Recent Events...

[DZComposer]

Let me clear some things up that were brought-up in today's mystery drama:

Mr. Krystal: Mr. Krystal left due to a philosophical impasse. His view of morality contradicted mine. It was his idea to leave, despite my protest. I did not force him out, and as a matter of fact, I tried hard to find a compromise so that he could stay. Sadly, that compromise was not to be found. I have never tried to take credit for the things Mr. K has done, and continue to this day to acknowledge his contributions to SFO. This place would not be what it is had he not been there.

Dermot: I have a great respect for Dermot, despite his flaws. Dermot is the reason there is an English Language SF Fanbase. Dermot was the founder of MouthOff, the first major Enghish-Language SF community. He wanted to fit in, but, sadly, it didn't work out. I tried to accommodate him while still trying to be fair to the community. There was no easy solution to this. In the end, Dermot and I reached the conclusion that taking a break from SFO was in his best interest. He hasn't returned yet, but if he ever does he is still welcome here.

Julius: Julius PMed me about Milky. I DID investigate it. Julius showed me what Milky sent to him, and Milky showed me what Julius sent to him. The messages had the same tone and similar language. I felt the most reasonable thing to do was to tell them to leave eachother alone, which I did. Next thing I know, Julius leaves. I am not sure if this is why or not.

User: User was appointed in an expedited fashion because we lost a full mod during a sudden spike in memberships. It wasn't my idea, but I went along with it because I felt it was in the best interest of the community, as User had prior mod experience. I made it very clear to those who proposed this that it would be the only time we do it.

Siss: Sissi WAS NOT specially appointed. She was picked through the normal process. There were 2 Mod Slots, and 4 applicants. Two candidates stood out over the others: Asper got one slot, Sissi got the other.

Warnings: Warnings are just warnings. They only matter if you manage to accumulate a whole bunch of them quick enough to trigger the auto-temp-ban. So far, to my knowledge, NO ONE has hit that threshold.

Milky, Xort, and Rob: I didn't feel like what they were doing initially was worth much more than telling them to ease off. The problem is they started to be smart-asses about it. Steve went ahead and temp-banned Milky.

While they clearly shouldn't have been smart-asses about it, some of you need to realize the the staff are not babysitters. We cannot punish people because they said something petty that most people would just ignore, that you happen to find offensive. Being minorly offended is a fact of life. It happens. Most of us just thing "What an asshole" and go about our day. I do realize that some of you are more sensitive to it.

The problem is, that some of you respond to the offensive statement with a similar statement. Then a back-and-forth starts, and by the time I get PMed about it, there is enough on both sides that I can't do anything other than tell the parties to leave eachother alone, as happened with Julius.

If you have any suggestions, the floor is open.

[TheRedFox8]

I'm going to say what I said on the other thread before it got locked.

As Mr. Ike would say, "I fight for my friends," even though I am just a guy on the sidelines.

I  honestly think we should stop being at each others' throats. I myself  am thinking about leaving because of the way my friends are being  treated. I won't say who, but I am starting to get a little angry with  the way they are treated.

I believe this site is a sinking ship.  New users who would be starting the next generations with fresh ideas  and whatnot will most likely be turned away by all the gunfire flying  around on the boards. What happens when new users are turned away, the  word gets out that "SF-O is a place to avoid" and everyone who gets fed  up leaves, what next? It will end up being a lifeless husk, the  remaining users will get bored and eventually part ways, leaving the  site a barren wasteland with a dirty past.

I don't want to see  SF-O head down that path. I think we should just drop the gunfire and  get on with our lives. People get on the internet to relieve stress,  talk with friends, and to get a way from their normal life temporarily.  If that is deprived of them... I shudder to think what would happen.

Rant mode off.

[DZComposer]

The problem with being vague is it doesn't lead to things being fixed. I don't know who the friends are or what actions against them you refer to, and whether or not they were at the hands of the staff.

If I don't know what people feel is the problem, I can't do anything about it.

[TheRedFox8]

It's just that I have noticed is that plenty of members are shooting stuff at each other complaining about the staff, how other members suck, and et cetera. I have really seen nothing particularly "bad" done from the staff, and it makes me sad. I'm respectful of the people in charge of me and I try my very best not to piss them off. If I do for some reason, I make an effort as soon as possible to help fix the problem.

I feel all of the fighting needs to be done via PMs and keep the "normal" stuff public. There's nothing a new member wants to see if it involves a bunch of fighting.

[DZComposer]

A couple of things I think this community has trouble differentiating are trolling and debate. From time to time, people get offended when their opinions are challenged, and they start accusing the dissenter of trolling.

Trolling is an intentional act. It is being mean for the sole purpose of getting a reaction. Debate is not trolling, nor is it flaming either. Flaming is intentional insulting.

[Tiberius]

I sent steve two ideas to prevent this from happening again.

[TheRedFox8]

A couple of things I think this community has trouble differentiating are trolling and debate. From time to time, people get offended when their opinions are challenged, and they start accusing the dissenter of trolling.

Trolling is an intentional act. It is being mean for the sole purpose of getting a reaction. Debate is not trolling, nor is flaming either.

I agree.

I consider a debate as in a argument over something as simple as who is the best Sonic character.

However, I consider it trolling when someone flat out states that he is tired of Veteran's Day and Memorial Day. Yes, it has happened.

[Tiberius]

Well I think its not what people say but how they say irlt which blows stuff out of proportion and starts the flames. Its like saying dont do that stupid instead of dont do that, you might get hurt.

["User"]

The problem is, that some of you respond to the offensive statement with a similar statement. Then a back-and-forth starts, and by the time I get PMed about it, there is enough on both sides that I can't do anything other than tell the parties to leave eachother alone, as happened with Julius.

If I might add to this DZ I really think a viable alternative to posting an offensive statement in retort they should just report the post.  Full mods and Admins get emails every time a report is send.  From what I've seen only a couple of members actively report posts (and even this is sporadic at times).  We get on average a few hundred posts per day and since many of us have full time jobs, mates etc it's very difficult for us to keep up with every topic and every post.  Members, it would make our job a HELL of a lot easier if you use the report feature on posts you find offensive or against the rules.  That prioritize what needs to be looked at.  Please try to make this a regular habit.

I get all email sent to my blackberry so usually I know about reported posts instantly.

A couple of things I think this community has trouble differentiating are trolling and debate. From time to time, people get offended when their opinions are challenged, and they start accusing the dissenter of trolling.

Trolling is an intentional act. It is being mean for the sole purpose of getting a reaction. Debate is not trolling, nor is it flaming either. Flaming is intentional insulting.

THIS.  Most of the stuff I see that people say is trolling really is just a heated debate or strong disagreement.

However, I consider it trolling when someone flat out states that he is tired of Veteran's Day and Memorial Day. Yes, it has happened.

And, like I said earlier when something like this happen it's best to use the report feature rather then provoke the other people even more.  There are many topics that are active in a day and, as I already mentioned it's very difficult to keep track of where the drama is without visiting dozens of topics when I get home from work lol

[Scott7]

I feel all of the fighting needs to be done via PMs and keep the "normal" stuff public. There's nothing a new member wants to see if it involves a bunch of fighting.

I agree with most of what you are saying and Your right, a fair amount of us here are fortunetly like that. Kursed did give me alot support during 'Enough is enough' when Milky was making me to pressured to even make a reply... Seriously, thanks dude. ^^

I'm sorry but i have to partially disagree with that quote... Alot of the problems that were claimed today were discussed before hand with Pm's.

At the time it made both sides difficult to understand when the admins were trying to sort things out, I easier example of explaining when managing my gmod server, someone happens but I wasn't in the same builing where the incident took place so i had no idea who was telling the truth. (and trust me Kid's used to lie on the game constantly before the VAC was modified and most wall hacker'as were banned from every single secure game on steam. If you look on garrysmod.org you'll find hundreds of kind's that have been donwloaded by them.)

[DZComposer]

Another thing: spreading vitriol about the staff doesn't help anything. I'm mainly speaking to those of you who hang out on Kursed's board that walk into every drama with something critical to say. I hate to single you guys out, but since you guys show up every time I feel that it is warranted. I would like to arrange a discussion with you guys about it at some point, as it is counterproductive, is usually based on rumor or incomplete understanding of what happened. It fractures the community to have that going on repeatedly, especially when you form an echo chamber.

[Kursed]

The problem with being vague is it doesn't lead to things being fixed. I don't know who the friends are or what actions against them you refer to, and whether or not they were at the hands of the staff.

If I don't know what people feel is the problem, I can't do anything about it.

Honestly Dz i don't blame you for  Mr.K leaving I admit I feel it was better here before he left... That's alli have to say on the matter and umm check your pm's please.

[Robert Monroe]

I'll be posting my thoughts on these matters later due to missing out all the drama earlier.

[DZComposer]

...Mr.K leaving I admit I feel it was better here before he left...

I don't entirely disagree with that. As I said, I didn't want him to leave.

umm check your pm's please.

If you just sent me one, it didn't go through

I also tend to multitask, so just because I don't reply to a PM doesn't necessarily mean I didn't read it. I also tend to not reply to PMs that I don't feel need replies (as an admin, I get too many PMs to reply to every single one, especially on days like today). If you don't get a reply and you want one, feel free to send me a "Response please?" PM.

I'll be posting my thoughts on these matters later due to missing out all the drama earlier.

Do yourself a favor and don't be a smartass when you make that post.

[Tiberius]

In my opinion itd be better not to post it at all.

[DZComposer]

He has as much a right to post a defense as you do an accusation. So long as he's not being rude.

[Kursed]

Another thing: spreading vitriol about the staff doesn't help anything. I'm mainly speaking to those of you who hang out on Kursed's board that walk into every drama with something critical to say. I hate to single you guys out, but since you guys show up every time I feel that it is warranted. I would like to arrange a discussion with you guys about it at some point, as it is counterproductive, is usually based on rumor or incomplete understanding of what happened. It fractures the community to have that going on repeatedly, especially when you form an echo chamber.

I don't entirely disagree with that. As I said, I didn't want him to leave.

If you just sent me one, it didn't go through

I also tend to multitask, so just because I don't reply to a PM doesn't necessarily mean I didn't read it. I also tend to not reply to PMs that I don't feel need replies (as an admin, I get too many PMs to reply to every single one, especially on days like today). If you don't get a reply and you want one, feel free to send me a "Response please?" PM.

Do yourself a favor and don't be a smartass when you make that post.

I re sent the pm and umm yeah i'm sorry about that i really shouldn't have let that go on...I haven't really been the owner of a active board for awhile so....still I shouldn't have let that go on.

[fox1235]

Is there anyway to restore Julius's account?

[Kursed]

well first of all he has to want to come back.

[DZComposer]

No. If an account is deleted, it is dropped from the database (so, don't delete your account unless you're REALLY sure you won't use it again. Probably not a good idea to do it as knee-jerk thing). Though if he remembers his postcount, I'll manually set that back if he decides to come back.

[Kursed]

would you like me to tell him that Dz?

[DZComposer]

If you want to. It's up to him if he wants to come back.

[Robert Monroe]

Do yourself a favor and don't be a smartass when you make that post.

You should know me better than to be smartassy over sensitive issues.

In my opinion itd be better not to post it at all.

I didn't ask you for your opinion about my opinions.

See this:

He has as much a right to post a defense as you do an accusation. So long as he's not being rude.

Now then, that post I was gonna make...

First of all, I am not paticularly happy a post was made to call out on myself, Milky and Xort. I am not naive, to be sure, and I know a ton of people dislike us. And personally, I don't care -too- much, but if people have problems then they need to address them in private. The only time I ever got PMs from people I had offended was from Dermot (of all pepople) and Mr. Nintendo, both times which I managed to sort things out in private. If you hate me, then hate me. If you got something to say about it, then say it, instead of brooding over it and then blowing up in a big damn topic that was essentially hatemongering. This especially applies to Julius, who I didn't even know disliked me until he left, and unlik everyone else he never gave off any "subtle" hints about this, and furthermore is I wanted to -like- Julius. But hey, if he's gonna be butthurt and leave over a fight where both he and Milk were being assholes, that's his choice.

My second thing to be said about that topic is while I disapprove of Milky going Ultimate Rage Mode on Kursed and OWA in paticular, none of you other blokes were ding any better (OWA, Tiberius and Kursed in paticular). Kursed kept constantly quoting things he found "offensive" in Milky's posts, without either 1: pointing out why they offend him, or 2: actually countering the points Milky repeatedly made against him. For OWA to say Kursed was "supporting" him in that topic is baloney, he was playing red herrings at best. Milky probably deserves his temp ban to let him cool down, but the fact the likes of Kursed and company are getting away seemingly scot-free is unjust. Milky had a good point: they NEVER provide counter-points. They just sit there, point fingers, and go "you're mean!", and then call their antagonist in question a "troll", and cry about it. That's not technically breaking any rules, but Milky technically never did either until the "Enough is Enough" topic, where BOTH parties partook in rule breaking. If Milk is gonna be tempbanned, its only fair his aggressors suffer similar discipline.

Thirdly comes the issue of WHAT EXACTLY A TROLL IS. Allow me to present to you a VISUAL AID to help:

Trolls say dumb shit to piss you off for shits and giggles. Being rude, while not favorable behavior, is not trolling. Calling our your tooth-pick balanced logical fallacies is not trolling. Not agreeing to the massive hivemindedness that floats around here -is not trolling-. Trolling is saying "yiff in hell furfags". Trolling is saying "This is what X actually beleives". As for when I call myself a "troll", you all need to apparently develop a sense of humor, because I use it in jest based on how much I get called a troll. Its a -joke-, a joke that YOU all started.

Although you could consider me a legitimate troll in the sense I -do- find it damn hi-lariou how out of proportion some people can take debate issues. But even then, I'm not causing it on purpose, so herpderp.

I have other things that bothered me, but they are mostly nitpicking subjects that rose up in the Enough is Enough topic, which does not belong here, or are better suited for PMs, so this is where I will stop.

Hate me if you want, but if you wanna say something about it, then say it to me, in private, instead of making a huge damn scene. Communication is the ONLY way to mend wounds, people. And don't get so mad about INTARWEB DEBATES. I don't even take them seriously as a whole. Yes, in the instant of the posting of a counterpoint, I am being quite serious, but I don't get all bent out of shape over them in the long run. Its a waste of time, a waste of energy, and what does it accmplish other than e-rage? Not a damn thing, that's what.

[Tiberius]

Look, IM not the one who started calling out people. I dont do that. I may remember names that are mentioned, so if youre directing that at me, youre shooting the wrong person. I started the topic for an entirely different purpose.

Also, I used to use the term troll loosely, until I saw the actual definition.

I simply find it dissapointing and disrespectful to be rude constantly like that, and I will point out every single moment if I have to.

Give respect, get respect. Its a policy I adapted from my old game clan, and its a policy I hope this site will adapt too. 

[DZComposer]

This issue with Milky is that User and I both told him to quit, and he didn't. That's why he was banned. Steve initially banned him for a week, but I am going to look into lessening it, as while I felt he needed a sock shoved into his mouth for a while, a week is a bit long.

On the issue of respect, I can't force people to respect eachother. But it would be a lot more sane around here if we remember that behind these posts there are actual people with feelings.

Also, if someone is getting on your nerves, say something to someone. Either to that person, or to a staff member. And say it early. If you start the back-and-forth and then come to the staff, it is much less likely that things will be resolved the way you want them to.