Is it worse to be cynical or jaded?

[Guest Julius Quasar]

Originally taken from this poll I found in the Archives:

http://forums.starfox-online.net/index.php?topic=2653.0

A discussion type poll I think.

I'm going to have to say being cynical is worse than jaded because cynics thrive on the belief that you can't trust anything or anyone, with no solid reasoning. Thus leading to the belief structure that everything must be questioned and nothing is as simple or easy as it seems.

People become jaded through repetitive experience. At least if you're jaded it implies you've lived a little and you already know what's coming. "I told you so." is their favorite phrase, so to speak.

And on a side note, someone can both be cynical and jaded at the same time.

(Special thanks to Gene Inari for making the original poll/topic! )

I think it's worse to be cynical. 

[Sabre]

First off I know that Gene Inari, he was a knob.

Second, I don't understand the question. Is it better to hate everything or to hate everything?

["User"]

Nah, Gene isn't a knob.  But that's only my opinion.

As a mental state over a long period of time, being jaded is worse...and more "permanent".  I know people who are cynical in their personality, and while I am neither, if I had to pick one or the other I'd rather be cynical.

[Sabre]

Nah, Gene isn't a knob.  But that's only my opinion.

As a mental state over a long period of time, being jaded is worse...and more "permanent".  I know people who are cynical in their personality, and while I am neither, if I had to pick one or the other I'd rather be cynical.

It was from another forum long ago...

People tell me I'm cynical, so I'll go with that. Cos Im awesome.

Also being a cynic means that being wrong is a plesent suprise.

[Konchaski]

I think it's worse being cynical, because if you're constantly doubting everyone and everything in existence for it's sincerity. You lose many opportunities in life you approach everything like that - I believe most people in the world have good intentions but just don't know the full consequences of their actions.

However I'm pretty jaded when it comes to life as in a sort of if I see something go down a certain path I can see what is going to go wrong. However, just because I'm jaded does not mean I don't believe in possibilities or good in decisions or people. I just think society and the mob mentality is more prone to dumb decisions.

[Sabre]

if you're constantly doubting everyone and everything in existence for it's sincerity. You lose many opportunities in life you approach everything like that

That's crap. By doubting everything you dont fall for tricks like magical thinking. It's not doubting enough that leads to failure.

[Xortberg]

That's crap. By doubting everything you dont fall for tricks like magical thinking. It's not doubting enough that leads to failure.

By doubting everything you succeed? Bull. If you doubt everything, you'll just come off as an asshole and people will hate you. If people hate you, you will likely be less successfull than if people like you.

[Thu'um]

I don't know what either of these are

[King of the Shrooms]

i would like a definition to these two words before i do any discussing on them

[Xortberg]

i would like a definition to these two words before i do any discussing on them

You have the full power of the Internet at your disposal. Find them yourself.

[Sabre]

i would like a definition to these two words before i do any discussing on them

I wondered the same, my results were thus

Cynical is doubting everything.

Jaded is hating everything because you lived through it.

If course, people see cynicism as a bad thing when it's actually a very good thing acording to that definition.

By doubting everything you succeed? Bull. If you doubt everything, you'll just come off as an asshole and people will hate you. If people hate you, you will likely be less successfull than if people like you.

Oh right. It's hard work and dedication that opens doors. ...oh wait, no, that didn't work.

[ARWINGCOMMANDER 3987]

Originally taken from this poll I found in the Archives:

http://forums.starfox-online.net/index.php?topic=2653.0

A discussion type poll I think.

I'm going to have to say being cynical is worse than jaded because cynics thrive on the belief that you can't trust anything or anyone, with no solid reasoning. Thus leading to the belief structure that everything must be questioned and nothing is as simple or easy as it seems.

People become jaded through repetitive experience. At least if you're jaded it implies you've lived a little and you already know what's coming. "I told you so." is their favorite phrase, so to speak.

And on a side note, someone can both be cynical and jaded at the same time.

(Special thanks to Gene Inari for making the original poll/topic! )

I think it's worse to be cynical.

So do I. Jaded sounds almost as bad though.

[Xortberg]

Oh right. It's hard work and dedication that opens doors. ...oh wait, no, that didn't work.

You know, I do recall in some other topic you admitted your problems in life stemmed from your own procrastination. You can't really say hard work and dedication don't pay off when you never worked hard to begin with  :trollface:

[Sabre]

You know, I do recall in some other topic you admitted your problems in life stemmed from your own procrastination. You can't really say hard work and dedication don't pay off when you never worked hard to begin with 

You recall wrong.

In fact, the opposate is true. I worked hard and got qualifications, but the slackers who left college with less then I got in school get all the breaks.

[Xortberg]

You recall wrong.

In fact, the opposate is true. I worked hard and got qualifications, but the slackers who left college with less then I got in school get all the breaks.

I see. My bad, I misinterpreted the post.

In that case, sounds more like you're jaded. Having lived through it, you hate it.

Doubting everything - though I hate to sound like an ass - is why so many people on this forum have a problem with you. A healthy skepticism is fine, but you tend to staunchly refuse the possibility that you could be wrong, as far as I've ever seen.

[Sabre]

I see. My bad, I misinterpreted the post.

In that case, sounds more like you're jaded. Having lived through it, you hate it.

Doubting everything - though I hate to sound like an ass - is why so many people on this forum have a problem with you. A healthy skepticism is fine, but you tend to staunchly refuse the possibility that you could be wrong, as far as I've ever seen.

I disagree ... ...Crap. Hook line sinker rod and copy of angeling times.

Seriously though, I have no problem with being wrong or with differing oppinions. My issue is with magic bullshit thinking. I think it was before you created the sock puppet joined. There was a thread about crop circles. I'll keep it short as to not get off topic for long, but basicly I was 'wrong' because the crops were bent a certain way, or that designs are impossable, or whatever bollocks it was s/he was peddling. The point was they never answered the simple questions of "Why does that prove it's aliens" It was annomally hunting, special pleading, and good old fasioned incorrectness.

[Xortberg]

I disagree ... ...Crap. Hook line sinker rod and copy of angeling times.

Seriously though, I have no problem with being wrong or with differing oppinions. My issue is with magic bullshit thinking. I think it was before you created the sock puppet joined. There was a thread about crop circles. I'll keep it short as to not get off topic for long, but basicly I was 'wrong' because the crops were bent a certain way, or that designs are impossable, or whatever bollocks it was s/he was peddling. The point was they never answered the simple questions of "Why does that prove it's aliens" It was annomally hunting, special pleading, and good old fasioned incorrectness.

I can roll with getting angry when someone dodges around a question like that, since it tends to piss me off as well. I'll leave your post alone for the most part, but I have just one question to ask you: What's so wrong with believing in the paranormal, or magic bullshit thinking, as you like to call it? So long as I don't try to pass it off as a fact, why should it matter to you if I believe the Earth is made of cheese manufactured in an alien factory, or some other crazy crap?

[Sabre]

I can roll with getting angry when someone dodges around a question like that, since it tends to piss me off as well. I'll leave your post alone for the most part, but I have just one question to ask you: What's so wrong with believing in the paranormal, or magic bullshit thinking, as you like to call it? So long as I don't try to pass it off as a fact, why should it matter to you if I believe the Earth is made of cheese manufactured in an alien factory, or some other crazy crap?

Again. I have no problem. Believe in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, whatever, I don't care, doesn't bother me. You say you believe, I say I dont believe. That's that. There are reasons I don't like it. There is a site called whats the harm that is a running total of the body count and finatial cost of magic. (on a side note, I like the methods of bigfoot believers. ie. they go out looking rather then just claiming it is so like both believers and non believers do)

I could explain why I rant at people. However, I will break it down into 3 to explain it better. I will use psychics, but any crap will do.

1 As a game with friends its fine, even fun. "Oh, he totally guessed my door number! Magic!"

2 This is where they claim to contact the dead and like. It's sinister so I try and convince people not to do it, but ultimatly it's their choice and doesn't harm anyone but the people involved.

3 is where I draw the line as it harms/effects people who don't believe and in some cases causes serious problems. Psychic detectives that waste police time for example.

So, let's use crop circles. To joke about it being aliens is fun, to seriously claim it's aliens is up to you, but what if there was enforced tin foil hat wearing? Would you be saying "What's so wrong with believing in the paranormal?"

[Xortberg]

Again. I have no problem. Believe in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, whatever, I don't care, doesn't bother me. You say you believe, I say I dont believe. That's that. There are reasons I don't like it. There is a site called whats the harm that is a running total of the body count and finatial cost of magic. (on a side note, I like the methods of bigfoot believers. ie. they go out looking rather then just claiming it is so like both believers and non believers do)

This 'What's The Harm' site is pulling cases of extremists. Sure, there's no denying that belief in these paranormal activities cost these people their lives in certain cases, but that's extremism. It's like me pulling up Josef Mengele as a reason science is horrible. It just doesn't work like that.

I could explain why I rant at people. However, I will break it down into 3 to explain it better. I will use psychics, but any crap will do.

1 As a game with friends its fine, even fun. "Oh, he totally guessed my door number! Magic!"

That's just general wankery, so of course.

2 This is where they claim to contact the dead and like. It's sinister so I try and convince people not to do it, but ultimatly it's their choice and doesn't harm anyone but the people involved.

Sinister means, in a nutshell, evil. One might try and contact the dead for benign purposes as well. And how does it harm the people involved, if you don't believe in this 'crap'?

3 is where I draw the line as it harms/effects people who don't believe and in some cases causes serious problems. Psychic detectives that waste police time for example.

Psychic detectives are, as far as I am aware, eschewed by police agencies. Anyone who turns to a P.I. who claims to be psychic does so of their own free will, and do so because they believe, or want to believe. Personally, were I to turn to a psychic detective, it would be only after any conventional means was exhausted and I was completely desperate for some bit of hope that my case might be solved.

So, let's use crop circles. To joke about it being aliens is fun, to seriously claim it's aliens is up to you, but what if there was enforced tin foil hat wearing? Would you be saying "What's so wrong with believing in the paranormal?"

No one is enforcing tin foil hats. If they were, I'd actually probably laugh my ass off before putting one on myself. In any case, you're only presenting an extreme hypothetical scenario. It's unlikely to ever happen, so your argument here really just falls apart.

[Sabre]

This 'What's The Harm' site is pulling cases of extremists. Sure, there's no denying that belief in these paranormal activities cost these people their lives in certain cases, but that's extremism. It's like me pulling up Josef Mengele as a reason science is horrible. It just doesn't work like that.

Fair enough

One might try and contact the dead for benign purposes as well. And how does it harm the people involved, if you don't believe in this 'crap'?

Because it's exploiting the vunerable in that case or simply conning money out of people in most, but again, doesnt effect me so I don't care so much.

Psychic detectives are, as far as I am aware, eschewed by police agencies.

Right. But here at least, police have to look into every lead, so if a psychic publicly involves herself, they have to follow up.

No one is enforcing tin foil hats. If they were, I'd actually probably laugh my ass off before putting one on myself. In any case, you're only presenting an extreme hypothetical scenario. It's unlikely to ever happen, so your argument here really just falls apart.

That's an example. It's extreme because it shows how crazy it is. The reality is just as crazy, but accepted. Cryptography, which is reading someones hand writing to tell there personality, can cost you a job, and that's real and accepted. While not used in court, I believe the american police still use lie detectors. Do they still make people swear on the bible? Anyway, that's the kind of stuff Im on about.

[Xortberg]

Because it's exploiting the vunerable in that case or simply conning money out of people in most, but again, doesnt effect me so I don't care so much.

A'ight.

Right. But here at least, police have to look into every lead, so if a psychic publicly involves herself, they have to follow up.

I can't say my knowledge of the legal systems of any country is expansive (read: I watch CSI), but I'm pretty certain the police would only follow the lead far enough to shut her up. If they did choose to follow her further, then they're just as much at fault logically as she is.

That's an example. It's extreme because it shows how crazy it is. The reality is just as crazy, but accepted. Cryptography, which is reading someones hand writing to tell there personality, can cost you a job, and that's real and accepted. While not used in court, I believe the american police still use lie detectors. Do they still make people swear on the bible? Anyway, that's the kind of stuff Im on about.

I don't believe they make you swear on the Bible, but you do have to actively opt out of it. Not certain, though. It could just be for swearing someone in to office. In any case, that's more a formality than anything.

Cryptography might have some truth to it, though. I know very little about the subject, but take me as an example: I am a very unorganized person, and my untidy handwriting reflects that fact. However, I see what you're saying here, and it does suck, but that's just life. The way I see it, if the boss will fire me based on my handwriting, I probably shouldn't be working for that boss anyway.

[Konchaski]

That's crap. By doubting everything you dont fall for tricks like magical thinking. It's not doubting enough that leads to failure.

By doubting everything you dont fall for tricks like magical thinking.

like magical thinking.

magical thinking

I don't understand what magical thinking has to deal with the sliding scale of idealism and cynicism. By doubting someone's sincerity while at first they might reach out to you - it is possible if you're just that cynical they will move on. (of course, some cynics may say "They never wanted me anyway if they didn't try to get through to me.")

There's really nothing magical about it, jaded as far as I am concerned is that you're aware of the possibilities. Meaning, you know people can be dicks who lie to you.  While cynicism is a world view entirely in the glass is half empty sort of way. Cynics are just as capable of mistakes as anyone else, they are not on some pedestal and above humanity in some shape or form all knowing. It is possible that intellectuals can become cynical or jaded over time, but it's not necessarily universal - for both cynics and intellectuals. Both attitudes (jaded and cynical) can be hurtful in the long run, but I think the cynics would be worse off since they're doubting everything constantly.

I'm not saying to believe everything people tell you, because that's not the way to go through life but doubting everything is also a bit equally ridiculous.

[Sabre]

Cryptography might have some truth to it, though. I know very little about the subject, but take me as an example: I am a very unorganized person, and my untidy handwriting reflects that fact. However, I see what you're saying here, and it does suck, but that's just life. The way I see it, if the boss will fire me based on my handwriting, I probably shouldn't be working for that boss anyway.

What if they aren't stupid, just ignorant. Let's say like you, they believe it either works, or at least has some basis. (It doesn't btw. But let's not turn this into a cryptography thread) They believe that because it's what they were told. Saying that "It's just life" or "Thats the way things are" isn't good enough. When there is a problem, you do something about it.

I don't understand what magical thinking has to deal with the sliding scale of idealism and cynicism. By doubting someone's sincerity while at first they might reach out to you - it is possible if you're just that cynical they will move on. (of course, some cynics may say "They never wanted me anyway if they didn't try to get through to me.")

I don't know what you mean.

Both attitudes (jaded and cynical) can be hurtful in the long run, but I think the cynics would be worse off since they're doubting everything constantly

I'm not saying to believe everything people tell you, because that's not the way to go through life but doubting everything is also a bit equally ridiculous.

How?

[Xortberg]

What if they aren't stupid, just ignorant. Let's say like you, they believe it either works, or at least has some basis. (It doesn't btw. But let's not turn this into a cryptography thread) They believe that because it's what they were told. Saying that "It's just life" or "Thats the way things are" isn't good enough. When there is a problem, you do something about it.

What if they aren't stupid or ignorant? I agree that this shouldn't turn into a cryptography thread, but unless you can provide definitive proof that it's BS, then there is a possibility that there's some truth to it. If there's a possibility of truth, then there's nothing wrong with believing in it.

I don't know what you mean.

I do believe Konchaski here means that being cynical might apply to "magical thinking," but more often it will apply to your relations with other people and other such things, meaning that you're focusing on only one aspect of the argument.

How?

There's really nothing magical about it, jaded as far as I am concerned is that you're aware of the possibilities. Meaning, you know people can be dicks who lie to you.  While cynicism is a world view entirely in the glass is half empty sort of way. Cynics are just as capable of mistakes as anyone else, they are not on some pedestal and above humanity in some shape or form all knowing. It is possible that intellectuals can become cynical or jaded over time, but it's not necessarily universal - for both cynics and intellectuals. Both attitudes (jaded and cynical) can be hurtful in the long run, but I think the cynics would be worse off since they're doubting everything constantly.

I'm not saying to believe everything people tell you, because that's not the way to go through life but doubting everything is also a bit equally ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure it was explained well enough in this post.

EDIT: Cryptography is analyzing and deciphering codes. You were thinking of graphology.

[Konchaski]

What if they aren't stupid, just ignorant. Let's say like you, they believe it either works, or at least has some basis. (It doesn't btw. But let's not turn this into a cryptography thread) They believe that because it's what they were told. Saying that "It's just life" or "Thats the way things are" isn't good enough. When there is a problem, you do something about it.

That I agree with, but just because you're idealistic and optimistic doesn't mean you want to create changes too. I don't accept things as just a part of life, I believe I can motivate some people to change. Cynics are just easily able to fall into "That's just the way things are" as well, in fact I know a lot more cynics that say than idealists. However, on the otherhand of the coin, idealists can get comfortable and satisfied with their thinking while cynics may get so fed up they want to create changes because they are so pissed off. So both sides are capable of action and it's not fair to give credit to either view.