Mosques protests

["User"]

So, you admit them that the only difference between cult and religion is numbers?

Um...no?

Read my entire post again, I only listed a dozen or so characteristics that differentiates the two. 

Religious people act as you describe a cult, and if even christians were a cult, that means all cults should be equally valid.

You're taking a much more outspoken minority in a religion and labeling them as a "cult" because said minority tend to be "extremeist"?  This is the 2nd time I've seen you attempt, IMO, to label the majority of Christians out there as cultists of sorts - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Anyways, this is getting off topic.  If you want to start up another topic about something like this then by all means, be my guest.

[Sabre]

No point. I've tried to explain my point but you refuse to accept it. Nothing in your defination of cult excludes mainstream religion, and nothing in the relgion definition excludes cults aside from numbers. All a new topc would be you going "lalalalala Im not listening lalalala"

["User"]

No point. I've tried to explain my point but you refuse to accept it. Nothing in your defination of cult excludes mainstream religion, and nothing in the relgion definition excludes cults aside from numbers. All a new topc would be you going "lalalalala Im not listening lalalala"

A religion teaches you how to be in the world, while a cult tries to take you out of the world. A religion gives its members guidance and support in how to survive and get along out in the world. In contrast cults always try to isolate their members from the world. Cults want their members to live together, usually in isolation, and break off all contact with friends or family who aren't also members of the cult....I fail to see why this is so hard to grasp...in practice everyone I personally know can differentiate between a cult and religion by what exactly they do.

In short, and in practice cults are the more "extreme" of the two when it comes to these "similarities".

I've stated what I've needed to say, and I know exactly where you are coming from - I'm not stupid.  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Furthermore I'd appreciate and tolerant your opinions more if you didn't include the pointless jabs. You're better than that man. >_>

Now guys, back on topic....I am done with this line of questioning.

[Sabre]

A bit late, but a hillarious summery of the event by Charlie Brooker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque

[fox1235]

A bit late, but a hillarious summery of the event by Charlie Brooker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque

That's how I think everyones overreacting.

Especially Fox News.

["User"]

What gets lost in a lot of this is that people aren't opposed to the mosque actually being built.  They're opposed to the location out of respect for all the people who died in 9/11.  Yes, they should have the right to build a mosque, but in this case why don't they just move it down a couple of blocks or something and then all this uproar wouldn't have started in the first place.

[Robert Monroe]

What gets lost in a lot of this is that people aren't opposed to the mosque actually being built.  They're opposed to the location out of respect for all the people who died in 9/11.  Yes, they should have the right to build a mosque, but in this case why don't they just move it down a couple of blocks or something and then all this uproar wouldn't have started in the first place.

Is already 2 blocks away from Ground Zero.

And there are a few other mosques nearby in the area (within 5 blocks).

And the building they want to convert into the mosque is an abandoned suit factory. So yeah.

["User"]

Is already 2 blocks away from Ground Zero.

And there are a few other mosques nearby in the area (within 5 blocks).

And the building they want to convert into the mosque is an abandoned suit factory. So yeah.

I'll look more into the very specific details when I get a chance to.  I'm sure there is more to it then this though (size of mosque maybe?) because if there wasn't I would see NO other reasons why there would be opposition in the first place to yet another religious building in an already very multicultural city such as NYC.

I'm more or less up to my neck in political, economical, and other controversial issues I've been following - until then I'm going to refrain from giving further opinion on this matter lest I look like an ass for not knowing all the facts. 

[Guest Julius Quasar]

The state was gonna give those Muslims free land/property, at a different location away from the proposed site.  But the Muslims were so rude and arrogant, they wouldn't take it, and didn't care that they were being insensitive to the families of the 9/11 victims.  That killed any tolerance I have for Muslims.  I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but I have no tolerance for any Muslims anymore. 

[Sabre]

I'll look more into the very specific details when I get a chance to.  I'm sure there is more to it then this though (size of mosque maybe?) because if there wasn't I would see NO other reasons why there would be opposition in the first place to yet another religious building in an already very multicultural city such as NYC.

I'm more or less up to my neck in political, economical, and other controversial issues I've been following - until then I'm going to refrain from giving further opinion on this matter lest I look like an ass for not knowing all the facts. 

You seem to know more then me. I don't even live there. Aside from the distence, the main issue (as far as I know) that people are overreacting to is that it's not a mosque, rather a community centre with a mosque in it. To me it's a bit like building a mall, and saying "Giant sock shop to be built!", but as I already said, I don't know enough.

Tbh, things like the size mosque are irrelivent imo. You don't need to know how many moving parts are in a gun to be against war for example.

[Robert Monroe]

The state was gonna give those Muslims free land/property, at a different location away from the proposed site.  But the Muslims were so rude and arrogant, they wouldn't take it, and didn't care that they were being insensitive to the families of the 9/11 victims.  That killed any tolerance I have for Muslims.  I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but I have no tolerance for any Muslims anymore.

To their eyes, its not insensitive, and the protestors in turn are being insensitive to them. Perspective.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

To their eyes, its not insensitive, and the protestors in turn are being insensitive to them. Perspective.

Maybe, but speaking of perspective, you would think that they would try to see things from the other side's point of view, and like I said, free land/real property was offered to them by the state, so they could build their "community center" there, and they outright refused.  It's not like they were being told they couldn't have what they wanted completely. 

[DZComposer]

You do know that there were many Muslim Americans killed at the WTC, right? Also, this is two blocks away from the FOUNTAIN in front of the new Bldg. 7. Add another three blocks to be at the memorial site.

There are two Christian churches close-by. Should they close? Why must Muslims be unable to have a place of worship nearby? Especially peaceful Muslims.

Besides, Al-Qaeda is Sunni. This community center is Sufi. That's like the difference between Catholics and Unitarians, and even then the comparison doesn't go far enough. They are THAT different.

Look up Sufism. It's VERY VERY VERY VERY different from the fundamentalist Sunnism that Al-Qaeda prescribes to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

Also, it wasn't rudeness or arrogance that they refused relocation. They want to build it in this neighborhood because 1: there is a significant Muslim population LIVING there. 2: They are under-served. There is one prayer room in the neighborhood right now and it only seats 20 people, BTW this building is 4 blocks away from the WTC site. Not to mention that they were the only people interested in that building which had sat on the market for 10 years before they bought it. Not like it would be easy for them to unload it without losing tons of money.

If this were a YMCA, no one would be complaining.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I know that, and I know what Sufism is.    I have my own [personal] reasons for opposing Mosques, and Islam, but I won't get into that because I don't want to start another flame war.  Your point(s) sound reasonable, but I still stand behind what I say and believe in. 

[DZComposer]

For anyone who doesn't know the geography here, I have prepared a visual aid:

Source map is from Google.

[Robert Monroe]

I know that, and I know what Sufism is.    I have my own [personal] reasons for opposing Mosques, and Islam, but I won't get into that because I don't want to start another flame war.  Your point(s) sound reasonable, but I still stand behind what I say and believe in.

So despite evidence that should allieviate your grudge against Islam, you would still hold them anyway. And beyond this, you are irate at those who dislike and judge Christianity based on the "arrogance" of a few select beleivers actions.

Julius, sometimes you can be really smart, but this is phenomally ignorant.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

So despite evidence that should allieviate your grudge against Islam, you would still hold them anyway. And beyond this, you are irate at those who dislike and judge Christianity based on the "arrogance" of a few select beleivers actions.

Julius, sometimes you can be really smart, but this is phenomally ignorant.

Well, I don't claim to be perfect. 

But perhaps in time I could forgive...

[Robert Monroe]

Well, I don't claim to be perfect. 

But perhaps in time I could forgive...

I'm not saying being perfect. I'm saying be more forgiving. Or at least, more openminded/understanding. It really is hypocritical for you to dislike Muslims and then bitch about how people dislike Christians for what is at the heart of the matter the same reasons.

[Guest Julius Quasar]

I'm not saying being perfect. I'm saying be more forgiving. Or at least, more openminded/understanding. It really is hypocritical for you to dislike Muslims and then bitch about how people dislike Christians for what is at the heart of the matter the same reasons.

Don't recall doing/saying that about Christians, but w/e...I still oppose overdoing "political correctness", and favor some profiling investigation for security purposes, given the recent arrests made on terrorists I've seen on the news lately. *edited*

I know that this Mosque is obviously not a "Victory Mosque", nor will it be a terrorist HQ.

I'm not saying "Let's lock up all American Muslims in internment camps like with the Japanese-Americans in WW2", all I'm saying is that people traveling/coming from or through certain nations (NOT U.S. Citizens with ancestry/ethnic origins from them), dominated by certain beliefs and [Anti-American] sentiments, should be watched more closely.

[Robert Monroe]

Don't recall doing/saying that about Christians, but w/e...I still oppose overdoing "political correctness", and favor some profiling for security purposes, given the recent arrests made on terrorists I've seen on the news lately.

I know that this Mosque is obviously not a "Victory Mosque", nor will it be a terrorist HQ.

I'm not saying "Let's lock up all American Muslims in internment camps like with the Japanese-Americans in WW2", all I'm saying is that people traveling/coming from or through certain nations (NOT U.S. Citizens with ancestry/ethnic origins from them), dominated by certain beliefs and [Anti-American] sentiments, should be watched more closely.

You've mentioned before how you're annyoed at how people judge all Christians based on what the bad ones do. You disliking all Muslims because of what a few do is very similar.

And I know you aren't that wing nutty  But you really haven't mentioned anything of this sort before. America has a ton of Muslims, and they are in fact loyal to America. Yes, we should exercise caution around known citizens of the enemies of the state, but Muslim Americans are for the most part not in that group.

[Sabre]

On the amature scientist podcast, there was a great bit where he says the quickest way to destroy a religion is to americanise it. A win-win. :P

[Guest Julius Quasar]

America has a ton of Muslims, and they are in fact loyal to America. Yes, we should exercise caution around known citizens of the enemies of the state, but Muslim Americans are for the most part not in that group.

That's what I was insinuating in that last post. 

On the amature scientist podcast, there was a great bit where he says the quickest way to destroy a religion is to americanise it. A win-win.

I thought it was "the quickest way to destroy a religion is to commercialize it." 

[DZComposer]

I'm not saying "Let's lock up all American Muslims in internment camps like with the Japanese-Americans in WW2", all I'm saying is that people traveling/coming from or through certain nations (NOT U.S. Citizens with ancestry/ethnic origins from them), dominated by certain beliefs and [Anti-American] sentiments, should be watched more closely.

Okay, the way you worded this implies that Muslims who were born abroad are Anti-American. That's patently false. You also mention profiling earlier.

This kind of thinking fails for two reasons: 1. There are many innocents who will at the very least be inconvenienced, and in some cases have their right violated, because they look like "them." 2. Profiling does not prevent anything.

I am Hispanic, but I was born in Texas. I have only been to Mexico twice, and both times were just a quick hop across the border to Nuevo Laredo.

Do you think it is OK for every cop I see to question my citizenship because I am Hispanic, and most illegal immigrants are Hispanic?

Do you think it is OK for a person who is visibly Muslim to be pulled aside at the airport and given an extra search because he looks Muslim and many hijackings are committed by Muslims?

If you answered "No" to the first one, and "Yes" to the second, you are a damn hypocrite.

If you answered "Yes" to either, you support infringing upon people whom you have no evidence are doing anything wrong and subjecting them to what is nothing more than a fishing expedition. Not only is this ethically dubious, it is unconstitutional as the 14th amendment states that all persons are to be treated equal under the law, and it uses the word "persons," not "citizens.".

Now on to my second point. Profiling doesn't work. Profiling would not have prevented the Oklahoma City bombing, which was the worst US terror attack prior to 9/11. Profiling likely would not have prevented 9/11, either, as the hijackers were smart enough to carry out the hijacking using only things that were allowed to be brought on a plane at the time.

Profiling for doesn't reduce crime, either. Firstly, most crime in the US is perpetrated by US citizens. People of all walks of life, ethnicity, skin colors, and religions have committed violent crimes.

So, to recap, you press for policy that infringes on peoples rights in hopes of extra security, but the policy doesn't even work.

I leave you with this:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety' date=' deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[/quote']

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Okay, the way you worded this implies that Muslims who were born abroad are Anti-American.

Dude, don't put words on my mouth.  That's not what I meant at all.

Do you think it is OK for every cop I see to question my citizenship because I am Hispanic, and most illegal immigrants are Hispanic?

Do you think it is OK for a person who is visibly Muslim to be pulled aside at the airport and given an extra search because he looks Muslim and many hijackings are committed by Muslims?

Obviously no to both of those.  The fact that I spoke out against internment of Muslims today and the Japanese in World War 2 should've tipped you off.

 

[Robert Monroe]

Dude, don't put words on my mouth.  That's not what I meant at all.

Key word: implies. Your choice of words leaves an impression that accoring to you is otherwise false to your intent. Thats not putting words in your mouth.