Alright, you furries. This is it. Prove that Krystal isn't a cardboard character

[Milkyway64]

I'm tired of hounding you guys all over the place, and so it's time to finally, in one thread meant for it, see if you guys have any meat or backing to your claims. Why is she the best character of the decade/ever? What sets her apart? What reasons not tied to her being an attractive female does she have for being so great? Make me see this already, as you guys religiously cling to her despite convincing arguments otherwise.

Is this clear enough yet? This thread is meant to settle the Milky vs. Krystal Fanboys war once and for all. There is no "topic" to distract, this thread's entire purpose is for this debate.

So step up to the plate, gentlemen. Step up and put your money where your mouth is.

[Sarita]

I'm giving this topic one chance to stay civil. Once it gets out of hand, it's gone.

Play nice.

[Guest FoXXX]

/thread

[Sideways]

What reasons not tied to her being an attractive female does she have for being so great?

[Dragon Fox 05]

I wouldn't say she's the best character of the decade, and with so many other great games she's pretty far from it. There are obvious reasons as to what sets her apart, seeing how she is the only blue fox in video game history. She is not the most powerful telepath, but any psychic abilities whatsoever definitely gives her an advantage. Yes, in Adventures she played the damsel in distress, but the opening scene is enough to show that she can hold her own in a fair fight. Whether she's a the reason why SF went downhill or not, she is easily become one of the more recognized characters of the series. It makes it tough NOT to mention her attractiveness, but then again she is the most scantily clad Nintendo heroine ever. Krystal also shows in Command that not even her love for Fox will hold her back when her instinct is to help people.

Again, I don't think she's the best character fo the decade, but there are plenty of reasons to show that she is not a shallow character.

[Milkyway64]

See, that's agreeable. While I could counterpoint the "can hold her own in a fight" bit, you're generally not the crowd I'm challenging. Of course Krystal isn't TOTALLY USELESS, it's just she's nowhere near a "complete character." As you said, she's got bits and pieces with potential in them, it's just potential unsatisfied and thus, leaving her very much cardboard and soulless. She doesn't feel like a character so much as she does a puppet of the script, which is sharp contrast to, say, Dante's performance in Devil May Cry 4. He was cheesy and even arguably moreso than Krystal, but his character had a LIFE to it, the life that makes a "character" a "character." Krystal, and a lot of the SF cast actually, lacks this.

So long story short, I have very little to say in combat to that, for it's mostly objective and focuses on what good she does have, as asked. However, I'll again note that this viewpoint isn't what I'm challenging, it's the viewpoint that Krystal -IS- one of the videogame greats, that she can stand beside the legends as truly good.

[Kursed]

Then you have no quarrel with me, As i agree to Dragon Fox's post people are just overdoing this fandom stuff.

I have to however put forth Falco,Leon,panther and Wolf who also fit in the same catagory as missing stuff ,but that is not the topic for that discussion.

[Milkyway64]

I have to however put forth Falco,Leon,panther and Wolf who also fit in the same catagory as missing stuff ,but that is not the topic for that discussion.

Krystal, and a lot of the SF cast actually, lacks this.

Krystal is far from the only victim of it in this series. That's one of the points on why this is so bothersome.

[Thu'um]

Well, This is gunna be a barrel of laughs.

For reasons not even totaly clear to my self, Krystal is my favorite video game character. I love her part onthe team star fox. Carring but strong, she seems to have her own skill to attribute to the team.As well she proved that she could fight along side the Boys in assualt by getting followed just as much as Falco. From the little interashions we have seen in the games fox and krystal really seem to care about each other too.

This may just seem like a bunch of reason i scraped to gather, and it sorta is But, krystal is my favorite character for alot of reasons, some ones i can't even explain. Possibly it's that I can relate to her, or just am extremly fonding of her character ,but regardless. Krystal will always be one of my favorute characters.

[Sabre]

Edgy! Dangerous! Rebel! ect ect ect.

I'm suprised this thread hasn't been shut down, but whatever, here's my opinion on the matter.

People are coming in here with an opinion and are unlikely looking for others opinions, rather a means to attack either now and in the future.

Ultimatly, saying that Krystal isn't canon, is a cardboard character, whatever, can be done with any character from anything. Watch.

"Prove that Samus is a shallow stock character."

"Prove that Cpt. Price isn't just eye candy for the ladies."

"Prove that Wikus isn't a cardboard character."

The same can be done with stories as a whole. Mr K used to bring this one up alot back in the day. The idea is that all stories follow the same structure and path, you just swap out the details.

What I'm saying is that anything can be boiled down to it's elements and then dismissed as crap.

On a related note, the opposate is true. You can deconstrut anything and find deeper meaning or political commentry. Even in crap like Jackass, Saw or any stoner film you can think of.

What works are considered 'deep' or 'shallow' is just eliteism.

[DZComposer]

This is not a political thread, it doesn't go in the pub.

[Xortberg]

Edgy! Dangerous! Rebel! ect ect ect.

I'm suprised this thread hasn't been shut down, but whatever, here's my opinion on the matter.

Yay!

People are coming in here with an opinion and are unlikely looking for others opinions, rather a means to attack either now and in the future.

Ultimatly, saying that Krystal isn't canon, is a cardboard character, whatever, can be done with any character from anything. Watch.

"Prove that Samus is a shallow stock character."

"Prove that Cpt. Price isn't just eye candy for the ladies."

"Prove that Wikus isn't a cardboard character."

Samus is, in actuality, a rather stock character. I assume you mean Cpt. Price from Call of Duty or whatever, so: lolgirlsplayingCoD. Jokes aside, though, you haven't picked the best examples to go on. There's plenty of characters who have actual depth, which can, despite what you may believe, be reasonably measured and backed up.

The same can be done with stories as a whole. Mr K used to bring this one up alot back in the day. The idea is that all stories follow the same structure and path, you just swap out the details.

And those details and the presentation that make it something worthwhile. Krystal has very little depth in detail or in presentation. She's a classic damsel in distress, and while there's nothing inherently wrong with that, that's not how you make a deep character.

What I'm saying is that anything can be boiled down to it's elements and then dismissed as crap.

On a related note, the opposate is true. You can deconstrut anything and find deeper meaning or political commentry. Even in crap like Jackass, Saw or any stoner film you can think of.

What works are considered 'deep' or 'shallow' is just eliteism.

Wrong. My Immortal is horribly shallow. The Lord of the Rings series is incredibly deep. It's not elitism. My Immortal is shameless, horribly written self-insertion wankery. LOTR is a well thought out, expansive world with a rather comprehensive history and mythology found in The Silmarillion.

Tl;dr, character depth is very much real, and Krystal has little to none.

[Milkyway64]

Xort covered for Sabre, and since this was moved AJC will never even see my reply. Disappointing.

I'll reply anyhow:

Well, This is gunna be a barrel of laughs.

For reasons not even totaly clear to my self,

That's already a bad sign.

Krystal is my favorite video game character. I love her part onthe team star fox. Carring but strong, she seems to have her own skill to attribute to the team.

Opinion, opinion, stock trait. With nothing to back anything up, just your word.

As well she proved that she could fight along side the Boys in assualt by getting followed just as much as Falco. From the little interashions we have seen in the games fox and krystal really seem to care about each other too.

Getting tailed in an airfight is a BAD thing, and nooooot really. Fox denies it all over the place.

This may just seem like a bunch of reason i scraped to gather, and it sorta is But, krystal is my favorite character for alot of reasons, some ones i can't even explain. Possibly it's that I can relate to her, or just am extremly fonding of her character ,but regardless. Krystal will always be one of my favorute characters.

And here, we, go. You just admitted that you have no idea, you're just "fond" of her. You claim there's a lot of reasons and not a single (good) one was in the entirety of this post.

[Kursed]

Just because Krystal is somones favorite character says nothing.

Now does this say she's better than the rest? HECK NO!

To the people looking at this forum:I think aside from the  'Cardboard Krystal' theory here Milky is trying to understand why the heck do you think Krystal is better than the rest of the Starfox cast?  Is hit her attributes? Fighting style(s) weapons? , Or is it just because she's simply you favorite character. Now I will list  a couple  thinks about Krystal that I think makes her a good character not the best but gives her advantages and disadvantages that  go along with those.

1.Well she is a girl I don't know what advantage this gives other than the fact she can 'seduce' males to a certain point.

2 Telepath: Although this could be a huge advantage this can also be turned around into a huge disadvantage.  If her opponent knows that she is a telepath and perhaps they are Andross or some genius like that they can develop a weapon to  use against this telepathy.(like a fan-fic awhile back by I think Ziff.)

3.Her staff: Her staff posses a few abilities that make it  not just a staff but a firearm, tool and maybe more I'm missing, however each ability uses energy,  and it's really not clear what types of energy besides the orbs found on Sauria can be used. There is a slight hint that she may be able to charge its energy herself since at the beginning of the game she was firing her staff i believe. but this is a theory and I'm not Certain that  she used her staff at the beginning of the game.(Bad memory) however if this were true this would also be a disadvantage because if she could charge it herself she'd have to be very careful not to drain too much energy from herself into the staff.

[Fire Yoshi]

Why is she the best character of the decade/ever?

Just because Krystal is somones favorite character says nothing.

Now does this say she's better than the rest? HECK NO!

To the people looking at this forum:I think aside from the  'Cardboard Krystal' theory here Milky is trying to understand why the heck do you think Krystal is better than the rest of the Starfox cast?  Is hit her attributes? Fighting style(s) weapons? , Or is it just because she's simply you favorite character.

:P

[Milkyway64]

Just because Krystal is somones favorite character says nothing.

Now does this say she's better than the rest? HECK NO!

To the people looking at this forum:I think aside from the  'Cardboard Krystal' theory here Milky is trying to understand why the heck do you think Krystal is better than the rest of the Starfox cast?  Is hit her attributes? Fighting style(s) weapons? , Or is it just because she's simply you favorite character. Now I will list  a couple  thinks about Krystal that I think makes her a good character not the best but gives her advantages and disadvantages that  go along with those.

This topic sorta broke off the "best character of the decade" thread, so it goes a bit beyond just this series, otherwise you've hit the nail on the head. I'm out to find out why Krystal is so great to over half the people here, to the point where she wins an award she does not honestly deserve.

It feels weird to do this with someone on my side (I think...?) but the points:

1.Well she is a girl I don't know what advantage this gives other than the fact she can 'seduce' males to a certain point.

2 Telepath: Although this could be a huge advantage this can also be turned around into a huge disadvantage.  If her opponent knows that she is a telepath and perhaps they are Andross or some genius like that they can develop a weapon to  use against this telepathy.(like a fan-fic awhile back by I think Ziff.)

3.Her staff: Her staff posses a few abilities that make it  not just a staff but a firearm, tool and maybe more I'm missing, however each ability uses energy,  and it's really not clear what types of energy besides the orbs found on Sauria can be used. There is a slight hint that she may be able to charge its energy herself since at the beginning of the game she was firing her staff i believe. but this is a theory and I'm not Certain that  she used her staff at the beginning of the game.(Bad memory) however if this were true this would also be a disadvantage because if she could charge it herself she'd have to be very careful not to drain too much energy from herself into the staff.

1. is a reason only valid for diversity, really. She's plenty good at seduction too though, which might well be the answer to her rabid fanbase.

2. Telepathy is an okay ability to have, but it's a tad overused and is in no way unique to Krystal. There are plenty of telepathic female leads in plenty of different games.

3. is really kind of a mixed bag. That staff IS a moderately interesting weapon, although misplaced in a sci fi videogame about spacefurries going PEW PEW PEW and launching smartbombs. Still, the staff has no connection to her character other than that being what she at one point used as a weapon. It hasn't been in enough of her in game appearances to be totally associated to her like Link to the Master Sword.

[Kursed]

to point2:That's your opinion milky

to Point3:once again your opinion as far as I know every sci-fi has it's primitive stuff, but you could think about the staff as a advanced weapon too. Lightsabers may seem primitive ,but the technology that makes them work is far from primitive. So going with that point the staff could be advanced Cerinian technology as appose To a 'magic' Staff.  Think about it to the Saurians a Arwing is magic. So 'magic' is a relative term.

[Milkyway64]

to point2:That's your opinion milky

to Point3:once again your opinion as far as I know every sci-fi has it's primitive stuff, but you could think about the staff as a advanced weapon too. Lightsabers may seem primitive ,but the technology that makes them work is far from primitive. So going with that point the staff could be advanced Cerinian technology as appose To a 'magic' Staff.  Think about it to the Saurians a Arwing is magic. So 'magic' is a relative term.

Point 2 can be proven with another Nintendo franchise. Princess Zelda. Again, hardly unique to Krystal or new.

Point 3 deals with consistency. The primitive stuff came from nowhere and the fact that we never see the staff again after Adventures is another point against it. And again, it's not even integrated into her character. -FOX- used the staff more than she did.

[Dragon Fox 05]

I'm going to throw an idea in here: she could possibly be one of the best characters to people MOSTLY because she's a girl.

I'm not just saying that this is true for just male gamers, but all gamers in general. If Krsytal and all her romantic scenes with Fox were switched out, and replaced with just another guy that's good enough to be on the StarFox team, would that be interesting? What would make him special enough to be talked about relentlessly by gamers? The telekinesis and staff wouldn't be enough. But a female who had the same things, now that changes everything. Think about it. She is one of the few girls to be a female hero in Nintendo's long history, and the most scantily clad at that. It explains why she has such a big fanbase, and how she got voted character of the year in Nintendo Power.

So, in short, she is one of the best characters out there because she is a girl.

(I'm not being sexist, that's something I don't want people to think I am.)

[Milkyway64]

I'm going to throw an idea in here: she could possibly be one of the best characters to people MOSTLY because she's a girl.

I'm not just saying that this is true for just male gamers, but all gamers in general. If Krsytal and all her romantic scenes with Fox were switched out, and replaced with just another guy that's good enough to be on the StarFox team, would that be interesting?

Hey, guess what? Plenty of female leads fill this role. This is nothing unique to Krystal.

What would make him special enough to be talked about relentlessly by gamers? The telekinesis and staff wouldn't be enough. But a female who had the same things, now that changes everything. Think about it. She is one of the few girls to be a female hero in Nintendo's long history, and the most scantily clad at that. It explains why she has such a big fanbase, and how she got voted character of the year in Nintendo Power.

So, in short, she is one of the best characters out there because she is a girl.

Absolutely correct. Well, mostly. I bolded the big part for you. This is all nothing to do with Krystal's character, but her appeal. She's STILL every bit as stock and cardboard as she ever was, but she has BOOBIES to go along with that telepathy that hardly exists and that staff she's never used. The post IS mostly correct, but again it says nothing about her character, only that she's hot and that's why people like her. I KNOW that. I just want to know what makes her "good" and unique, as so many female leads have done this before.

...Oh wait, something just hit me. Out of all of those female leads, none of them were anthros, were they? Krystal stands out because she also appeals to their fetish, putting her above the likes of Laura Croft and Samus. I think it's pretty safe to say this is what's going on, nothing to do with her character.

[Kursed]

Hey, guess what? Plenty of female leads fill this role. This is nothing unique to Krystal.

Absolutely correct. Well, mostly. I bolded the big part for you. This is all nothing to do with Krystal's character, but her appeal. She's STILL every bit as stock and cardboard as she ever was, but she has BOOBIES to go along with that telepathy that hardly exists and that staff she's never used. The post IS mostly correct, but again it says nothing about her character, only that she's hot and that's why people like her. I KNOW that. I just want to know what makes her "good" and unique, as so many female leads have done this before.

...Oh wait, something just hit me. Out of all of those female leads, none of them were anthros, were they? Krystal stands out because she also appeals to their fetish, putting her above the likes of Laura Croft and Samus. I think it's pretty safe to say this is what's going on, nothing to do with her character.

Well sticking a human female into the series would not have fit. I'd like to point out that just because a  indian wears such skimpy clothes does not mean their perverted or anything  the problem with the world today is that we don't look at the artistic Value of stuff like this instead we look at the perverted value of it.

[Matrilwood]

What makes the characters in the StarFox series is not the games themselves. It is the fan-fiction that is inspired by the series. As a game it is difficult to fully flesh out any character without cutting into the game-play, the Spyro series attempted to do this but was met with criticism. An example is Falco. Falco is the manliest character in the Star-Fox series, but in fan-fiction he is represented as being gay, which is often associated with the opposite of manliness. This not only fills out Falco as a character, but effects the portrayal of the entire male cast for being less manly than the gay guy.

The reason lies in the antithesis (I'll keep this part brief). Krystal is one of the few female characters in the Nintendo franchise with in game sex appeal, omitting the female characters in the infamous "Conkor's bad fur day" all of which were represented as objects.

This means that the inevitable fan-fiction would initially represent Krystal as a sex symbol. After the initial "Honey-Moon" phase, Krystal was fleshed out by fan-fiction to become the Krystal known today, not through the game developers. As an example in fan-fiction she is represented as a bad-girl type character, hence she is perceived as a bad-girl type despite these qualities not showing through in the game.

[Milkyway64]

Well sticking a human female into the series would not have fit. I'd like to point out that just because a  indian wears such skimpy clothes does not mean their perverted or anything  the problem with the world today is that we don't look at the artistic Value of stuff like this instead we look at the perverted value of it.

Of course not, but if Krystal was human, would you all like her as much? And that second point holds little water, as Krystal was not a primal indian (she flies a space ship in Adventures and fared through space, not to mention the just as "offensive" oufit Assault gave the newer, more "civilized" Krystal.

What makes the characters in the StarFox series is not the games themselves. It is the fan-fiction that is inspired by the series. As a game it is difficult to fully flesh out any character without cutting into the game-play, the Spyro series attempted to do this but was met with criticism. An example is Falco. Falco is the manliest character in the Star-Fox series, but in fan-fiction he is represented as being gay, which is often associated with the opposite of manliness. This not only fills out Falco as a character, but effects the portrayal of the entire male cast for being less manly than the gay guy.

No. This is an incredibly piss poor excuse and fanfiction means nothing to a character. Lots of games fleshed out their characters in game nicely, and Spyro failed because it did it BADLY and changed the game formula up completely.

The reason lies in the antithesis (I'll keep this part brief). Krystal is one of the few female characters in the Nintendo franchise with in game sex appeal, omitting the female characters in the infamous "Conkor's bad fur day" all of which were represented as objects.

Yes. And? I already realize that she's hot and that's a reason for interest. It's just not any proof for a good CHARACTER, even if it suggests there's a market of people that'd by a calendar featuring her.

This means that the inevitable fan-fiction would initially represent Krystal as a sex symbol. After the initial "Honey-Moon" phase, Krystal was fleshed out by fan-fiction to become the Krystal known today, not through the game developers. As an example in fan-fiction she is represented as a bad-girl type character, hence she is perceived as a bad-girl type despite these qualities not showing through in the game.

Again, totally bullshit, totally an excuse. I don't even have to go into how and why fantards ruin everything. Krystal's character, as in what she was made as, NOT what she was turned into by fur-wanks, is weak. That fanfic representation is also weak, but it doesn't even COUNT as it's NOT. KRYSTAL.

[Vulvokunvrii]

Well i wouldn't call "the best character of all time" but, there have been alot fo StarFox games with not that many girls "doing something" and i guess this was the first time for that to happen. And i mean the Krazoa palace; now that i think of it, was like climbing a tall tower to find the damsle in distress-in this case, it was Krystal-so to me, its just the typical "love interst" of most video games these days, so im not fazed by her "beauty". My "girl" is War, i love it (well fantiszed about ti and make stories any way  )!

Also think fo ti this way: When there are new Female actresses and such, people fall head-over-heels for them for many of thier personal reasons, so its not exactly that different in this insrance now. ....Thts all i can think up at any rate.

[Xortberg]

What makes the characters in the StarFox series is not the games themselves. It is the fan-fiction that is inspired by the series.

This means that the inevitable fan-fiction would initially represent Krystal as a sex symbol. After the initial "Honey-Moon" phase, Krystal was fleshed out by fan-fiction to become the Krystal known today, not through the game developers. As an example in fan-fiction she is represented as a bad-girl type character, hence she is perceived as a bad-girl type despite these qualities not showing through in the game.

No. Just no. I am an avid fanfiction author/reader, and no. What the fanbase does with the characters does not make them good. It's what the designers so with them. I could easily write an epic, in-depth narrative focusing on the events taking place in Portal from Chell's point of view, focusing on, instead of the events themselves, her reaction and likely descent into madness. That doesn't change the fact that, in reality, Chell is completely undeveloped and barely even qualifies as a character.

Another example: I love Kingdom Hearts fanfics. Specifically, Axel/Larxene. They're a wonderful pair... in the fandom. In the actual games, there's almost nothing to suggest a romantic relationship, but I still love reading those fics. However, that has nothing to do with judging the characters in the context of the games themselves. In the games, Larxene is nowhere near developed enough to actually have all that much depth, and so I recognize that as a character her actual impact is limited.

Tl;dr, fanfics do not make a character good. The game designers do.