may be putting more on the server.

[Icy]

Oh awesome! I was seriously about to suggest you add at least Arctic. That's great. :)

[Hidi]

The maps aren't too big are they? Some of the custom maps my computer has trouble handling, and I did have to bow out one night because my computer failed to download the maps.

[DZComposer]

I'm also putting the latest version of Cashworks.

Hidi: KOTH and Arena maps are the smallest ones as they only have 1 CP.

EDIT: Maps installed and put on the votelist. I also took the opportunity to install OS updates on the server.

[Hidi]

Hidi: KOTH and Arena maps are the smallest ones as they only have 1 CP.

Awesome! I'll try and make it one of the game nights. I've got a tournament and I have to get up at 5 Saturday morning. (< Minus the coffee)

[Icy]

Don't forget, everyone, it's Friday night! :D

[Firebug]

Was a lot more fun than I remember. Teams were more or less balanced, and no one could complain when it was stacked.

Would've enjoyed it more though if we didn't play a bunch of new KotH maps. Not much a Pyro can do if he doesn't know where the nearest health and ammo packs are.

Still, good game. If I didn't already have a previous engagement I'd have played longer tonight. Same goes for tomorrow, I'm afraid.

"You don't shoot rockets at Fail or Firebug! That's a RULE!"

[Xidphel]

Another rule is that you don't help engineers as they build their stuff apparently. Kind of annoying when it's impossible to get a level 3 sentry before having it destroyed because the entirety of the team is off doing something else instead of having 1 or 2 people here to help defend my stuff.

[Milkyway64]

I did a lot of lulzing about to great effect. At Mountainlab it was especially fun, had a lot of people playing along. My favorite moment was this, featuring fail; I leave spawn spamming jeers, see a blue dot on the wall. He shoots and misses me and I turn and melee dare him. He jumps and says something back. Then;

Soldier: If you know what's good for you you will run!

Sniper: OKAY MATE.

And he ran off. I did not persue.

[Icy]

Tonight was great… till Mountain Lab. (Last map I played) My God, that was insane. Really, like seriously. I mean I don't even know… damn.

Team XXL Manor came in and we had immortal engineers and I had BS lag all over on that map I just don't even know what asgkjasga;s...

Other than that, it was great fun tonight! Nice to have Firebug and Fail, Milky, etc. No stacking or whining. I did well most of the night, too.

I loved KOTH_Arctic, by the way. We must play that more!