Humanity

[ballisticwaffles]

okay, becuase i am both sure and unsure about the fact that there hasnt been a topic like this, i might as well start it.

I am human. I am A hairless monkey that dresses in the dead cells of other animals. I drink the excretions of bovines and burn things to go places.

and im proud of it.

Recently, the advent of more anti human stereotypes in fictional settings has upset me. From films like Avatar to books like Eragon anti human sentiments, whether they be small things like superior elves or big things like wishing to be a diffrent species all together, bother me. Am i alone in my sentiments, or am i just paranoid and thusly should take a chill pill and chill the hell out?

[Xortberg]

Personally, I don't think these are anti-human stereotypes per se. In the movie Avatar, the Navi were basically a paper thin allegory for minorities in general, with the Native Americans being the obvious inspiration, while the humans were there to represent the majority. Eragon, though I haven't read it in a while, seems more to me that the main issue regarding humanity is the struggle to reconcile between the baser instincts of survival and perseverance, as shown in Murtagh's constant desire to do whatever it takes to stay alive, and the more refined elements, such as the elves' reverence for all life. The elves are undoubtedly physically superior to humans, but humans have greater numbers and show more adaptability, so a balance is struck.

[ballisticwaffles]

point taken. I do realize those arent the most triumphant of examples, and i do understand the allegoration of both parties, the intent of the post was to convay my displeasing feelings of the ,what i see as, anti human sentiments. James Cameron hammered throughout the entire moive that the Navi were far superior to humans, something taht troubles me greatly, as i have stated numerous times. BUt i digress. i simply was wondering if anyone else shared the same sentiments as i do.

[Xortberg]

I can see what you mean by all that. Humans are, in most cases, vastly inferior physically to most everything we're compared to. The Navi, having human intellect and being more physically capable, are pretty much better than us in every way save technologically.

[ballisticwaffles]

Depends on what you mean by vastly superior. A tactic used by plains hunters is to literally chase after an animal until it drops dead of exhaustion. That is why 100 miles ultramarathons are possable. for a human. in fact one of the many reasons that we domesticated wolves is that they were one of th eonly species that could keep up with us while hunting. physical prowress becuase of natural size is obvius. a tyrannisaurus is obviusly more powerfull than a human being, helped by the fact that its bloddy huge.

And im not to sure about them being vastly superior in every way cept tech crap. The reasons they attacked humans in the firstplace essentially boils down to the fact that we are not Navi, there for are insain and should be put down. But i digress. As a tree fareing race, the navi shouldnt be able to sprint as fast as a human would have to, nor run several miles on a pint of water and an asskicking. essentially the topic is about the sentiments that you just exhibited. the blind assumption that we as a species are the weakest and most inferior race out there.

[Xortberg]

Endurance and long distance running is one advantage we do have, but in a one-on-one showdown with a large number of animals, humans would lose hard. Chimps could dance circles around us climbing around, deer/gazelle and other such animals are damned dangerous when they do decide to attack, and lions, bears, and other large predators speak for themselves. I never said humans were straight up the weakest race, but physical superiority is definitely not our forte. Our strength comes in adaptability and lateral thought, leading to technology and innovation.

The Navi example is an easy one. Their bodies definitely look less powerful than a human's in a raw sense, a la the Marine commander, but agility and the ability to easily climb trees, cliffs, etc., would provide a far greater advantage in a battle provided technology was equal. Why do you think Navy Seals and other special ops soldiers are more deadly than bodybuilders who pull firetrucks? The same sort of thinking would apply to a Navi. Grace and agility far trump brute force, although humans as a whole seem to have struck a decent balance between the two. Also, despite living in trees, their long legs seem like they'd be pretty well suited for a sprint, and in the movie, I do believe the first time Jake used his avatar he outran several humans who were chasing him.

[ballisticwaffles]

i am heading off to bed so i will post more tomarrow but a snack for tthought. their legs may be long, but that proves nothing interms of physical endurance. Plus jake is an Avatar, a hybrid, we cannot use a hybrid to judge one of the species he is bred from. Besides, they could run fast yes, but for not as long.

Chips could dance circles around us, but being monkeys our selves, we could climb after them. and  ye sother anmials are damned dangerous. but i dont see a gazell munching on human bones very often so its safe to assume im better than them.

i jest

and to satisfy a curiosity of mine, what kind of one on one showdown are we talking about? one where both the combatnants are armed with their respective advantages?

[Robert Monroe]

If humans were armed with their respective advantages, we would have access to like guns and shit. There is an evolutionary reason as to why we are physically puny yet keep the entire planet under our thumbs: its the huge brains we have and the developments said brains have made.

[Xortberg]

i am heading off to bed so i will post more tomarrow but a snack for tthought. their legs may be long, but that proves nothing interms of physical endurance. Plus jake is an Avatar, a hybrid, we cannot use a hybrid to judge one of the species he is bred from. Besides, they could run fast yes, but for not as long.

I suppose the hybrid point does stand. I'd forgotten that.

Chips could dance circles around us, but being monkeys our selves, we could climb after them. and  ye sother anmials are damned dangerous. but i dont see a gazell munching on human bones very often so its safe to assume im better than them.

i jest

Have you ever seen a chimp climbing? The greatest parkour runners in the world couldn't keep up with a chimp. They were made for the trees. And of course you don't see gazelles eating humans. They're herbivores

and to satisfy a curiosity of mine, what kind of one on one showdown are we talking about? one where both the combatnants are armed with their respective advantages?

Since the question was over physical superiority, respective advantages would be limited to physical prowess, since as Robert pointed out, full advantages given to a human would be chain guns and flamethrowers and nukes and such. That's why we win.

[ballisticwaffles]

prescisely. We have the advantage. But im afaid of going off topic, so lemme attempt to rerail the train. Does anyone see humanity as a lesser species?

[Milkyway64]

No. There are plenty here though, at least a few people in "what if" threads had this belief that humans were trash and anthros weren't. So yeah, some disgruntled furries are ashamed of their species.

[The Shaper]

No. There are plenty here though, at least a few people in "what if" threads had this belief that humans were trash and anthros weren't. So yeah, some disgruntled furries are ashamed of their species.

I was one of them, and I was sorely mistaken. When I look back at the human race I notice that they did far better then any species on earth ever could. As far as we know we could be the most advanced civilization in the galaxy depending if aliens exist and if they have intelligence. There are a few humans out there that aren't a good definition but even they are more intelligent then most other life forms on the planet.

[Xortberg]

There are a few humans out there that aren't a good definition but even they are more intelligent then most other life forms on the planet.

I dunno, the teenage girls a few rooms over from me might be some pretty good contenders in the "Most Brainless" competition >_>

[Robert Monroe]

Just remember: everytime you see somone stupid, just remind yourself, "we landed on the fricken moon".

[Beau Skunk]

Actually, you'd be surprised how many people out there believe the moon landing was "staged," and that we are incapable of space travel. Of course, some people think everything's a conspiracy.

[Sabre]

Just remember: everytime you see somone stupid, just remind yourself, "we landed on the fricken moon".

-and never went back there again.

Imo, the opposate is usually true. Humans are held up as superior or devine for no reason.

Similar to Xorts post about Avatar, I'm more sick of pro-hippy/anti-science/anti-corperate crap.

[Milkyway64]

Imo, the opposate is usually true. Humans are held up as superior or devine for no reason.

You have to be an artificial intelligence to actually believe this.

[Robert Monroe]

Actually, you'd be surprised how many people out there believe the moon landing was "staged," and that we are incapable of space travel. Of course, some people think everything's a conspiracy.

Like I said: every time you see someone stupid...

-and never went back there again.

Imo, the opposate is usually true. Humans are held up as superior or devine for no reason.

Similar to Xorts post about Avatar, I'm more sick of pro-hippy/anti-science/anti-corperate crap.

Because there was no reason. The entire race for the moon was a way to one up the Russians, and when the USA firmly let them know that we did it and they didn't, we quickly realized there's -nothing there- and decided to focus on more practical astronomy.

Of course now we're going back so we can build moonbases and shit to reach Mars but whatevs.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Maybe this'll be seen as a wishy-washy answer, but I am ambivalent toward humanity. We've done a bunch of great stuff, but we've also done a lot of horrifying and barbaric crap. Probably my biggest gripe with humanity is that we have so much potential, but we waste so much of it. Most humans don't contribute more than a little manpower for status-quo jobs that need to be done. Though I tend to hate Ayn Rand, I do have to agree that most of the advances in human society or technology came from individuals, rather than the collective, and so it's not bad to exalt the exceptional individual over the mindless masses.

That said, many of the advances have been accidents, at least in technology. Rarely does a scientific breakthrough occur the way it was intended. Penicillin, for instance, was discovered because the right guy left a petri dish open overnight. His genius was recognizing what the mold had done to the bacteria around it.

Of course, the problem is that most of us are only concerned with propagating our species and solving any problems we might encounter with violence. It's not our humanity that's the problem; it's when we resort to our baser instincts. It's easier to act like an animal than a thinking individual, so that's the route most people take, being lazy. Our whole law system is there to mitigate the negative effects of acting on such base instincts, after all. I don't see any laws there to prevent analyzing a problem or taking a step back to regain one's composure.

[ballisticwaffles]

Of course, the problem is that most of us are only concerned with propagating our species and solving any problems we might encounter with violence.

Im not following. Is that a problem to want to expand our species? And im not sure if any other solution is as effective as violence.

[Xortberg]

Im not following. Is that a problem to want to expand our species? And im not sure if any other solution is as effective as violence.

It wouldn't be a problem if we weren't capable of conscious thought and aware of concepts like 'right' and 'wrong,' abstract though they may be. There may be nothing inherently wrong with expanding our species, but it also shouldn't be our only goal, especially if we're going to keep trying to extend what life we do have through medicine and such.

With violence, we once again come across the 'right and wrong' issue. Yes, it's effective, but what if I wanted money and the easiest way was to steal your identity and use your money? It's definitely effective, as with violence, but it's also wrong. It negatively affects another being, and one capable of conscious thought at that. That's the issue we run into in the movie Avatar. The humans want the Unobtanium, but to get it they need the Navi to move. When they don't want to, we decide "Oh hey, violence is effective," and thus we get the movie we saw. As much as the movie itself annoyed me, it does do a good job of addressing that sort of thinking you presented.

[Samantha Weltzin]

Im not following. Is that a problem to want to expand our species? And im not sure if any other solution is as effective as violence.

My point is, similarly to what Xort says but in different terms, that much of the time we have incredibly shallow, short-sighted goals. When all you care about is fighting and f***ing, you wind up messing everything up.

Fighting has a purpose, sure, but we tend to view it as an end rather than a means to an end. It's like, "If we kill a bunch of people, they'll see the error of their ways." Which, of course, is utter bull, since killing people just breeds hatred toward the person who killed your loved ones. The world is more complicated than "If you kill it or beat it up, it will go away." The fact that you think violence is the best solution kinda lends support to my side that a lot of people think this way and tend to simplify a complicated subject.

Likewise with making babies: A lot of people's life's goal is to have kids. If you do have kids, though, your goal should be to make them good, thinking, productive members of society who try to better mankind's condition in some way. Most people aren't that far-thinking, though, and some have a bunch of babies on accident and wind up screwing up their lives because they're not prepared to be parents.

[ballisticwaffles]

Oh, okay. thank you for clearing that up for me.

So, what exactly makes any of the species that could be used as an example diffrent from us?

For what i see, the only diffrences from the navi to humans are the fact that navi and tall blue and can mindf*ck rape dominate "bond" with a sentiet being.

[Milkyway64]

For what i see, the only diffrences from the navi to humans are the fact that navi and tall blue and can mindf*ck rape dominate "bond" with a sentiet being.

And the fact that they are fictional and despite the movie's biggest perk, not quite three dimensional.

[Xortberg]

Depending on who you ask, there's either a world of difference between humans and other animals or none at all. At a genetic level, all animals - humans included - are hardwired to want to pass on their genes. That means making babies. I bring this up to reinforce the fact that in an discussion like this, all views are very subjective and depend on your personal beliefs. That said, lets compare a human and a salmon.

What do they have in common? Survival mechanisms, the urge to make babies, and most likely several other things. At the most basic level, one could argue that there's very little difference between humans and any other animal, from dogs to dolphins. However, and this is where it gets subjective, we humans are capable of conscious, sentient thought. Whereas a salmon just follows its instincts and swims back upstream to mate, humans can choose to deny that urge and live alone, or find a partner but not have kids. In addition, our conscious thought makes us aware of how our behavior affects others. Where a salmon will just do its thing and die, we worry about varying perceptions, we have religion, we have philosophy, etc.

The Navi weren't meant to be all that different from us. That's why they made them basically tall blue cat people. They speak like us, live like us, and have religion and belief in a higher power, like many of us. Their similarity is where the sympathy factor comes from, and is also why the humans would look like bigger jerkasses than if they were trying to just relocate a herd of alien buffalo or something.