Sabre Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 This year marks a decade since the 911 attacks. Despite this, I occationally see it used as a defence. Usually when a game or film has rediculously charactertured terrorists or is bursting with patriotism it's almost vomit inducing. Usually both. Given that it was 10 years ago I don't think it's useable as a defence anymore. Personally I don't think it was ever a usable defence in the first place, but when it comes up these days does it have the same effect as the hitler card in that it stops a debate cold due to stupidity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballisticwaffles Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 This year marks a decade since the 911 attacks. Despite this, I occationally see it used as a defence. Usually when a game or film has rediculously charactertured terrorists or is bursting with patriotism it's almost vomit inducing. Usually both. Given that it was 10 years ago I don't think it's useable as a defence anymore. Personally I don't think it was ever a usable defence in the first place, but when it comes up these days does it have the same effect as the hitler card in that it stops a debate cold due to stupidity? Shut it. Just... Shut it. Do you understand why it rocked My Nation to the core? Do you understand that only twice before in our entire history has something like this happeneed? NO you dont. The cold war ended, We were excited for a new age. then the eleventh. It rocked us to our core. It rocked our nation so deep entire generations will grow up to the after effects of its occurance. Excuse? Just.... no. Youve gone to far this time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 This year marks a decade since the 911 attacks. Despite this, I occationally see it used as a defence. Usually when a game or film has rediculously charactertured terrorists or is bursting with patriotism it's almost vomit inducing. Usually both. Given that it was 10 years ago I don't think it's useable as a defence anymore. Personally I don't think it was ever a usable defence in the first place, but when it comes up these days does it have the same effect as the hitler card in that it stops a debate cold due to stupidity? I might just be really tired right now but what exactly do you mean by it being used as a defence? What is the 911 Hitler card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkyway64 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 SENSE. THIS THREAD MAKES NONE. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulvokunvrii Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I dont think Hitler is a safe topic to discuss here...it could offend alot of peole in many different ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarita Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think I get what you're saying, Sabre. I think you have a point. It's been 10 years, and people are still using it to justify their actions, instead of takign personal responsibility. I'm not sure what you're getting at on the debate point, but I gotcha everywhere else, I think. I dont think Hitler is a safe topic to discuss here...it could offend alot of peole in many different ways... He's not talking about Hitler. So it's coo' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Shut it. Just... Shut it. Do you understand why it rocked My Nation to the core? Do you understand that only twice before in our entire history has something like this happeneed? NO you dont. The cold war ended, We were excited for a new age. then the eleventh. It rocked us to our core. It rocked our nation so deep entire generations will grow up to the after effects of its occurance. Excuse? Just.... no. Youve gone to far this time. Honestly, I agree with him, to an extent. I'm American myself, and I'm not trying to downplay what happened that day, but he has a point. It was ten years ago. America has a bad habit of holding on to things for a ridiculously long time, and this, in my opinion, is no exception. There's plenty of other countries that have bad things happen to them, but as far as I'm aware few, if any, are as sensitive about it ten years after the fact. The part I do disagree with, though, is his claim that it was never a viable reason to get riled up about. It was a huge deal, and we had every right to get pissed about it. Do I think we handled the retaliation with the grace it needed? No, not really. Do I think we still need to get all excited about it and get angry because of it? No. Remembering what happened, and those who died, as well as the fire departments and police forces that risked their lives to help people in need, is all well and good, and I'm not trying to stop that - I doubt Sabre's even crass enough to suggest something like that. Still, on this rarest of the rare occasions, I agree with his point, if not with his method of getting it across. If we keep dwelling on it and letting an event 10+ years in the past influence our behavior and our actions, we'll never get past what happened. We'll never move on, and we'll never grow up. I think it's high time we moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballisticwaffles Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think I get what you're saying, Sabre. I think you have a point. It's been 10 years, and people are still using it to justify their actions, instead of takign personal responsibility. I'm not sure what you're getting at on the debate point, but I gotcha everywhere else, I think. Oh hell, not you too. What actions need to be justified with 9/11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarita Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Oh hell, not you too. What actions need to be justified with 9/11? You need to honestly chill, and read Xort's post. He says what I'm trying to say, and what Sabre's trying to say. There's no reason to be dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Honestly, I agree with him, to an extent. I'm American myself, and I'm not trying to downplay what happened that day, but he has a point. It was ten years ago. America has a bad habit of holding on to things for a ridiculously long time, and this, in my opinion, is no exception. There's plenty of other countries that have bad things happen to them, but as far as I'm aware few, if any, are as sensitive about it ten years after the fact. Exactly, the earthquake in Haiti killed 250,000 people and displaced millions more and one year later the nation is in just as bad of a shape. The flooding in Pakistan has also affected more individuals than the combined total of individuals affected by the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, the 2005 Kashmir earthquake and as previously mentioned said Haiti earthquake. Ten's of millions of people have had their lives SEVERELY affected on a day to day basis. Yet if you talk to people from these countries that have had similar disasters in the past, like a decade or so ago happen to them it doesn't resonate nearly as much as much Americans are holding on to 9/11. The part I do disagree with, though, is his claim that it was never a viable reason to get riled up about. It was a huge deal, and we had every right to get pissed about it. Do I think we handled the retaliation with the grace it needed? No, not really. Do I think we still need to get all excited about it and get angry because of it? No. Remembering what happened, and those who died, as well as the fire departments and police forces that risked their lives to help people in need, is all well and good, and I'm not trying to stop that - I doubt Sabre's even crass enough to suggest something like that. Completely agreed, 9/11 happened on my very first day in college and I remember EVERY detail of what I did that entire day. Definitely not something to be downplayed and I'm sure that wasn't Sabre's intention. Still, on this rarest of the rare occasions, I agree with his point, if not with his method of getting it across. If we keep dwelling on it and letting an event 10+ years in the past influence our behavior and our actions, we'll never get past what happened. We'll never move on, and we'll never grow up. I think it's high time we moved on. Also agreed. Look at the World Wars which were far worse in terms of loss of life and lives affected than anything we have seen today. We have largely moved on with that and we can't dwell on the past in a great extent (no matter how tragic it may get) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballisticwaffles Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 my apologies. I posted just after xort did. didnt see it. Im afraid i think you are wrong Xort. We need to Dwell in the past. we need to study it. we need to remind ourselves "this is the price of failure" 10+ years in a historical setting is basically 10 minutes. Its fresh in the minds of those who experianced it. Its not just as simple as moving on. It runs deeper than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulvokunvrii Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 my apologies. I posted just after xort did. didnt see it. Im afraid i think you are wrong Xort. We need to Dwell in the past. we need to study it. we need to remind ourselves "this is the price of failure" 10+ years in a historical setting is basically 10 minutes. Its fresh in the minds of those who experianced it. Its not just as simple as moving on. It runs deeper than that. sure we should study it for what we need, but we shouldnt DWELL on. We need to be focusing on what we can do NOW tahn what we should have done in the PAST. Dont let your mind stay in the gutter 'Waffles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 This will change your opinion. It's just as disturbing today as it was ten years ago. If you look closely at some shots, you can see people throwing themselves/falling out of the windows, mixed with debris. It is still relevant today and is seriously the most disturbing event in the last 50 years. (Warning: Very disturbing footage.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Eh, it's a double edged sword. While yes, the events were tragic (even tho there are still many things that need to be uncovered), it's history already. I mean, look at ww2, it ended over half a century ago, it was x1000000 times more tragic, and people learned to live through it after a while. Of course, I'm not trying to compare, but that's the best example I could have come with. The best thing about history is that it already passed, so yeah, we need to learn to deal with stuff that already happened. While yes,my life would be easier if the "911" hadn't happened, it's not like we can do something to change the events, and going extremely paranoid or "patriotic" can take wrong turns. I do have my own thoughts about the subject, but those are kinda sensitive in a way that I believe the american government is still using "911" as an excuse to do things (Even tho I believe Obama is doing somethings right), then again, I myself have little to none right to judge stuff like this. Still, It was a tragic event for the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 This will change your opinion. It's just as disturbing today as it was ten years ago. Not to nitpick, but that's because we were around when it actually happened. Same boat as people who are 80+ years old who remember when things like Pearl Harbor happened when they see the footage, for them it resonates REALLY well for obvious reasons but for younger generations such as ourselves not nearly as much on average - even though Pearl Harbor had much bigger consequences than 9/11. If you look closely at some shots, you can see people throwing themselves/falling out of the windows, mixed with debris. Personally I remember this well, watching this in front of the T.V. after I got home from college - very disturbing indeed. It is still relevant today and is seriously the most disturbing event in the last 50 years. In America yes for sure but it depends on your definition of disturbing. I know for a fact that in the last decade or two they have been some really screwed up things happening worldwide that, IMO would be more disturbing to people living outside of a Western World country. It's all perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 my apologies. I posted just after xort did. didnt see it. It's cool. Im afraid i think you are wrong Xort. We need to Dwell in the past. we need to study it. we need to remind ourselves "this is the price of failure" 10+ years in a historical setting is basically 10 minutes. Its fresh in the minds of those who experianced it. Its not just as simple as moving on. It runs deeper than that. As Reynard said, and as I said (although maybe not clearly enough) I don't think we should forget about it or pretend it never happened or anything like that. Still, I did experience the planes hitting the towers. I remember every detail of the day, and I accept that it was a horrible tragedy, and I've moved on. Remembering something and dwelling on something are two completely different things. Paying homage to something in remembrance is fine as long as you don't let it rule your life, as so many people still do. Yes, from a historical standpoint 10 years is very little, but how many people really think in a historical standpoint? I can barely remember the ice storm of '09 in Kentucky, and I was smack in the middle of it. Of course, I realize that my ramblings probably aren't going to change your opinion, and I'm sure you realize that yours won't change mine, so I'll just respect your views and stop arguing this. Only drama will come of it. This will change your opinion. It's just as disturbing today as it was ten years ago. If you look closely at some shots, you can see people throwing themselves/falling out of the windows, mixed with debris. It is still relevant today and is seriously the most disturbing event in the last 50 years. (Warning: Very disturbing footage.) No, it will not. In fact, this kind of behavior only cements my opinion. Why would you even link to those videos, if they're as disturbing as you say? Just to get people riled up and shit? Videos like those are the reason we can't move on, since people can't escape them and it just pisses them off to see it over and over again. It's like if you cut yourself and keep picking at it before it can scab over; it'll never heal and you're only hurting yourself by doing it. Also, as User said, disturbing is horribly subjective. What about the black market sex slave trade that Oprah's so obsessed with? What about all those people User mentioned whose lives were destroyed by earthquakes and tsunamis? It's the most disturbing event in your eyes because you witnessed it and you won't let it go. And again, it just pisses me off that you would use those videos like that. That's using the memory of what happened to make yourself look right, and all you're doing is taking advantage of the pain of others. It's disrespectful, it's bad for everyone involved, and there's no reason at all to do it. And with that, I'm done with you. If I keep going, I'm going to rage hard, and I'd rather not do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Weltzin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 To answer your "Is bringing up 9/11 the same thing as Godwinning?" question, Sabre...it's not quite as bad, nor is it as deep-set in so many people, but it does flow in the same vein. For many, it's a highly emotional card to play, and it does function much like an excuse. Rather than comparing it to bringing up Hitler in a conversation, it's probably closer to saying, "Well I have cancer." It's there to garner sympathy, but it may not actually be relevant to the conversation. There are so many factors that go into play here that to simplify it with any one answer would be entirely missing the core of what 9/11 meant. 2,000 lives were lost. Guess what? Hurricane Katrina destroyed that many lives as well, AND caused much more property damage, homelessness, joblessness, and just plain dispair. Yet we never talk about Hurricane Katrina anymore despite the fact that it happened only five years ago. While this may seem bizarre and nonsensical, the reason, of course, is because other people caused 9/11, while the hurricane was just a large natural disaster. America just isn't used to being on the other end of the "aggressor" spectrum, so when this happened, people flipped out and thought that the country's security had been severely compromised, giving up freedoms they previously had just for a bit of added security. Overreaction? Sure. But given that this sort of thing hasn't happened since Pearl Harbor, it's natural that people in the U.S. haven't built up a thick skin for this sort of thing. Terrorism is not a new thing. Many European countries have been dealing with it for years before the 9/11 attacks and, though it is often tragic on a personal level for those whose family members have died, the countries that have experienced it for this long have grown accustomed to it, so when an attack happens, people respond to it, it's in the news for a while, then eventually it dies down. I'm not, by the way, trying to make a point other than "The issue is complex." I personally think that America is acting retarded about the whole situation, and we need to grow up and stop thinking about the booboo we got, since other countries have had and do have it much worse, but I also understand why it resonates so much with other people with a less-callous view of the situation than I have. There are two sides to every coin, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Why would you even link to those videos, if they're as disturbing as you say? To have an opinion that can be backed up by A/V. @ User: Yeah, I don't remember much of the live coverage (I was 5 and probably indifferent) but I more recently became interested, looked 'em up, and was pretty much scarred for life. Gah, it scares me, the things that people will do for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Weltzin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 To have an opinion that can be backed up by A/V. Since Xort chose not to respond, I will, with a quote of his: "And again, it just pisses me off that you would use those videos like that. That's using the memory of what happened to make yourself look right, and all you're doing is taking advantage of the pain of others. It's disrespectful, it's bad for everyone involved, and there's no reason at all to do it." The fact that you said it's to back up your opinion just showed that it's exactly as he said, which is indeed in very poor taste. For example, what if I posted an image macro of an RL kitten getting its head crushed beneath someone's heel for the sake of proving that people are cruel? Would that not be considered poor taste? It's very similar to that. Just say, "Watch the videos of the attack and you will understand," and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulvokunvrii Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 To have an opinion that can be backed up by A/V. @ User: Yeah, I don't remember much of the live coverage (I was 5 and probably indifferent) but I more recently became interested, looked 'em up, and was pretty much scarred for life. Gah, it scares me, the things that people will do for religion. well imagine what one or a mass would do for a country, a figure head...? it is all almost the same. It is all about "perspective" and "belief". Among otherthings, that im not going to talk about. I dont wish to get into a full-blown arguement. ill watch and observe, and mabye pitch in now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox1235 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Since Xort chose not to respond, I will, with a quote of his: "And again, it just pisses me off that you would use those videos like that. That's using the memory of what happened to make yourself look right, and all you're doing is taking advantage of the pain of others. It's disrespectful, it's bad for everyone involved, and there's no reason at all to do it." The fact that you said it's to back up your opinion just showed that it's exactly as he said, which is indeed in very poor taste. For example, what if I posted an image macro of an RL kitten getting its head crushed beneath someone's heel for the sake of proving that people are cruel? Would that not be considered poor taste? It's very similar to that. Just say, "Watch the videos of the attack and you will understand," and you'll be fine. Well, not like that. I did mention that the attacks are disturbing, didn't I? He asked for the reason of posting the "disturbing" footage, and I said I used it to back up my point of the attacks being just as scary and horrifying as they were 10 years ago. This is a valid reason, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Weltzin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well, not like that. I did mention that the attacks are disturbing, didn't I? He asked for the reason of posting the "disturbing" footage, and I said I used it to back up my point of the attacks being just as scary and horrifying as they were 10 years ago. This is a valid reason, no? You're kinda going in circles here, as this has already been addressed as well. Point was, it was in poor taste. If you're going to use examples like that, just refer people to them through nothing but words so they can go look themselves. You'll get a lot less flak that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You're kinda going in circles here, as this has already been addressed as well. Point was, it was in poor taste. If you're going to use examples like that, just refer people to them through nothing but words so they can go look themselves. You'll get a lot less flak that way. Alright, I'll take that advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Weltzin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Alright, I'll take that advice. Cool. Glad I could help your netiquette a bit. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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