Alright, you furries. This is it. Prove that Krystal isn't a cardboard character

[Milkyway64]

I think not. I enjoy her responses to things in assualt. Such as "They will never get away with this!" prehaps she doesn't act like a real person. But does leon Kenedey or Many other video game Characters? And this is not reason for being a bad video game character.

That's a stock, overused line. And no, Leon barely does either and nor does any Mario character. They weren't supposed to. You know why I'm singling out Krystal? Because Mario fans don't try to bullshit that Mario is deep. Krystal fans do.  Krystal fans pretend their stock character somehow has actual character meat on her when, again, there's been zero evidence presented in this topic or anywhere eles in the entire damned fandom.

[Vindr]

Dude, give it up, you're attracted to her, everyone who remotely says they like her is attracted to her, in fact saying otherwise is changing the meaning of the word.

[Thu'um]

That's a stock, overused line. And no, Leon barely does either and nor does any Mario character. They weren't supposed to. You know why I'm singling out Krystal? Because Mario fans don't try to bullshit that Mario is deep. Krystal fans do.  Krystal fans pretend their stock character somehow has actual character meat on her when, again, there's been zero evidence presented in this topic or anywhere eles in the entire damned fandom.

Mario's video game format is quite difrent! Besides, how could i show you evidence of character? How do i prove that to you?

The point being is krystal has emotions! She seems to care for fox, about saruia, about tricky. She has been ditermend, sad, horrifeid, flatered, serious, concerended. do i need say more? Of cousre i have full confidence you shall post again.

[Milkyway64]

Mario's video game format is quite difrent! Besides, how could i show you evidence of character? How do i prove that to you?

What genre a character is in makes little difference. And you easily can. Look at most RPG characters. Lucca from Chrono Trigger has evidence for her in the things she has done and sympathetical moments she has had while still being a quirky science girl building TELEPORTERS TO THE APOCOLYPSE. Krystal has said a buch of stock phrases in inconsistent voice acting, and those "emotions" you listed were either barely there or horribly presented. Where has she shown horror? Where did she show anger that wasn't just her PMS'ing at something? How does she care about tricky having only met him in Assault?

[Vindr]

Besides, how could i show you evidence of character? How do i prove that to you?

Name two things for me about Krystal:

1. A quirk about her personality, not related to flirtatious behavior or sexuality and prove it, video my good man.

2. A flaw in her personality. This is what makes a great character. And how does she honestly deal with it/work with it? (See also, Wikus van de Merwe from District 9)

Proof, video obviously, now go forth, and attempt to defy us!

[Kursed]

Also to ice down this heated debate a bit Krystal is not the only character in the series who is a cardboard character. Sadly.

I do wish Nintendo would  take their eyes out of their wii's and  flesh out these characters more.

What krystal has going for her besides being attractive.

She is the sol  survior of a unknown planet...

she has a staff that seems to have vanished from existance.

she appears to be pretty athlethic.

either way she really and sadly doesn't have much going for her. I suppose you can't really blame her after all she was pushed into a game seris she probably would have never belonged in had the game not been rushed. You could Also blame  nintendo for rushing the production of the game itself.

[Vindr]

I am merely waiting for an answer to my challenge.

Correct, it is not Krystal, it is the entire cast that is made of cardboard.

We only made the statement that Krystal receieves, "special attention", if you will. And despite the fact that many fans feel a deep connection, we claim that there is no grounds for any connection whatsoever.

Nintendo has maybe some to do with it, but it is not relevant to the discussion.

[Kursed]

I am merely waiting for an answer to my challenge.

Correct, it is not Krystal, it is the entire cast that is made of cardboard.

We only made the statement that Krystal receieves, "special attention", if you will. And despite the fact that many fans feel a deep connect, we claim that there is no grounds for any connection whatsoever.

sorry misinterpreting. The debate seemed a little too heated for my taste so I simply attempted to cool it down.

Before I forget. I think it's the fact that Krystal is a  girl that could be one of these false connections which I think  can be applied to many other game females...

[Vindr]

I would also like him to read this before he posts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Wikipedia shmikipedia, just read it.

Edit: true, kursed, but there's games where the female in videogames aren't cardboard, ever hear of a little game series called Uncharted?

[Kursed]

Not one I've played. but yes i have heard of it.

[Vindr]

Probably one of the better games that illustrates character development and fullness. A great example.

[Sabre]

Why has this topic not been locked yet? It's just yelling now. Like 2 dogs barking at each other in the street. Neither have an open mind or are willing to entertain oposing arguments.

As for the "Mary Sue" argument. That is flawed as technically ANY lead character or side kick is this. Wikipedia mentions startrek, but there are others.

As I said at the start of the thread, making the challenge "Why does character X not suck?" is unwinnable as all can be boiled down to the base mechanics. It's like saying a teddy bear has no value because it's just thread and cotton. You can slap down any agrument presented with that.

While I wouldn't like or care to see it, it would be interesting to see this thread countered with "Prove that Krystal is not the best character ever." and it would play out exactly the same.

[Star Fox Runner]

Why has this topic not been locked yet? It's just yelling now. Like 2 dogs barking at each other in the street. Neither have an open mind or are willing to entertain oposing arguments.

As for the "Mary Sue" argument. That is flawed as technically ANY lead character or side kick is this. Wikipedia mentions startrek, but there are others.

As I said at the start of the thread, making the challenge "Why does character X not suck?" is unwinnable as all can be boiled down to the base mechanics. It's like saying a teddy bear has no value because it's just thread and cotton. You can slap down any agrument presented with that.

While I wouldn't like or care to see it, it would be interesting to see this thread countered with "Prove that Krystal is not the best character ever." and it would play out exactly the same.

^ I agree with this statement.

[Milkyway64]

As for the "Mary Sue" argument. That is flawed as technically ANY lead character or side kick is this.

Mind explaining this theory? Mary sues are only annoying, perfect goody characters who always does the right thing and is prepared for it, not the main one.

As I said at the start of the thread, making the challenge "Why does character X not suck?" is unwinnable as all can be boiled down to the base mechanics. It's like saying a teddy bear has no value because it's just thread and cotton. You can slap down any agrument presented with that.

Are Mario and Dante (Devil May Cry) the same even though they are two male leads with an affinity for red and doing impossible aerial acrobatics? Didn't think so. Characters by definition have traits and quirks to set them apart. You know this as you wrote this little tidbit in "How to play a better RP:

3- Quirks

Even if it never comes up, I find it worth giving a character a quirk. Be it a bit of history or an unusual kink. Maybe he wanted to be doctor, but failed the exams. Maybe he likes to wear ladies underwear. While it seems pointless, it will greatly help when it comes to making a character a bit more believable.

TIP- The big baddy should always have a motive beyond simply being nasty. Again, it will probley never come up, but can really get you out of a writers block and will make them seem much more then a meer token villain.

You know fully well that characters can be better than others, more defined, more believable. USING these little things, it's possible to determine the work and effort put into a character, and whether or not they are deep and sympathetical or just someone who just does and says stuff because the script demands it. Krystal falls on the latter, objectively speaking, and that's what this topic is about.

While I wouldn't like or care to see it, it would be interesting to see this thread countered with "Prove that Krystal is not the best character ever." and it would play out exactly the same.

No it wouldn't, no one on SFO bothers explaining or even trying with any of their arguments so it'd be just as one sided.

[Thu'um]

Why has this topic not been locked yet? It's just yelling now. Like 2 dogs barking at each other in the street. Neither have an open mind or are willing to entertain oposing arguments.

As for the "Mary Sue" argument. That is flawed as technically ANY lead character or side kick is this. Wikipedia mentions startrek, but there are others.

As I said at the start of the thread, making the challenge "Why does character X not suck?" is unwinnable as all can be boiled down to the base mechanics. It's like saying a teddy bear has no value because it's just thread and cotton. You can slap down any agrument presented with that.

While I wouldn't like or care to see it, it would be interesting to see this thread countered with "Prove that Krystal is not the best character ever." and it would play out exactly the same.

Best stae ment here! I was thinking off posting thsi my self

[Vindr]

Honestly, I don't like Mary sues, sometimes their blown way too much out of proportion or ruin the story in many cases, not to say that I think Star fox has a good story, its a game for Christs sake.

By the way, ajc3000fox, you have yet to respond to my challenge.

[Sabre]

Im not going to get involved in the barking match. I will however point out why the mary sue is bollocks. It's something known as the toupe falacy, where in all mary sues are in a sence the BAD mary sues.

A mary sue is defined as a flawless character who acts as the authors wish forfilment. This means any competent hero from almost any story is this. Indiana Jones, Luke Skywalker, Captian Kirk, Starfox, Superman, James Bond, Mario, these are all 'classic' characters that are technically mary sues.

So, to say that X is a mary sue is justification, not the reason. So you started with a dislike of krystal for whatever reason, and then went looking for justification.

[Milkyway64]

Only I don't dislike Krystal, I dislike her rabid fanbase.  And no, there's a difference between competent main character and mary sue. There's a line between overcoming the odds, and what translates to godmodding. Even if your argument did stand, Krystal is in the supporting cast, not the lead.

[Sabre]

Not really. A mary sue doesn't have to be the lead cast. Even if it did, starfox is a team. It's like justice league or green lanture corps.

However, the main issue is that you say there is a difference between overcoming the odds and godmodding. True. But look at the characters mentioned again. How are they not god modding? Superman in partucular.

[Kursed]

Not really. A mary sue doesn't have to be the lead cast. Even if it did, starfox is a team. It's like justice league or green lanture corps.

However, the main issue is that you say there is a difference between overcoming the odds and godmodding. True. But look at the characters mentioned again. How are they not god modding? Superman in partucular.

do you notice how much Superman is thrown around when he's suppose to be invincibkle yet he acts like he's hurt by things that shouldn't be hurting him?

Now would you say Tails in the supporting Role is godmodding?

[Guest Senshi]

x

[ballisticwaffles]

I can't proove she isn't a cardboard cut out, but she's awesome the way she is, and I know someone who can RP as her near Perfect! So, who cares about who hates her and who doesn't? We just do this kinda stuff for fun!

ANyone can Rp her perfectly beacuse her personality is that of wet cardboard. Its her lack of defining traits and personality that have people wondering just how she got so popular. hell, sally from The adventures of Sonic the hedgehog is a better charecter than krystal.How come she isnt as popular?

[Kursed]

I know man where the heck is Sally?

[Milkyway64]

ANyone can Rp her perfectly beacuse her personality is that of wet cardboard. Its her lack of defining traits and personality that have people wondering just how she got so popular. hell, sally from The adventures of Sonic the hedgehog is a better charecter than krystal.How come she isnt as popular?

Beat me to it.

How to RP Krystal:

Be polite

Laugh/giggle occasionally

Rage at injustice

Everything else is totally blank and up to whatever you want to do.

Not really. A mary sue doesn't have to be the lead cast. Even if it did, starfox is a team. It's like justice league or green lanture corps.

Right, but you were implying that the lead was instantly a sue. A really good example of a mary sue in a relatively recent game is Judith, from Tales of Vesperia. She's the typical lancer who wears what amounts to underwear + a cape-thing. This isn't uncommon in fantasy, but it does raise a few questions in some scenes, where she seems to pull exactly what the party needs out of nowhere. Party needs a ladder? In comes Judith with one in hand! Need a map? Judith's got ya covered? Need to communicate with monsters? Judith's your (wo)man.  Need history on any given location that wasn't already supplied by the human library princess? Heeeere's Judith! Need another ladder? Guess who.

Even her faults were played to just making her character more "perfect." She did all this as a relatively unimportant side character. She could have been replaced by a convoy the dog dragged around full of Rita's inventions and very little of the plot would have had to be rewritten. This is a sue. The main character overcoming odds, even if the bad guy should have won, is a different sort of category. As Kursed pointed out, Superman had moments where we was losing even if the writers only did so in order to not make everything so one sided. Judith, as my memory serves, never had any moment where she was anything less "in charge" outside of gameplay related failures.

Others, like Mario, aren't characters so much as they are avatars for a game. Samus falls under this, too. Pre Other M, she isn't a character so much as she is the embodiment of the player exploring a vast planet bombing every time in search of hidden secrets. Mario isn't his own guy so much as he is the player jumping through levels and having fun as well as Nintendo's money machine. They are videogame characters in their most basic form, whereas cartoon, comic, and more literative characters in general have to have something a little more.

[ThePointingMan]

I wish I could refind a video I saw of a guy explaining this exact thing, only with Twilight...