Mosques protests

[fox1235]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/anti-mosque-protests-on-the-rise-say-muslim-advocates

I find this very stupid, these people have the right to worship freely, more and more people are pretty much stereotyping. Just because your Muslim dosn't mean your a terrorist.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Naw, I'm in favor of those protests.  I hate Muslims, long story, but I say good for the protestors, and I don't think that Mosque should stand there down the street from the World Trade Center.  It would be an insult to the 9/11 victims and our soldiers who died for this nation to let that Mosque open there.  A lot of these protestors lost family members to 9/11.

I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but every Muslim I ever met is a rude, selfish asshole.

Besides, why is it okay to you for Muslims to worship freely, but not okay to you for those people to protest?  Talk about a double standard.

[Guest DRL]

I am against this protest, but it as long

as it is not any violent, let it be. If it was

me, I will not hear anything of which they

have to say, and simply wait out until they

get tired - or, if it becomes violent, my police

force will be allways ready to control it if it

becomes a riot.

I am in favor of free speech. I am against

stupidity, such as this protest. Religion and

politics are two separate things. People should

get over it, and stop being "this law is not saintc!

let's band it for thy sake of or gawz!!"

[fox1235]

I am against this protest, but it as long

as it is not any violent, let it be. If it was

me, I will not hear anything of which they

have to say, and simply wait out until they

get tired - or, if it becomes violent, my police

force will be allways ready to control it if it

becomes a riot.

I am in favor of free speech. I am against

stupidity, such as this protest. Religion and

politics are two separate things. People should

get over it, and stop being "this law is not saintc!

let's band it for thy sake of or gawz!!"

That and the Bill of Rights guarantes freedom of religion.

[Robert Monroe]

Naw, I'm in favor of those protests.  I hate Muslims, long story, but I say good for the protestors, and I don't think that Mosque should stand there down the street from the World Trade Center.  It would be an insult to the 9/11 victims and our soldiers who died for this nation to let that Mosque open there.  A lot of these protestors lost family members to 9/11.

I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but every Muslim I ever met is a rude, selfish asshole.

Besides, why is it okay to you for Muslims to worship freely, but not okay to you for those people to protest?  Talk about a double standard.

That's still fallacy of association. To "hate" all muslims because the ones you know are assholes is incredibly petty.

Anyway, I'm confliced on the issue. The protestors are being rather bigoted (claiming things like Muslims declared war on us and all), but at the same time... why build a MOSQUE at Ground Zero? I think a national monument would be much better use of te ground. :|

[fox1235]

That's still fallacy of association. To "hate" all muslims because the ones you know are assholes is incredibly petty.

Anyway, I'm confliced on the issue. The protestors are being rather bigoted (claiming things like Muslims declared war on us and all), but at the same time... why build a MOSQUE at Ground Zero? I think a national monument would be much better use of te ground.

Yeah it might not be a best idea to do that, through they own the property so they can do whatever they want with it.

[Guest DRL]

That's still fallacy of association. To "hate" all muslims because the ones you know are assholes is incredibly petty.

Anyway, I'm confliced on the issue. The protestors are being rather bigoted (claiming things like Muslims declared war on us and all), but at the same time... why build a MOSQUE at Ground Zero? I think a national monument would be much better use of te ground.

Agreed on that. I do think that

this protests is stupid, but such

place would better be off with

a monument rather than more

religious stuff.

[Sabre]

That's still fallacy of association. To "hate" all muslims because the ones you know are assholes is incredibly petty.

Anyway, I'm confliced on the issue. The protestors are being rather bigoted (claiming things like Muslims declared war on us and all), but at the same time... why build a MOSQUE at Ground Zero? I think a national monument would be much better use of te ground.

Not really. The extreme of that is saying "Not all car thiefs are bad people". My predjadice comes from something called experience, but mine is vs people in wheelchairs. The reason is they use sympathy to bully and get special treatment.

wheelchair guy "Hemopathy works!"

Me "No it doesn't, it's all bollocks."

wheelchair guy cries fowl, I get accussed of being a bully and that I should accept homeopathy works because barron von wheelchair might get upset if I dont. All of them, without exception do this.

Technically that makes me ableist, but it's true, and it will ttake me meeting a number of wheelchair bound people who never do that to make me change my mind.

On this whole 911 thing. ...really? Yours still on about that almost a decade after the fact? The bombs in london went off 4 years ago we have pretty much forgoten and moved on. Why is rebuilding the tower, with maybe a plaque somewhere, so hard?

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Not really. The extreme of that is saying "Not all car thieves are bad people". My prejudice comes from something called experience, but mine is vs people in wheelchairs. The reason is they use sympathy to bully and get special treatment.

wheelchair guy "Hemopathy works!"

Me "No it doesn't, it's all bollocks."

wheelchair guy cries fowl, I get accused of being a bully and that I should accept homeopathy works because Baron Von wheelchair might get upset if I don't. All of them, without exception do this.

Technically that makes me ableist, but it's true, and it will take me meeting a number of wheelchair bound people who never do that to make me change my mind.

On this whole 911 thing. ...really? Yours still on about that almost a decade after the fact? The bombs in London went off 4 years ago we have pretty much forgoten and moved on. Why is rebuilding the tower, with maybe a plaque somewhere, so hard?

Agreed!  Thanks!

[Robert Monroe]

Not really. The extreme of that is saying "Not all car thiefs are bad people". My predjadice comes from something called experience, but mine is vs people in wheelchairs. The reason is they use sympathy to bully and get special treatment.

wheelchair guy "Hemopathy works!"

Me "No it doesn't, it's all bollocks."

wheelchair guy cries fowl, I get accussed of being a bully and that I should accept homeopathy works because barron von wheelchair might get upset if I dont. All of them, without exception do this.

Technically that makes me ableist, but it's true, and it will ttake me meeting a number of wheelchair bound people who never do that to make me change my mind.

On this whole 911 thing. ...really? Yours still on about that almost a decade after the fact? The bombs in london went off 4 years ago we have pretty much forgoten and moved on. Why is rebuilding the tower, with maybe a plaque somewhere, so hard?

"Durrhurr I've met assholes in wheelchairs so I'm going to hate ALL PEOPLE IN WHEELCHAIRS. ITS PERSONAL."

Yeah, its still being shallow as hell. You are letting the incredibly minute experiences of your personal lives dictate your feelings towards a larger group of people. Look beyond the scope of your personal experiences.

And really? REALLY? Comparing the London Bombings to WTC? Ok, London Bombings were awful as hell, but at most 60 people died. WTC Had THREE THOUSAND dead, and SIX THOUSAND injured, not even getting into people who were afflicted from the rubble and smoke, and it was COMMITTED BY RAMMING 2 LARGE COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS INTO THE HUB OF THE WESTERN MARKET.

And they are rebuilding WTC 1, I think, but it is currently unfinished.

[Sabre]

"Durrhurr I've met assholes in wheelchairs so I'm going to hate ALL PEOPLE IN WHEELCHAIRS. ITS PERSONAL."

Yeah, its still being shallow as hell. You are letting the incredibly minute experiences of your personal lives dictate your feelings towards a larger group of people. Look beyond the scope of your personal experiences.

That's dumb thinking. The reason is simple. If you burn your hand on a hot pan, you learn "Oh. I better not touch that hot pan." You dont go "Oh, that was a bad experience, but I'm sure it won't happen again." *touchs pan.

As a result, I have learned to assume all hot pans burn until proven otherwise. That's called learning. Same with femanists, same with chavs, same with emos. Logically they are not ALL arseholes, but it's generally better to assume arsehole until proven innocent.

And really? REALLY? Comparing the London Bombings to WTC? Ok, London Bombings were awful as hell, but at most 60 people died. WTC Had THREE THOUSAND dead, and SIX THOUSAND injured, not even getting into people who were afflicted from the rubble and smoke, and it was COMMITTED BY RAMMING 2 LARGE COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS INTO THE HUB OF THE WESTERN MARKET.

Not this crap again. You sound like an emo going "My tradgedy is bigger then yours! BAWWWWW!" 911 was over years ago, but it's the only recent justification for attention and acting like a twat, failing to realise that by doing that you are letting the terrorists win.

[fox1235]

Sabre you can't just stereotype people.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

And they are rebuilding WTC 1, I think, but it is currently unfinished.

...even after 9 years.

That's dumb thinking. The reason is simple. If you burn your hand on a hot pan, you learn "Oh. I better not touch that hot pan." You dont go "Oh, that was a bad experience, but I'm sure it won't happen again." *touchs pan.

As a result, I have learned to assume all hot pans burn until proven otherwise. That's called learning. Same with femanists, same with chavs, same with emos. Logically they are not ALL arseholes, but it's generally better to assume arsehole until proven innocent.

I'm sick of tolerance and "sensitivity"...Society is quick to defend Muslims, yet they got no qualms about Christians being mocked, ridiculed, or discriminated against.

Not this crap again. You sound like an emo going "My tradgedy is bigger then yours! BAWWWWW!" 911 was over years ago, but it's the only recent justification for attention and acting like a twat, failing to realise that by doing that you are letting the terrorists win.

Yep.

[Fana McCloud]

Sabre you can't just stereotype people.

Uh, yes he can. It's something that everyone HAS to do on a day to day basis - they have to form generalizations based on personal experience to create rules on how to interact with the world. Like not touching a hot frying pan, not assuming that other drivers on the road are accommodating or smart (even though examples of both can be found, it's a cost benefit thing), not criticizing someone you don't know well in even a constructive manner because too many people will flip out and get angry (even though not all people will), etc.

The only Muslims I ever met, who came to my Unitarian Universalist congregation to talk about their faith, refused to say that it is wrong to kill people that convert away from Islam (which often happens in the Muslim world), because people supposedly have to make a conscious choice to be Muslim and know the consequences. Never mind the fact that that later someone may discover new evidence that tells them that their choice to believe Islam is the one true faith may have been wrong - if you convert out of Islam, you should die for it according to them. I will fully admit that, being the only Muslims I ever met, they aren't nearly a large enough sample size to draw any concrete conclusions on Muslims as a whole, but that naturally soured me quite a bit as you can imagine. : /

As for the original topic - I feel the protesters are being stupid too, but it's their right to be there just as much as those Muslims have a right to build a mosque. What amount of time is necessary for all wounds to be properly healed so that such a move isn't "too soon"? It's been almost 9 years. Those Muslims most likely do NOT hold the same views that Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden do, so their presence shouldn't be an affront any more than the presence of a Christian church near me should be blanketed by my dislike of hard core evangelical conservative branches of the faith.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Sabre you can't just stereotype people.

He just did.

Uh, yes he can. It's something that everyone HAS to do on a day to day basis - they have to form generalizations based on personal experience to create rules on how to interact with the world. Like not touching a hot frying pan, not assuming that other drivers on the road are accommodating or smart (even though examples of both can be found, it's a cost benefit thing), not criticizing someone you don't know well in even a constructive manner because too many people will flip out and get angry (even though not all people will), etc.

The only Muslims I ever met, who came to my Unitarian Universalist congregation to talk about their faith, refused to say that it is wrong to kill people that convert away from Islam (which often happens in the Muslim world), because people supposedly have to make a conscious choice to be Muslim and know the consequences. Never mind the fact that that later someone may discover new evidence that tells them that their choice to believe Islam is the one true faith may have been wrong - if you convert out of Islam, you should die for it according to them. I will fully admit that, being the only Muslims I ever met, they aren't nearly a large enough sample size to draw any concrete conclusions on Muslims as a whole, but that naturally soured me quite a bit as you can imagine. : /

That's right!

...and I know some ex-Muslims who converted away from Islam, these friends of mine came from Pakistan, Egypt, Persia, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Turkey, and they told me that Islam is a horrible religion, and its modern followers are as horrible and backwards as they were 1,000 years ago.  That's why they left that religion.  They agree with the protesters, and said America, like much of Europe, should profile people, and damn any negative PR or hurt feelings.  These ex-Muslims said erecting that Mosque at ground zero is like saying the enemy has won.  They said that Islam and terrorism have become one-in-the-same...the "Jihadists" from 1,000 years ago, and the Muslims who tried to conquer Europe centuries ago were the ancestral equivalents of these modern day Al-Quaida goons.  They said Islam is an imperialist, savage, intolerant, narrow-minded hateful religion...

"Christianity says 'love thy neighbor', Islam says 'Kill all non-believing Infidels!  A-la-la-la-la-la!'...that's why we converted, at great personal risk.  We had to leave our homes and everything for our own safety.  Muslims don't even tolerate their own kind, the Shi'ite and Sunnis are still trying to kill each other 1,000 years later.  I keep hearing Americans say 'tolerate Muslims, they are people of peace'...they are NOT, and tolerance is a two way street.  Muslims don't tolerate Westerners, so westerners shouldn't tolerate them, America needs to wake up and see the very real threat that these people are.  We grew up among them, we are aware of what they are capable of doing, and that their opinions cannot be changed."

"Islam is your enemy, our enemy...it hates any Western values and beliefs!  Al Quaida is the muscle through which Islam operates now...it used to be Jihadists from 1,000 years ago, and the Ottoman Muslims centuries ago...now you have a more dangerous threat than ever!  Letting that Mosque be erected at Ground Zero is a very disturbing sign, it's almost like America is saying it is giving up, letting the enemy win!"

Again, this is mainly what my ex-Muslim friends said, and I agree with them...

[Asper Sarnoff]

Christianity says "love thy neighbor", Islam says "Kill all non-believing Infidels!  A-la-la-la-la-la!"...

With all due respect, it wasn't THAT long ago since Christianity was at the same place. Would be a bit like two guys bullying others equally bad, and then the next day, one stops and start scolding the other for STILL hanging on to it.

Actually, I'll take Julius statements against Islam as a challenge! I'll convert to Islam, and become the first muslim Julius likes!  (J/K)

[Guest Julius Quasar]

With all due respect, it wasn't THAT long ago since Christianity was at the same place. Would be a bit like two guys bullying others equally bad, and then the next day, one stops and start scolding the other for STILL hanging on to it.

Actually, I'll take Julius statements against Islam as a challenge! I'll convert to Islam, and become the first muslim Julius likes!  (J/K)

But Christianity stopped that, Islam never stopped, and [probably] never will....

*shoots Asper* 

...and I'm not saying "I hate Muslims", I'm saying that America needs to stop being so damn naiive about the real threat that Muslims pose to us and our way of life.  I simply don't trust these people.

[Asper Sarnoff]

But Christianity stopped that, Islam never stopped, and never will....

*shoots Asper* 

...and I'm not saying "I hate Muslims", I'm saying that America needs to stop being so damn naiive about the real threat that Muslims pose to us and our way of life.  I simply don't trust these people.

Strangely enough, it wouldn't have surprised me if some muslim had said the same, except turned around, back in the days of the spanish inqusition. The Middle East used to be a centrum for science and culture once, if not THE centrum, and several necesary parts of our modern society which we take for granted, we can trace the roots of back to them.

[Guest DRL]

...and I'm not saying "I hate Muslims", I'm saying that America needs to stop being so damn naiive about the real threat that Muslims pose to us and our way of life.  I simply don't trust these people.

In other words:

'I fear Muslims for being

Muslims'.

That is too much shortsighted,

honestly.

Sure, I can not deny it: Most Islamic

countries DO have a different lifestyle,

and many accept poligamy as legal.

(I do not like that, however).

You just can not say 'they are a threat

to us' while the truth is the opposite.

They religion 'might' 'MIGHT' be a 'threat'

to your religion, in the sense that it might

attempt to convert more people to it's

side.

But on a National scale? Sorry to say...

Yep.

...But you are just acting like an stereotypical

USA Republican. Come on! The 'Cold-War' ended

at 1991. Sure can be more original than just

those Republican dummies.

"Christianity says 'love thy neighbor', Islam says 'Kill all non-believing Infidels!  A-la-la-la-la-la!'...that's why we converted, at great personal risk.  We had to leave our homes and everything for our own safety.  Muslims don't even tolerate their own kind, the Shi'ite and Sunnis are still trying to kill each other 1,000 years later.

Herein lies the crux of the problem.

The 'savage, imperlists' Muslims are

the Shiite, a very, very conservative

faction.

Sunnites are more moderates, or even

liberals. They let their children marry

who they want to, and they are able

to marry just once.

Shiites, sure, they are your regular

fanatic. But Christianity has it's share

of 'fanatics' as well. Recently, at the

homosexual talks, one of them tried

to start a fight with the homosexual

group (thus he tried to turn the

protest/counter-protest into a big

mess/riot).

Roman Chatolic Conservatives are just

the Western equivalent of Shiite.

[Fana McCloud]

Those Muslims most likely do NOT hold the same views that Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden do, so their presence shouldn't be an affront any more than the presence of a Christian church near me shouldn't be blanketed by my dislike of hard core evangelical conservative branches of the faith.

Should read : "Those Muslims most likely do NOT hold the same views that Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden do, so their presence shouldn't be an affront any more than the presence of a Christian church near me should be blanketed by my dislike of hard core evangelical conservative branches of the faith." Least I think so. Changed it in my original post. I get my negatives twisted around at times.

[Fana McCloud]

Sure, I can not deny it: Most Islamic

countries DO have a different lifestyle,

and many accept poligamy as legal.

(I do not like that, however).

You just can not say 'they are a threat

to us' while the truth is the opposite.

They religion 'might' 'MIGHT' be a 'threat'

to your religion, in the sense that it might

attempt to convert more people to it's

side.

I think his real objection to Islam is less that it will convert people away from Christianity or any other faith, and more to do with the perception that Islam and/or cultures that are traditionally Muslim have some pretty backward views on peoples' personal rights and liberties, including condoning the killing of people over matters of personal conscience.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

In other words:

'I fear Muslims for being

Muslims'.

That is too much shortsighted,

honestly.

That's not what I was saying at all, you're just putting words into my mouth, just because I don't agree with you.

But on a National scale? Sorry to say......But you are just acting like an stereotypical

USA Republican. Come on! The 'Cold-War' ended

at 1991. Sure can be more original than just

those Republican dummies.

Oh, nice...call me dumb and ridicule me because I don't agree with you, despite the fact I never ridiculed anyone else here for their beliefs.  You're a piece of work, you know that? 

Calling those that don't agree with you "dummies", might prove you're dumb as they are, but in a different way...

To be fair, maybe I was wrong to call the opposition to me "naive", but naive and dumb are not the same thing.

I think his real objection to Islam is less that it will convert people away from Christianity or any other faith, and more to do with the perception that Islam and cultures that are traditionally Muslim have some pretty backward views on peoples' personal rights and liberties, including condoning the killing of people over matters of personal conscience.

YES!  Thanks, Fana!

And I read today, on the front page of the paper, the FBI arrested a white man in the town of King Salmon, Alaska who had converted to Islam AND was plotting to attack America.  His name was Paul Rockwood Jr., a meteorologist, white, middle class, had it all....a family, a nice home, a good job...he threw it all away to be a Muslim and join Al Quaida. (Look it up, if you don't believe me!)

[Guest DRL]

I think his real objection to Islam is less that it will convert people away from Christianity or any other faith, and more to do with the perception that Islam and/or cultures that are traditionally Muslim have some pretty backward views on peoples' personal rights and liberties, including condoning the killing of people over matters of personal conscience.

But that is because Islam nations

are generally backwards nations.

In Western Europe, as technology,

science, and politics advanced, religion

lost it's foothold, and quickly became just

that: a religion.

To date, Islam countries actively mix

politics with religion, and it should be

pointed out they are rather backwards

in the technological scale. (Save for

the more liberall countries, say the

Emirates, but that is just a tiny fraction).

That's not what I was saying at all, you're just putting words into my mouth, just because I don't agree with you.

Oh, nice...call me dumb and ridicule me because I don't agree with you, despite the fact I never ridiculed anyone else here for their beliefs.  You're a piece of work, you know that? 

Calling those that don't agree with you "dummies", might prove you're dumb as they are, but in a different way...

To be fair, maybe I was wrong to call the opposition to me "naive", but naive and dumb are not the same thing.

I was just stating that you are saying

'muslims are a threat to us' - and that

is not right. Islamic countries do not

have even 5% percent of USA's GNP.

How the HYPER can they become a 'threat'?

Sure, I agree with you on the fact that

people whine too much sometimes, but

that goes to Christians as well.

If we are to tackle on religion, better be

fair and compare the full picture, not the

just the current/past/worst one.

Also: I am not calling you dumb, just stating

that you are wrong. Maybe it was not the

right way to do so, I apologize if you feel

offended. I will not apologize for my difference

of political views, but I should not go around

yelling at you just because your view is

different (regardless of being right/wrong).

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I was just stating that you are saying

'muslims are a threat to us' - and that

is not right. Islamic countries do not

have even 5% percent of USA's GNP.

How the HYPER can they become a 'threat'?

Okay, maybe not "all" Muslims are bad, but as the old saying goes "One bad apple [or more], can spoil the whole barrel"

Radical Muslims take the poorer, desperate, uneducated and uniformed Muslims, and lie to them...

You got these psychopath radical Muslims, who are in key positions of power and wealth, exploiting the mass groups of Muslims who are poor, uneducated, and unaware of the world beyond, especially the western world.  The Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians, they got people in the poorer places saying "Death to America", because they hold all the money America gave them and then tell the poor "Oh, America never gave you/us the money, America wants you to be poor", so those people go with what they last heard, or only heard.

If you'll notice, the Al Quaida and Taliban leaders are all rich Saudis, Lebanese, and Egyptians, exploiting poorer Muslims, using their desperation and lack of education and knowledge.

Also: I am not calling you dumb, just stating

that you are wrong. Maybe it was not the

right way to do so, I apologize if you feel

offended. I will not apologize for my difference

of political views, but I should not go around

yelling at you just because your view is

different (regardless of being right/wrong).

Oh, okay, I'm sorry.  Though I don't think I'm [totally] wrong, I'm glad you weren't ridiculing me.  Thanks, Sorry for getting so defensive.

[Guest DRL]

Oh, okay, I'm sorry.  Though I don't think I'm [totally] wrong, I'm glad you weren't ridiculing me.  Thanks, Sorry for getting so defensive.

It is okay, no problemo.

This place is for difference of

opinion and debate of those views,

in the end. :)