Worried

[FoxMcCloud]

This is not to be a drama thread, or to make fun of one another. But to post my concerns about the site. I used to be a very active member of SF-O, I used to visit the lounge alot, Rec room, you name it. I was a frequent RPer. Alot of recent events have occurred, IRL and here. Mainly here. I am worried SF-O. (also this has no ties to Kid_Cortet, other concerns about this site are my main worries, not him and what he did)

Star Fox is a children's game, alot of the discussions here are targeted towards an adult community. We have kids 13, 15, young ages that are getting themselves involved in arguments, "discussions" that end up turning into drama. Wanna know what the main problem is........ Understanding that barrier. Those that continue to post and argue, it just ends up creates a vicious cycle. Not everyone needs to be right on this board. We are a community of Star Fox Fans, Let's enjoy the game that we all grew up to love and appreciate. Not ramble on about why you think your right and shove opinions down each others throats. I know I'm gonna get told "It creates discussion, and debates" My answer is this. Not all members are capable of handling debates and discussions like adults. There are children on this board that are getting caught in the middle of this, That needs to stop. Plain and simple

That is my primary concern, the other which is the RP section is posted in another thread

I love SF-O and it will always have a place in my heart, I just want to say.....can't we all just get along?

PS: I am not targeting a specific group of people, or the staff, or admins. I just wanted to voice my concerns and worries for the site.

[Sabre]

First, the idea that Starfox is a kids series is wrong. The reason I was attracted to it was the soap opera like dramatic storylines. For various reasons not related, I dont post in starfox specific areas very much. Under the same logic, technically transformers and back to the future are kids films.

In debates though there is a time for opinion, and those of fact. Usually fact informs opinion. A sceptic is someone who demands evidence. The old line is "A true believes says "I can't be conviced" a sceptic says "I demand to be convinced""

Most of the drama outside of obvious troll attempts is caused by true believers. Their opinion is sacred. Rahter then self correction or trying to convice people of their opinion, the defaut is dismiss and QQ. eg. Recently Novas counterpoint to my arguments was to post a picture of a guy pulling a silly face. THAT'S the problem.

[fox1235]

Hey if your talking about me, I'm fine with everything here.

Assault and Adventures was rated T for Teen(even though no one follows those ratings anymore).

[Harmony Descent]

Assault and Adventures was rated T for Teen(even though no one follows those ratings anymore).

Offtopic:

HIGHLY AGREE!!! 

A good example is parents letting their 7 - 9 year old children play M rated games, such as Red Dead Redemption or Splatterhous.

Ontopic:

I fully understand what you are saying about your worries to the site.  I personally just say, "Heck with it.  It's their problem; not mine," and just go on to other topics while not posting on the topics.

But, getting back on the topic about Starfox being a 'kids' game is a wee-bit farfetched.  Although you do have a VERY good point about people ignoring the ratings on the games nowadays, but I believe that Starfox was aimed at more of a Teenaged group and up.  I also do agree that some of the gameplay and what not, meaning the story and other stuff, does have kid-friendly things in them. 

But, I would not worry too much about it, the site and other stuff too much.  Just let it do it's thing, people dwell on it on their own and just do your own thing that does not involve dwelling on it yourself.  Trust me, worrying too much is not that good, but it does show your deep concern for the site.

[TheRedFox8]

Oh, I LOVE it when parents let their children play those big violent M rated games, then complain about "too much violence" /sarcasm

[Milkyway64]

Also, Yeah, we do have younger members here, but ajc (where is he anyway) is an example of a kid that can roll with it. He's prepared for the other side, and even though he doesn't exactly win his cases, he TRIES dammit.  :P

[Sabre]

Oh, I LOVE it when parents let their children play those big violent M rated games, then complain about "too much violence" /sarcasm

The one that get's me is "Ultra violence, fine. Sex, fine. But the game said the f- word! Ban it!"

[CrypticQuery]

The one that get's me is "Ultra violence, fine. Sex, fine. But the game said the f- word! Ban it!"

It's not like you don't hear or see anything like that in our public education system or in life, IT'S ONLY IN POPULAR MEDIA!

That double standard annoys the hell outta me. 

[Scott7]

I tried to do the same thing as Harmony, Just ignore the crap and move on. But eventually where the problems happen, sooner or later spread to the others. From General Discussion, all the way back to Rp area and lounge, nothing but debate...

Agree, Debate and discussion isn't something to be shunned and should be embraced. But what's the point of it if it boil's to the point where people start throwing fit's of rage?

[FoxMcCloud]

That is what I mean. We need to have some self-control in the discussion and debates.

Personally I love a good discussion, and debate, but it goes way out of control.

[Milkyway64]

That is what I mean. We need to have some self-control in the discussion and debates.

Personally I love a good discussion, and debate, but it goes way out of control.

How so? The only ones I remember that has done that is Dermot and the thread calling a certain two people out as trolls that lead to nerd rage and a temp banning.

[FoxMcCloud]

That wasn't the only one. We have had other topics that were locked and closed because of Drama and debate. One of the more recent ones was the Hotel RP. when drama was raised and caused by a poster, who had never even participated in that RP. What happens is that the drama spreads from one thread and into another. What needs to be done is that drama needs to be controlled, and not spread like a vicious plague throughout the other boards

[Xortberg]

That wasn't the only one. We have had other topics that were locked and closed because of Drama and debate. One of the more recent ones was the Hotel RP. when drama was raised and caused by a poster, who had never even participated in that RP. What happens is that the drama spreads from one thread and into another. What needs to be done is that drama needs to be controlled, and not spread like a vicious plague throughout the other boards

The problem with saying drama needs to be controlled is that there's no way to decide what's drama and what isn't. At what point does a discussion/debate cross the line from reasonable into a dramallama pasture? Where does that line start, and how could it possibly be decided for everyone? Each person has their own opinion about what is drama and what isn't, so there's no way to make a solution to please everyone. Any attempt to restrict drama would just lead to censorship of any sort of discussion that isn't "Yeah, I agree!"

[Milkyway64]

That wasn't the only one. We have had other topics that were locked and closed because of Drama and debate. One of the more recent ones was the Hotel RP. when drama was raised and caused by a poster, who had never even participated in that RP. What happens is that the drama spreads from one thread and into another.

And I think you are totally mistaken. For the umpteenth time, that was -not- closed because of drama. The drama was over it needing to be closed, or at least as it stood over the RP rules. DZ locked it because no mod could even be bothered to look at it, so when DZ finally DID, he's like "Oh hey, how is this still running when it breaks 70% of the rules I laid down." and so he locked it, which went into a campaign over a rule change so it could be brought back. And hey, it was all operated by me, your apparent enemy. IMAGINE THAT.

"Out of hand" my bollocks, that incident improved the RP section some and got things done in a timely and orderly manner.

[FoxMcCloud]

Ok, then I was mistaken. But you were never my apparent enemy Milky, we have had disagreements, but nothing to serious..

"Out of hand" my bollocks, that incident improved the RP section some and got things done in a timely and orderly manner.

For the short time it was around, it lasted what 2 weeks or so.. The RP section never really improved, but instead still ended up faltering out. But that discussion is in another topic.

[Milkyway64]

Ok, then I was mistaken. But you were never my apparent enemy Milky, we have had disagreements, but nothing to serious..

I was meaning more of the individuals who never let the issue go and constantly remind me of their grudge.

For the short time it was around, it lasted what 2 weeks or so.. The RP section never really improved, but instead still ended up faltering out. But that discussion is in another topic.

I remember it being cleaner than that. Topic was locked, discussion was had with DZ, rules were revamped to be less claustrophobically restrictive. It wasn't a miracle, but it was a start in the right direction.

[FoxMcCloud]

I was meaning more of the individuals who never let the issue go and constantly remind me of their grudge.

Ok, it sounded like towards me for a bit

I remember it being cleaner than that. Topic was locked, discussion was had with DZ, rules were revamped to be less claustrophobically restrictive. It wasn't a miracle, but it was a start in the right direction.

True it was a step in the right direction, but there is more work to be had

[Milkyway64]

True it was a step in the right direction, but there is more work to be had

Which as you may notice, is moving forward now. :P

[FoxMcCloud]

Which as you may notice, is moving forward now.

Very true :D

[DZComposer]

I think Xort is right here. The problem isn't that we have lots of drama, it is that there is a belief that there is a lot of drama. People then look at the point/counter-point discussions going on, and figure that they MUST be drama, when 90% of the time they are just discussions.

The difference being that drama is centered around the people involved, and discussion is centered around the subject at hand.

Discussion is healthy for a community. It cuts down on hive-mind and groupthink. Don't get offended because someone comes in and lays down a counter to your opinion. They have a much of a right to their opinion as you have to yours. If you wish to defend it, fine, just don't call the person mean or a troll.

Also, if you feel someone is being too much of a smart-ass about something, ask them to stop. Most of the time it works.

[FoxMcCloud]

I think Xort is right here. The problem isn't that we have lots of drama, it is that there is a belief that there is a lot of drama. People then look at the point/counter-point discussions going on, and figure that they MUST be drama, when 90% of the time they are just discussions.

The difference being that drama is centered around the people involved, and discussion is centered around the subject at hand.

Discussion is healthy for a community. It cuts down on hive-mind and groupthink. Don't get offended because someone comes in and lays down a counter to your opinion. They have a much of a right to their opinion as you have to yours. If you wish to defend it, fine, just don't call the person mean or a troll.

Also, if you feel someone is being too much of a smart-ass about something, ask them to stop. Most of the time it works.

Very true, but the counter-point discussion really was not my main concern, it was the other topics like the rec room and the lounge topics that had drama in there. I honestly don't get offended if someone counters my opinion, but there are people on here that just cannot handle discussions that way. It ends up offending people, and that is what seems to cause it. People cannot seem to understand that discussions are good, and opinions will always be stated, there just

And DZ you are very true on asking someone to stop, it does work, but sometimes the inner ego in us all does not want to admit defeat. I have been guilty of that on a few occasions

[Scott7]

And I think you are totally mistaken. For the umpteenth time, that was -not- closed because of drama. The drama was over it needing to be closed, or at least as it stood over the RP rules. DZ locked it because no mod could even be bothered to look at it, so when DZ finally DID, he's like "Oh hey, how is this still running when it breaks 70% of the rules I laid down." and so he locked it, which went into a campaign over a rule change so it could be brought back. And hey, it was all operated by me, your apparent enemy. IMAGINE THAT.

"Out of hand" my bollocks, that incident improved the RP section some and got things done in a timely and orderly manner.

Oh Shut up Milky... There Were No problem's nor any violation's of any rule's in the Previous list, and The Moderation at the time isn't any different then it is now. And Btw, you still never answered my question from when you blowing shit out of your ass. What Exactly would have happened if it kept going? and What Valid reason's were there to close it? And Why did the Bar have to go down as well when it had a normal flow?

There were no problem's or complaints at the time, All active user's were contacting each other through pm's and keeping bookmark's for where they  was they felt lost.

EDIT: I'm sorry if this is rising tesnsions again, and I wish i could just delete this post. But I'm tired of this... I'm tired of seeing this site in the awful state it is...

[Sabre]

Being right does nothing, being wrong and corrected makes you smarter. eg. The Misconceptions thread about Silencers, though the movie myth still stands, I now know guns can be silenced.

Also

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#False_positives

[Xortberg]

First, OWA, I'd like to point out that you are attempting to start, by DZ's definition, drama in a thread about how we have too much drama. Way to hump this discussion in the mouth.

Oh Shut up Milky... There Were No problem's nor any violation's of any rule's in the Previous list, and The Moderation at the time isn't any different then it is now. And Btw, you still never answered my question from when you blowing shit out of your ass. What Exactly would have happened if it kept going? and What Valid reason's were there to close it? And Why did the Bar have to go down as well when it had a normal flow?

There were no problem's or complaints at the time, All active user's were contacting each other through pm's and keeping bookmark's for where they  was they felt lost.

http://forums.starfox-online.net/index.php?topic=5670.msg277793#msg277793

Links to a post of Robert's in the LLH discussion thread where he explains a bit of the problems the Hotel had with the rules. This, combined with the fact that DZ hasn't corrected Milky on his reasoning in the post you quoted, suggests that the Hotel did indeed break rules. Now that your complaint has been answered, I kindly ask you to leave this argument out of the topic here and PM Milky instead. We're actually making some progress in the discussion here, so it would be nice if we could avoid the drama we're trying to discuss... undramatically.

[Steve]

We have another topic, just right above or below this talking about the RP, could you guys just throw all your RP complains there?, it's easier to manage what people think it's going on when you have a clear view instead of "hey, every freaking problem is related to RP"

One thing is for sure, 80% of the site problems are related to the RP section, and to tell the truth, SFO is not a mainstream RP forum, we OFFER RP, but that's not why we are here.

Also, I thought I said I would accept any complains about the site in my inbox...I've only had ONE person doing so, and said person got an answer and query and I specially made a topic in the staff section to address community ideas. I'm not going to complain, new year, new challenges, and I wanted to make 2011 drama-proof, so guys, make a fancy list of why this site is dying/sucks/blahblah WITHOUT considering the RP section (like I said, RP section is far away from being the top priority of the site, and if there are other issues around, we need to address them first), and if you have recommendations, do include them, like I said, my inbox  is your inbox  .

Also, this:

Also, if you feel someone is being too much of a smart-ass about something, ask them to stop. Most of the time it works.