Emulation

[Sabre]

Let's not get into the usual legal finger waggling please. On a related note don't go around demanding Roms, links and so on.

Anyway. Looking up emulators to see if the N64 emulators had advanced to the point where I can play Resident Evil 2 without setting up an old console. I also like checking to see what whichcraft they have been up to that get's these things working.

From what I'm seeing Mupen seems to have overtaken Project 64 in the 'it works as a games machine' catagory.

Then I came across this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_%28emulator%29

While as a games machine I have a Wii, the idea of playing GC games in high res is pretty amazing. It also apparently has support for 3D. (any 3D PC game can be made pop-out-of-TV 3D through fancy drivers) Has anyone used it?

And for those wondering what Starfox Assault would look like if it was in HD

http://vimeo.com/11547024

[Fire Yoshi]

A friend of mine shows me videos and screens using Dolphin to play games, mostly from Starfox Adventures.  It's pretty dang awesome if you ask me.

[DZComposer]

I'm curious: Can it read GC discs, or do you have to rip them?

There are obvious legal issues with rips. There could also be legal issues with playing discs due to DMCA anti-circumvention, but at least the game copy is legal.

[Fire Yoshi]

I'm curious: Can it read GC discs, or do you have to rip them?

Though there could be legal issues with that due to DMCA anti-circumvention, but at least the game copy is legal.

Yes it can. Well, that's what he told me at least.

Edit: Scratch that, you can't. You have to rip the game.

[YJH1995]

Yes it can. Well, that's what he told me at least.

Edit: Scratch that, you can't. You have to rip the game.

Well it depend on the DVD drive you use some of them cant while others can.

I'm curious: Can it read GC discs, or do you have to rip them?

There are obvious legal issues with rips. There could also be legal issues with playing discs due to DMCA anti-circumvention, but at least the game copy is legal.

I have used emulators like that before it really depend on what types of DVD Drive you are using if you are using an earlier type of DVD drive  like the one without Support For DL it wont read but if you are using a later one like Blu-ray or something else that has support for DL then it will read. You can use the Boot from CD thing. I tried that a lot and it gives me no problem.

Dolphin only support 2 Cores currently but to run the emulator Properly you need a decent Graphic card Or CPU. Though Sometimes you will find the games fairly laggy.

[DZComposer]

Hmm... That means there are real legal issues here.

SFO does not condone using Dolphin, even if you have the game disc.

Emulation always requires more powerful hardware than what is available in the original system. The main reason is that everything the different processors in the hardware have to handle has to be handled in software before being passed to the host hardware. Of course there are almost always bugs. All of this inevitably taxes the host hardware more.

[Fire Yoshi]

Boy, I'd love to have a more powerful computer so I can use Dolphin to play these games in high def.  That would be great for my screenshot comics. :)

[DZComposer]

The next question: Is this true HD or is it just upsampling? If the game engine can't render in HD, I have my doubts that it is true HD.

[Fire Yoshi]

The next question: Is this true HD or is it just upsampling? If the game engine can't render in HD, I have my doubts that it is true HD.

I'm not sure what "upsampling" is, but I can tell you this;

It's as clear as you can make clear to be on a videogame.  It's truly gorgeous.

[DoctorAllosaurus]

I'll be trying it out when I build a PC. I'm mostly just interested in playing Metroid and F-Zero in hi-def.

[DZComposer]

I'm not sure what "upsampling" is, but I can tell you this;

It's as clear as you can make clear to be on a videogame.  It's truly gorgeous.

Upsampling is "fake" HD. Basically, you are using a mathematical algorithm to fill-in the missing holes between a 480i signal and 1080i signal. Crappy upsampling, like what Blu-Ray players do to DVDs, is obvious, and leads to a slightly-noisy image. Good upsampling, though, can be less-obvious. That said, it will never be as good as a true HD source as you have to artificially create information that isn't there. The original source determines how well it looks, as well. Old-school Animation tends to upsample better, as there are a lot fewer colors in the image. Dark horror movies, not so much. They are filmed in low-light and there is a lot of movement going on. Upsampling produces the most noise on a dark image.

Upsampling can be computationally expensive, but I am not sure how it compares to actually rendering 3D graphics in HD, which is also computationally expensive.

Those old TV shows they have on Blu-Ray are a prime example of something that is upsampled.

[YJH1995]

The next question: Is this true HD or is it just upsampling? If the game engine can't render in HD, I have my doubts that it is true HD.

Yep it is true HD i tried playing it in 2560X1600 before and it is very High Res

Warning the picture above me is 900KB

well that is a screenshot of what I mean by Higher than HD

[Fire Yoshi]

Yep it is true HD i tried playing it in 2560X1600 before and it is very High Res

Warning the picture above me is 900KB

well that is a screenshot of what I mean by Higher than HD

You should help Mr Krystal out.

[DZComposer]

Image size doesn't tell you whether or not it is upsampled. An upsampled HD image comes out at HD resolution. It's the quality of the image, not the filesize or dimensions.

The image you provided doesn't look that bad, though it is hard to tell if it is upsampled due to the low-res compressed textures. Looks better than a DVD-player's upsampling, though. It's also a JPEG.

I'll have to play with it to see. Maybe I should get a new monitor for my computer. It only supports 1680x1050. HD is 1920x1080.

[Zzz]

Can I throw in a suggestion?

How about we update the gallery on the mainsite with these awesome hd screenshots?

Like giving Adventures and Assault a new category with a clear indication that these screens were taken with the help of an emulator.

(Since these games were not meant to be presented this way)

Of course hosting these gigantic images is problematic, I know...

Any legal issues with that, as well?

[Sideways]

I love my 1080p monitor.  :lol:

[Sabre]

Give that CD based console ROMs (at least for ps1 and sega CD) are just images of the disc, I think it would be both, but as already said, you would need a compatable player.

As for 'true hd' v upsampling, it depends on how you define it. The game is playing at that resolution, so it is HD in that sence. It's like taking a PC game and changing the resolution in the games settings. I'll use quake as an example.

However, no matter how high you pump the resolution, the assets (models, textures, ect) will still be the same. To use quake, the textures will still be 256x256.

As for the running speed. You have to remember you are running a computer inside your computer. That said, if you have a big enough computer it can run better. eg. It is possable to run Goldeneye at 60 frame per second. Assuming you have a computer that can take it.

Can I throw in a suggestion?

How about we update the gallery on the mainsite with these awesome hd screenshots?

Like giving Adventures and Assault a new category with a clear indication that these screens were taken with the help of an emulator.

(Since these games were not meant to be presented this way)

Of course hosting these gigantic images is problematic, I know...

Any legal issues with that, as well?

Why stop at 1080? In theory you can pump up the resolution as high as your monitor can go.

[DZComposer]

I don't want to do that. SFO does not support nor condone using emulators to play commercial games, and posting such images as site content contradicts that.

Sabre, 1080 is where most of today's monitors stop. To go higher, you have to spend a lot of money. A 30" LCD monitor that supports 2560x1600 costs more than a 50" 1920x1080  LCD TV.

It's economies of scale. Marketers love 1920x1080 because it is "HD." Even though it is higher, 2560x1600 is not "HD." They can't use the buzzword. So, there is an abundance of LCD panels out there at 1920x1080. Not so many for higher resolutions.

[CrypticQuery]

And for those wondering what Starfox Assault would look like if it was in HD

http://vimeo.com/11547024

THIS IS GLORIOUS, I could care less whether that is real HD, it looks damn fine!

[DZComposer]

So, apparently you need a drive of a specific family of DVD drives to dump the disc images (I will not call them ROMs because there is no ROM chip involved).

[sniper]

so then is grabbing the disc images and playing them on an emulator technically legal or illegal?

[DZComposer]

It's dubious. It could violate the anti-circumvention clause in the DMCA.

It seems most of the DVD drives required to rip are discontinued models. Yay.

[ThePointingMan]

It also apparently has support for 3D. (any 3D PC game can be made pop-out-of-TV 3D through fancy drivers) Has anyone used it?

There's this thing z3d (probably got the name wrong), I used that, and if it's anything like, which I'm guessing it is, then it's pretty impressive, I only ever managed to play tf2 with it once though, the snipers scope looks crazy.

Also as far as the Dolphin emulater, it's really disappointing that they took out Kaillera support for Dolphin 2... The first one had it, but it couldn't play a lot of games (such as SF:A) the second one can play SF:A, but no Kaillera support. P.S. If it had Kaillera support we could play SF:A online multiplayer, but hey, at least better resolution is better then not better resolution.

Kaillera is still cool if you're emulating, eh... non-commercial games for anything n64/ earlier though.

and finally, I leave with a question, if you own a game, is it illegal to download an ISO or whatever of it?

[Sabre]

The problem with all this legal stuff (and why I didn't want to get into it) is that everyone thinks they know it, but unless you are professional (and even they have trouble with it) you are not going to know the realistic ins and outs. Plus laws vary around the world.

In practice, no one is going to burst down your door because you DLed super castlevania, but wii games might be an issue if you don't know what you are doing.

It's dubious. It could violate the anti-circumvention clause in the DMCA.

It seems most of the DVD drives required to rip are discontinued models. Yay.

So technically you can't use emulators to play discs you own, and have to pirate. +1 for the pro piracy camp.

Also, discontinued doesn't mean unavailable. Windows 98 has been discontinued a while and you can still get it.

[DZComposer]

Buying used optical drives is possible, but there is a 50% chance the drive you buy is broken. Optical drives are one of the common failure components in a computer.

I don't like those odds. Especially when coupled with the fact that these drives are getting famous for their ability to read console game discs, and are starting to carry premium prices on the used PC parts market because of this. As more of them fail due to age, the more expensive they will get.