Recent Events...

[Tiberius]

Milky, as usual, you miss the point entirely and are pointing out my flaws, not the arguments. But answering your replys:

Fail or not, I made my best effort as i do with all things I believe in. You, on the other hand, are putting no effort to control what youre saying.

And I did have relatively good control. You havent seen me when Ive completely lost it. If i did I'd be banned.

I beg to differ that you dont carelessly say anything. Or at least you think you care enough, but compared to popular belief (its 6 to 3) you dont. This also goes with the ego. Youre letting it get to your head. Youre also putting words in my mouth. Cpntrary to your belief I was not making fun of you, I was pointing out a trait that most of us dissapprove of. Your narccistic behavior.

DZ did tell you to stay quiet once or twice if you look back.

Also, telling me Im point fingers and saying I dont like you for no reason is also misjudged and missing the point entirely yet again. I dont like the way you worded things, and I dont like your "Im just gonna stop talking cause I won this debate" attitude without 1. Actually asking why we dont like you but simply saying you arent a troll (you womt get answers if all you do is defend your argument) 2. Being hypocritical by saying you wont put anymore time into the argument when you reply two minutes later, and 3. Bluntly assuming youre superior, which is what we get when we hear "I win." contrary to your belief, you are not, I am not, and nobody else here is.

My point is for the upteenth time, you are wording your arguments in a way that sounds offensive. This is the one sentence of thw whole of evidence that you need to look at. You have missed that point and side stepped it by pointing out my flaws, some of which are untrue whether you like it or not, and using that to discretely say "this guy is not worthy of talking." that is how it appears on my side. Im not calling you names now, I am simply stating things we want you to stop and stop now.

For the record, and I think I speak for all of this, Im getting tired of discussing this over and over again.

[DZComposer]

Look, finger-pointing isn't going to solve anything. Especially since there is enough blame to go around.

Let's just remember to be nice to eachother. And if the conversation starts to drift in the direction of pointless bickering and insults, or you feel you can't get your point across, just walk away. Don't fan the flames with a sarcastic comment.

This happened three days ago, and quite frankly, I'm ready for it to be over.

  Quote

People are still pissed about Mr. K leaving and Dermot?

The Star Fox online community is just a really fun place to be.

I don't think so. I haven't gotten any random PMs about those things in months. I think some people just bring it up when criticizing the staff because in their eyes they saw it as a huge failure, not realizing that those two situations ended up being solved in a mutually agreeable manner between the involved parties. I only address it now for sake of making sure the truth is still out there.

[Scott7]

  Quote

Let's just remember to be nice to eachother. And if the conversation starts to drift in the direction of pointless bickering and insults, or you feel you can't get your point across, just walk away. Don't fan the flames with a sarcastic comment.

This happened three days ago, and quite frankly, I'm ready for it to be over.

^this... honestly this has on gone to long. Though if you guys still want to and make tensions worse, I'll give your answer sweet and simple:

If you don't have anything constructive to say when replying to a comment, don't reply to that Comment at all...

[Tiberius]

Im also done for this to stop.

[Guest DRL]

I would also like to say, sorry for any drama/troubles caused

by me. It was not my intention to cause any problem.

(This is why I came back, to clarify).

[Scott7]

  Quote

I would also like to say, sorry for any drama/troubles caused

by me. It was not my intention to cause any problem.

(This is why I came back, to clarify).

Nobody here blames you (there may be some, but then again who cares what they think...). Just Nice to you still care enough to come back and set things straight.  :)

[Milkyway64]

Tiberius, I don't want to be in this any more than you do, but you repeatedly egg me on with points like these:

  Quote

Fail or not, I made my best effort as i do with all things I believe in. You, on the other hand, are putting no effort to control what youre saying.

So what you're saying is I'm a mindless ragey troll without thinking about what I say. I do. I also, contrary to popular your belief, put effort in what I believe. I believe I was unfairly villainized and stated multiple points in my defense, of not a single one has gotten a rebuttal. I admit, I was mad, I broke some rules. This, however, excuses none of you calmly egging me on.

  Quote

I beg to differ that you dont carelessly say anything. Or at least you think you care enough, but compared to popular belief (its 6 to 3) you dont. This also goes with the ego. Youre letting it get to your head. Youre also putting words in my mouth. Cpntrary to your belief I was not making fun of you, I was pointing out a trait that most of us dissapprove of. Your narccistic behavior.

Debate. Is not. Narcissism. I'm a rather optimistic guy, actually. I believe that all problems can be overcome, and the best solution can happen if people put forth the effort. I'd hate to bring DRL back up, but in our little fight, a recurring theme was me being optimistic about his problem, while he raged and told me science said he was doomed and to shut up. You don't know me, you're making assumptions based on a few spats I had with Krystal fans. I love SFO. I'm not here to make it a bad place.

  Quote

Also, telling me Im point fingers and saying I dont like you for no reason is also misjudged and missing the point entirely yet again. I dont like the way you worded things, and I dont like your "Im just gonna stop talking cause I won this debate" attitude without 1. Actually asking why we dont like you but simply saying you arent a troll (you womt get answers if all you do is defend your argument) 2. Being hypocritical by saying you wont put anymore time into the argument when you reply two minutes later, and 3. Bluntly assuming youre superior, which is what we get when we hear "I win." contrary to your belief, you are not, I am not, and nobody else here is.

I only used that attitude once to try and stop myself in "enough is enough." I don't TRY to win or be better, this is why I never commented on Sabre's sig saying he was better than User, Robert and I, because I don't care. I'm after truth and understanding. Where we went wrong is understanding. I can't understand you guys, you won't let me. You hide away. Furthermore, 1. my entire business in Enough is Enough in the FIRST place was asking why and defending what was already there. You guys pointed finger and yelled TROOOOOOLLL IN THE DUNGEON, so I was like "I'm not a troll because 'X'" and you were still like TROOOOOOLLL IN THE DUNGEON.

2. As I said earlier, I did it to try and stop myself. I proved pretty ineffective.

3. Okay, when the HELL did I even assume I was superior or said I won. I said you guys wouldn't answer the question of why you guys don't like me, which is truth. Read back on it. Seriously. No one answered. I asked, people said "whatever" and that was the best I got. Forgive me for being annoyed.

  Quote

My point is for the upteenth time, you are wording your arguments in a way that sounds offensive. This is the one sentence of thw whole of evidence that you need to look at. You have missed that point and side stepped it by pointing out my flaws, some of which are untrue whether you like it or not, and using that to discretely say "this guy is not worthy of talking." that is how it appears on my side. Im not calling you names now, I am simply stating things we want you to stop and stop now.

For the record, and I think I speak for all of this, Im getting tired of discussing this over and over again.

I understand this, but if you truly wanted me to stop, you'd stop doing the same. I still don't know why I'm Satan, I still don't know why you're dodging MY questions and then proceed to flamebait me by saying I have a superiority complex and I'm in some sort of sad quest for dominion over a furry forum. I very. Rarely. Attack people. I attack arguments. I also am not a machine, so I occasionally get angry and annoyed, especially when people create cold wars with me by IMPLYING they have a biiiig problem, and not resolving it. I also get mad when people insinuate I'm a troll, be it just mistaking debate for flames or blatantly accusing me of trying to "win" something.

It's one or the other. Either stop and let this settle as say you want it to, or keep egging me on until DZ has to explicitly tell us to stop like the Julius incident. Continually attacking me and my motives will only move us toward the second, because I will defend it as I have been, and civilly too.

[Guest DRL]

  Quote

I'd hate to bring DRL back up, but in our little fight, a recurring theme was me being optimistic about his problem, while he raged and told me science said he was doomed and to shut up.

I have to reply to this point, actually.

First of all Milky, I do not know how much you remember of our

conversation. I, however, remember it pretty clearly.

What I told you was that science backed my claim that my "problem"

was not merely "on my head" - as you said - but had rather biological basis.

I told you that was PART of my depressive status. While I may understand that

you may disregard the 'other part' (the "I do not know what to after school one"),

you still said "bullshit, people get depressed all the time, get over it." To me about

the "gender problem" part. What I said was that my claim was backed by science.

There are MEDICAL reports of people killing themselves because of them not being

adequately treated, and that my situation was a serious one.

As I have said before, from my perspective you either made assumptions or confused

what I told you before, but what I said was by no means "made up". That said, I reiterate

that perhaps it was not your intention to offend me, however with strong statements such

as those, you clearly did.

[Redeemer]

Stop, stop, please stop! I think maybe we should take things to PM instead of here, I don't want anyone else getting into trouble.

Seriously, this topic was made to clear things up, not to continue fighting with each other.

[Tiberius]

Again, youre misinterpreting what Im saying. I said you put little to no effort in what/how youre saying things and that only. I never said different. And it is popular belief due to the number of people for this opinion being greater than those against it. I also never said debate was narccistic. But you are at some points. Why dont you go back and read it as well? I have already gone through it twice. The only parts I see flawed on my part are accusing you of trolling.

How can I dodge questions when I haventeven been asked one in the first place? You havent directly asked me ANYTHING. As a matter of fact, you have dodging my questions as to why you persist at this way of debate when it could clearly hurt someone as it did with DLR. There's nothing to be optimistic about when it comes to that so why bother? Why didnt you stop right then when clearly the discussion related to death? That is where you need to learn to stop. Just try to let it go when it gets that far.

And one more thing:

For the absolute last time: Im not attacking you, Im attacking the way you have talked to people in the last week. By telling you this, Im trying to help you in it. You assume that I hate you now. You are antagonizing me because you are misinterpreting what Im saying and taking it as an offense. Admitedly, like friday, I have had some problems too. I am aware of it and I aspire to fix them. But I am trying to help you, not hurt you. There is no antagonist in this now, but rather misunderstood views. I know what youre trying to say, but what you are thinking about me is WRONG.

[Tiberius]

  Quote

Stop, stop, please stop! I think maybe we should take things to PM instead of here, I don't want anyone else getting into trouble.

Seriously, this topic was made to clear things up, not to continue fighting with each other.

I am attempting to do so but its obviously being tajen the wrong way. I feel like Im in topsyturvy town.

[Redeemer]

Guys, come on, why can't you take this "exchange of opinions" to PM? You're putting yourselves at risk of a warning if you fight here.

EDIT: Just saw your second post, Tiberius. It was just an idea, I don't want anyone to get into trouble is all.

[Tiberius]

I realize that, and thats all I was saying. Im just trying to finish what I started.

[Sabre]

  Quote

Guys, come on, why can't you take this "exchange of opinions" to PM? You're putting yourselves at risk of a warning if you fight here.

EDIT: Just saw your second post, Tiberius. It was just an idea, I don't want anyone to get into trouble is all.

I think it's better this way. The whole drama was about inaction over percieved injustice anyway. When it's public at least can see what is really happening without quote mined PMs or IM histories. The whole thing has turned from debatable issue into a mud slinging contest that nothing of value can be salvaged from. It will be interesting to see when it's all played out though.

["User"]

You two have already proved your point enough even in this thread and, as Redeemer as graciously pointed out, you guys should take this to PM's instead of repeating what has previously been said involving your disposition on this matter.

[Robert Monroe]

I'd just like to say both of you are saying "you're missing my point" to the other, so why not just drop it and start anew? Milk isn't a troll, he isn't a hater, he doesn't think he's better than any of you other people here, he just seeks out strong debate. He talked "down" to people the past week because he was mad and when people are mad they do dumb shit. Holy crap, people, making mountains out of something so simple.

[Scott7]

  Quote

I'd just like to say both of you are saying "you're missing my point" to the other, so why not just drop it and start anew? Milk isn't a troll, he isn't a hater, he doesn't think he's better than any of you other people here, he just seeks out strong debate. He talked "down" to people the past week because he was mad and when people are mad they do dumb shit. Holy crap, people, making mountains out of something so simple.

Thouhg in doing so, nothing would change...

[Robert Monroe]

  Quote

Thouhg in doing so, nothing would change...

Keywords: START ANEW. Fresh slate. Drop everything, and try again. Its worthless to argue over these things when all anyones gonna do is just say the other guy is missing his point.

[Milkyway64]

Right-o. Tiberius, I also don't hate you, so yeah. It's as Rob says, I'm not a troll, I just like good debate and for people to actually stand for themselves. My apologies if this offends you, but people are different.

[Tiberius]

Ive said at least 1000 times I know youre not a troll. I used the term loosely before.

And yes. I also know people are different. Apperently you do not know how different people can get, refering to Julius and DRL. Im mainly concerned because Julius is a good friend of mine and you were involved in the discussion that made him leave. Nuff said there.

Just be respectful from now on and I wont have a problem. Deal?

[Milkyway64]

  Quote

Ive said at least 1000 times I know youre not a troll. I used the term loosely before.

And yes. I also know people are different. Apperently you do not know how different people can get, refering to Julius and DRL. Im mainly concerned because Julius is a good friend of mine and you were involved in the discussion that made him leave. Nuff said there.

Just be respectful from now on and I wont have a problem. Deal?

Again, DRL was a different case altogether, and Julius wasn't just helplessly victimized by BIG BAD MILKY.

Julius left because of a 5% warning. I'm serious. He got a 5% warning for calling me a moron among other things, and saying STFU. He whined to everyone that I didn't get warned for swears like "shit" and "fucking" as adjectives rather than flames. I PM'd him explaining why in a honestly rude manner (this was around the Kursed drama, so Kursed's entire board wanted my head and I wasn't exactly cool with them at the time either) and he reciprocated hostily.

That's the last interaction I've had with him. Don't even begin to say he's so much different, because he was pretty nasty too. All in all, it's not my fault he couldn't get over it and not hold a quarter year long grudge about it.

As for being respectful, I am. I'm just not a golden idol. I again point out that I rarely attack anyone and it's a priority of mine to remain civil. If something I disagree with has good backing, I will back off, having understood. However, if something stupid comes up and doesn't have the supporting pillars a bold opinion should have, I feel no shame in taking it, note; it, the opinion, not the person, down. I very rarely hold anything against anyone, my "hostility" ends with the post. This is known as discussion, and if your PM is true, you're best off using the ignore feature, as this is part of who I am (a thinker, a challenger of ideas) and I'm not going to just change it.

[Tiberius]

Look, Julius left because his temper got the best of him. He cant tolerate much not many people on this site can. Thats why I had to be the one to get up and say stop it.

[DZComposer]

OK, since this thread has turned into flying accusations between Milky and Tiberius, I think it is time time end it. If you have any further suggestions on how the staff should handle these kinds of things, feel free to use one of the two staff suggestion threads.

Milky and Tiberius: I don't want to see this argument in the public discussion anymore. If you want to continue to hash this issue out, please do so using other means. Though it is probably better for both of you to just walk away from it now.

As far as everyone else, we have all made our points. Hopefully we now know enough about eachother to prevent these situations in the future.

It is also worth noting that sometimes reason and logic dictate that the best thing to do is walk away from a discussion, even if the other parties are using glaring fallacies. It's just a forum debate, after all. No use spoiling everyone else's mood over something as insignificant as that.