Money

[Xortberg]

@ Xort

What I meant was that if we didn't have money, we'd just have slave labour, because slave-labour is just normal labour without the pay check at the end of the day (If you don't believe me, look it up)

No, not really. Labor without money isn't slave labor. By that logic, when I write My Little Pony fanfiction like I am between bouts of owning you, I'm being a slave. It is, according to definition, a form of labor after all, and I'm most definitely not getting paid. What makes labor turn into slave labor is when people are forced to work for the gain of others without or with very little pay or rights.

PS: There is a difference between stupid and incorrect Xort.

Yes, and your post managed to be both at once. Congratulations.

[Milkyway64]

No, not really. Labor without money isn't slave labor. By that logic, when I write My Little Pony fanfiction like I am between bouts of owning you, I'm being a slave. It is, according to definition, a form of labor after all, and I'm most definitely not getting paid. What makes labor turn into slave labor is when people are forced to work for the gain of others without or with very little pay or rights.

Yes, and your post managed to be both at once. Congratulations.

WHERE YOU AT!? WHERE YOU AT!? WHERE YOU AT!?

[DZComposer]

Economics in feudal society was not necessarily slavery-driven. While, yes, the lords did reap the majority of the benefits, by the time this kind of rule emerged, there already was s monetary system.

The fallacy is assuming that the existence of money was dependent on some specific socioeconomic system.

Money has been found that dates back to ancient times. Money was created to solve one of the fundamental problems with bartering: How much is something worth?

Is digging a trench worth two chickens or three? How about ducks? Or pigs? How many trenches must I dig to get a cow? Is my making you a pair of shoes worth you making me a pot? Money solves this problem by allowing monetary value to be placed on these things. If a chicken is worth two shiny stones, and digging a trench is worth six shiny stones, we now have a way to do business. This also has the advantage that I can purchase a chicken without having to give the chicken farmer my time. If I raise hogs and he no me gusta pork, then I have a problem if I need chickens for eggs. With money, I simply give him two shiny stones and I get a chicken without having to do manual labor for him, which takes my time away from my hogs.

Feudalism can exist without money, yes, but it goes back to batering. The barter with the lord is you give him your crops, less enough for you to survive, and he lets you live on his land. Of course most feudal societies came later, after money had been invented. You can't hoard treasure before there is treasure, after all.

This is one of the downsides of a monetary system. While it leads to a more efficient economy, it also can be used to oppress people.

[jesseboyd7]

Today's society: money = debt rather than: money = value. As the quantity of the money supply grows inflation becomes inevitable. Unless the quantity of goods and services grows along the same rate as the money supply just to keep prices stable. Most countries used gold as money or in paper form that represented gold. Today it's the opposite, gold or other precious commodities have been replaced into FIAT money or Central Bank Notes to control the issue of currency. Central Banks claim to protect the issue of currency but inflation and deflation leads the results. Governments become in debt to their central bank as they borrow to spend on their programs, wars, and other unnecessary things. And guess who pays it back? Us through taxes! Take a look at this video:

Gold: Independent Money

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RvL_Dm2d99A

[Psygonis]

It's a bit long shot to say that the german/british 1914 bank reform led to all the mentioned events, and the same stands for the US 1971's one. Economic instability is a catalyst for social hazard, it's a fact, but to lead to world wars and such need other factors (like individuals, or other countries' actions).

As a matter of fact, the only possibility to make money with money, through usury is a much greater problem, rather than the source of wealth. After all, gold is a value standard now as much as shells or pearls were milleniums ago. So finding "independent" money is not a problem. But any material thing is by nature limited so in a way, the whole of Earth has a finite maximum value it can hold. So allowing an amount of ***$ to value *** + 5%/month $ is an unstoppable loop that generates "debt money" and breaks the system. THAT is the problem.

That loop is a private banking fact, eased by a ferocious lobbying done in the governments (actually, in the world, there is less than 5% of the money that had been created by the governments themselves. The 95% remaining are created by banks as they wish through credits). And this is the 1913 US president Woodrow Wilson's doing, when he allowed the US money to be created by private banks networks (dominated by the british banks). From a US matter, it became the world's, accordingly to the US-controlled globalization.

For these that speak french, there is an extremely instructive documentary video "L'argent Dette" (But I think it also exists in english as "Money as Debt") by the canadian Paul Grignon. It explains how these things began and work nowadays.

[jesseboyd7]

I've seen Money as Debt and Money as Debt II Promises Unleashed! Those are eye opening documentaries. There are so many other documentaries out there as well that explains the monetary system and economics. Thanks for that point Psygonis. I agree the same things you just stated. So what should we users do about it? One of the first steps to do first is education. Education is key. Second is protect yourselves by buying physical gold and silver. Today August 10th gold and silver surged again compared to the stocks that are down. Third is to start contacting our government officials to put pressure on important issues like monetary problems. Have any other ideas users? If you are new to learning this information check out these documentaries. Google or Youtube them. Youtube: College Conspiracy. Another great documentary.

[ThePointingMan]

I like money

but what i've really come to say is this is a reeaaaally old topic.

[Psygonis]

Barely 3 months, and jesseboyd7 gave a valid input to the thread... Can't see where the problem is! :/

[ThePointingMan]

Is it now? Boy then time has warped in my mind, felt like last time is saw this thread it was... i dunno some time last year or somethin. Anyways, I guess das ok.

[jesseboyd7]

Barely 3 months, and jesseboyd7 gave a valid input to the thread... Can't see where the problem is!

I'm just wondering was I steering off the topic on money? Or what do you mean "Can't see where the the problem is!" ?

I'm confused.

[kkstarfox]

I like money, and I like the people who give me it. And I love capitalism! That being said I'm not opposed to helping others. Money is a concept, and we ascribe a value to it. Money, is still trade. It just makes trade a lot easier. I trade my hour of labor for "x" amount of cash and in turn i spend cash keeping the system going. To me if you are against money, you are against hard labor. Honestly, who said trade had to be heart felt or considerate? I don't need to know an artist's life story to buy a picture! Sure I might be using them for labor, but in turn they are reaping the fruits of there labor. If you have a problem with the prices, learn to barter better or work harder or smarter.

[jesseboyd7]

Money is what we need to buy things with. If we used gold as money, I think gold is the best form to use as money. But hey! Who wants to carry a bag full of heavy coins to a grocery store? NO ONE! lol. Paper form of gold or silver as money would be better and portable. And it also should be redeemed into that coin as well. I also like the idea of having gold and silver as electronic form as money as well (brainstorming).

@ Psygonis I'll try to explain what my problem was. After being a member of SF-O I was still busy on other social networking sites (facebook). Too lazy to visit this site. However, I like studying economics on how money works. Took me 2 years to grasp and to understand it. And still learning it. I've also listened to independent alternative radio shows online for some time as well. So back to SF-O, finding the subject on money really got me excited to share my opinion after 2 and a half months.

[Psygonis]

You misunderstood me. I replied to ThePointingMan's comment about you digging up an "old" thread. As I said in that same message "can't see where the problem is", with you participating to the discussion I meant.

[jesseboyd7]

Ok. I see what you mean.

[DZComposer]

The reason the US left the gold standard is that the economy started growing faster than the gold supply could keep up.

Gold is not a panacea, either. Gold-backed currencies of the past have had periods of inflation and deflation resulting in recessions. In fact, the US Dollar was backed by Gold during the Great Depression. That didn't stop the disastrous deflation.

Gold is in one hell of a bubble right now because the short-term investors are milking the high price. Once that ends, Gold prices will crash.

Also, when Spain discovered tons of gold in the Americas back in colonial times, they brought it back to Spain. This flooded the Spanish economy with gold, resulting in inflation.

Gold's long-term stability comes from it's rigidity, provided there isn't a flood of gold onto the market (you mentioned in another thread mining more gold as 'only ~10% of the world's gold is in circulation') but the rigidity is also a barrier to short-term economic problems. The Great Depression was worsened because of rampant deflation. The problem is, there was not the political will to move the gold peg to combat the deflation. Gold was to rigid too protect the economy.

Fiat currency is flexible, and deflation is very rare under fiat currencies. They are more susceptible to inflation, but inflation isn't inherently bad. It is only when it is out-of-control. Our system checks against that by allowing the setting of a national interest rate. Raising the rates slows economic activity, reducing inflation.

Of course, many goldbugs don't like governments, and that is the basis for their distrust of fiat currencies. But that is for a different thread.

[jesseboyd7]

So crazy to see gold flirting around $1900 an ounce! I remember few years ago on cnbc saying gold is coming to a bubble when it was trading around $1000 per ounce. I think gold is trying to tell us something here: the dollar is dying!

Also back in the year 2000, if you bought the stock market lets say the Dow Jones Industrial avg. Take the Dow and divide it by the price of gold. There were 40 ounces of gold in the Dow (thats pretty good). Today if you are still investing in the stock market you are losing real bad . 5.8 ounces of gold in the Dow!!! Also gold is telling us that we are still in the recession.

I personally believe that gold is a natural currency.