Where did Starfox go wrong?

[Drasiana]

...it did effect the rest of the series. That was our point with Krystal. She was birthed by a plothole and was never paid off. That's why lots of people don't like her.

[LoneWolf]

...it did effect the rest of the series. That was our point with Krystal. She was birthed by a plothole and was never paid off. That's why lots of people don't like her.

Krystal was the bastard child of rushed development and bad planning.

Look, we can all go and argue over how and why Krystal is a piece of crap caught in the toilet of failure, but let's try and talk about other reasons StarFox went wrong.

[Thu'um]

while i don't see krystal as a plothole or a major one at that, i did say most of the plot wholes don't effect the seires, such as scales entering the shrine that only the pure of heart can enter. that doesn't do anything to the rest of the seires

[Zzz]

Someone please explain how Andross did...all these things he did. I mean he was dead. He was fucking dead, what's up with that?

I can TOTALLY accept James coming back from the dead more or less to help Fox outta Andross' lair. Him becoming manifest in something only Fox can see is ok with me. In fact, I love it.

But even if you don't like the idea of James' spirit coming back you gotta agree it works since it's the ending of the game and it needed a climax of some sort.

But what's that with Andross? Did he....like...you know, TELEPORT HIS SOUL INTO A CLONE RIGHT BEFORE HE WAS ABOUT TO DIE or some bullshit like that?

[Thu'um]

Someone please explain how Andross did...all these things he did. I mean he was dead. He was fucking dead, what's up with that?

I can TOTALLY accept James coming back from the dead more or less to help Fox outta Andross' lair. Him becoming manifest in something only Fox can see is ok with me. In fact, I love it.

But even if you don't like the idea of James' spirit coming back you gotta agree it works since it's the ending of the game and it needed a climax of some sort.

But what's that with Andross? Did he....like...you know, TELEPORT HIS SOUL INTO A CLONE RIGHT BEFORE HE WAS ABOUT TO DIE or some bullshit like that?

well, i don't exactly know how he was undead befor the krazoa, but when he did trap them all in side him(using krystal) their life giving powers brought him back from the dead.

[Zzz]

Well I got THAT part. But how could he do anything after his DEATH in the first place?

[Guest Mr. Nintendo]

Well I got THAT part. But how could he do anything after his DEATH in the first place?

^ My guess.

[Drasiana]

Krystal was the bastard child of rushed development and bad planning.

Look, we can all go and argue over how and why Krystal is a piece of crap caught in the toilet of failure, but let's try and talk about other reasons StarFox went wrong.

I brought up Krystal because AJC is arguing that the plotholes had no lasting effect on the series, wheras Krystal herself IS a lasting effect and nothing but one huge plothole. Not because OMG KRYSTAL SHOULD DIE FOREVER but just because...well, she is a plothole.

[Thu'um]

Well I got THAT part. But how could he do anything after his DEATH in the first place?

your right, but we are dealing with a monkey that has run tests on him self, and made him self into a gaint floating head. he can do that, then he might has well had a back up plan if he failed.

I brought up Krystal because AJC is arguing that the plotholes had no lasting effect on the series, wheras Krystal herself IS a lasting effect and nothing but one huge plothole. Not because OMG KRYSTAL SHOULD DIE FOREVER but just because...well, she is a plothole.

and i said that most plot holes, won't effect the seires not all, and i'd like to know how shes a plot whole, WITH OUT, starting a dramatic argument

[Xortberg]

and i said that most plot holes, won't effect the seires not all,

Only plotholes do affect the series. They affect it negatively, as they do to any series.

and i'd like to know how shes a plot whole, WITH OUT, starting a dramatic argument

Good luck with that.

[Thu'um]

Only plotholes do affect the series. They affect it negatively, as they do to any series.

Good luck with that.

well, does andross not being able to fit down a small tunnel effect how you play in assualt?

I know right? i am gonna need all the luck i can get

[Drasiana]

Yeah, considering keeping the drama away will need a lot of self-restraint on your part~

And yes, it does effect the series, because it screws up the plot. Plot is part of what makes the player care about gameplay; it rewards them. When all it rewards us with are shitty half-strung plots that make no sense, we have a right to feel ripped off.

[Thu'um]

huh, i suppose just seems sense less to me

\

[Milkyway64]

and i'd like to know how shes a plot whole, WITH OUT, starting a dramatic argument

Cerinia

Magic

Telepathy

Flight skill in short amount of time

Romance subplots (especially in Command) coupled with her "pure of heart" description

Her vengefulness in Command following the same

Explain all of those and you win.

[LoneWolf]

Cerinia

Magic

Telepathy

Flight skill in short amount of time

Romance subplots (especially in Command) coupled with her "pure of heart" description

Her vengefulness in Command following the same

Explain all of those and you win.

Death Star

YOU'RE A WIZARD, HARRY

Cerebro

Spy sappin my flight skills

Lonely game devs

PTSD from Panther.

Those are my guesses, anyways.

[Thu'um]

Cerinia

Magic

Telepathy

Flight skill in short amount of time

Romance subplots (especially in Command) coupled with her "pure of heart" description

Her vengefulness in Command following the same

Explain all of those and you win.

planet that exploded, plot hole how?

Magic, well thats unatural, but so are animals that can talk and fly in space ships. and a gaint floating monkey head. so what can't happen?

telepathy ^ explained above

command is a lie

[Milkyway64]

planet that exploded, plot hole how?

How did it explode? Why? Who did it, how did Krystal survive?

Magic, well thats unatural, but so are animals that can talk and fly in space ships. and a gaint floating monkey head. so what can't happen?

telepathy ^ explained above

Not good enough. Adventures has a drastically different tone from it's predecessors, going from scifi space wars to shooting fireballs at dinosaurs. Explain why only Cerinia has magic, who and why the Krazoa are there, and why their power has yet to be harnessed for the better of Lylat's civiliazation, or why Sauria itself is largely untouched by Corneria or any other power.

command is a lie

It happened, it contributes to the walking plothole is, deal with it. Explain or admit defeat.

[ZM Anonymous]

planet that exploded, plot hole how?

Plothole? More like useless, mary sue backstory.

Magic, well thats unatural, but so are animals that can talk and fly in space ships. and a gaint floating monkey head. so what can't happen?

Just a cop out for saying "I can't explain magic in a sci-fi universe."

telepathy ^ explained above

NOPE! She never had telepathy in Adventures! How did she acquire it in Assault?

command is a lie

Says the one who thinks we should just move on after Command WHOOPSDIDIJUSTSAYTHATOUTLOUD

[Thu'um]

How did it explode? Why? Who did it, how did Krystal survive?

Not good enough. Adventures has a drastically different tone from it's predecessors, going from scifi space wars to shooting fireballs at dinosaurs. Explain why only Cerinia has magic, who and why the Krazoa are there, and why their power has yet to be harnessed for the better of Lylat's civiliazation, or why Sauria itself is largely untouched by Corneria or any other power.

It happened, it contributes to the walking plothole is, deal with it. Explain or admit defeat.

as for how, what,or why happned. all these are not important. they are more of an uneeded information rather then a plot hole. example time! we don't know if fox wears boxers or whity tides ,amd that isn't a plot hole.

who says only cerenia has magic? as far as i am concurned its more of the person then the place, as far as magic ability.

krazoa are the life giving spirits of Sauria.

And sauria is untouched for the same reason many small third world countries are untouched by the U.S. Its very small, desolate, out of the way, valueless, and just as unimportant as fruit in a steak house

oh, and command did happen, but only up into the point of the prolouge ending, after that the stroy is uncannon, and therefor doesn't really exsist. and trying to say krystal was a jerk in command is void, BECAUSE i could easly point out a path of gameplay where she isn't. So yes i do we beilive we should move on through command. just not going milk's way any one see what i did there?

[Milkyway64]

as for how, what,or why happned. all these are not important. they are more of an uneeded information rather then a plot hole. example time! we don't know if fox wears boxers or whity tides ,amd that isn't a plot hole.

Oh please. And you say Krystal needs backstory when that's "uneeded info" too. You're pulling this out of your ass and you KNOW it, the destruction of a planet that may or may not be connected to Andross is VERY important, doubly so when that same plot point was all Krystal had in Adventures.

who says only cerenia has magic? as far as i am concurned its more of the person then the place, as far as magic ability.

Which is your own fanfic bullshit. As far as the rest of us are concerned, it came from nowhere and made no sense when contrasted with only all of SF and SF64. Command and Assualt to some degree too.

krazoa are the life giving spirits of Sauria.

And sauria is untouched for the same reason many small third world countries are untouched by the U.S. Its very small, desolate, out of the way, valueless, and just as unimportant as fruit in a steak house

Prove it. If true, remind me why we're trying desperately to SAVE IT for the entire game, or are you not thinking?

oh, and command did happen, but only up into the point of the prolouge ending, after that the stroy is uncannon, and therefor doesn't really exsist.

It does exist, though, by virtue of being in an installment of the game continuing from an earlier entry. It's not like some alternate universe, it's a collection of what-if and while the events aren't canon, it still counts for the sake of discussing holes in Krystal's character.

and trying to say krystal was a jerk in command is void, BECAUSE i could easly point out a path of gameplay where she isn't.

And that cancels what, exactly? That's like me killing someone and pleading innocent by pointing out a day where I hadn't murdered someone. Furthermore, Krystal becomes vengeful no matter what route you take, and even then in Adventures itself there's a hole in the "pure of heart" trait in the ending.

[Shadow Matrix]

Cerinia

Magic

Telepathy

Flight skill in short amount of time

Romance subplots (especially in Command) coupled with her "pure of heart" description

Her vengefulness in Command following the same

Explain all of those and you win.

I'll give this a shot.

Cerina - An Anicent old race that have ezisted for centuries but have not been seen or heard about in the Lylat System until Krystal appeared. A Planet far off the Lylat System. Most likely destroyed from another being. I would say Aparoids, but then again Krystal would've realized that the Aparoid were the ones who killed off her race and inform you. But thus saying, Cerina would be explained a bit more if the company who made Krystal and was making her in her own game didn't sell her...

Magic - They developed artifacts like Krystal's staff and shit. Using prehistoric technology and powerful energy sources they found in shrines.

Telepath - I DOn't know that is just fucking retarded imo.. ALIENS? Well..

Flight Skill - Fox most likely taught her how to fly. But still she is just as a shitty pilot as Slippy. She needs help in Assault just as much as Slippy does... So yeah. But Fox couldnt teach her much in a year.. She don't got much flight skill to be honest...

Romance Subplots - Moodswings?

Vengenfulness - Moodswings??

Ahh who am I kidding, I'm bullshiting myself, these are terrible explainations and assumptions. Lol and I wasn't trying at the last 3 to be honest

And about the plot whole thing.. many characters have plot holes...

Panther - WHo the fuck is he? He just got thrown in. I don't know who he is? where did he come from?

[Thu'um]

Oh please. And you say Krystal needs backstory when that's "uneeded info" too. You're pulling this out of your ass and you KNOW it, the destruction of a planet that may or may not be connected to Andross is VERY important, doubly so when that same plot point was all Krystal had in Adventures.

Which is your own fanfic bullshit. As far as the rest of us are concerned, it came from nowhere and made no sense when contrasted with only all of SF and SF64. Command and Assualt to some degree too.

Prove it. If true, remind me why we're trying desperately to SAVE IT for the entire game, or are you not thinking?

It does exist, though, by virtue of being in an installment of the game continuing from an earlier entry. It's not like some alternate universe, it's a collection of what-if and while the events aren't canon, it still counts for the sake of discussing holes in Krystal's character.

And that cancels what, exactly? That's like me killing someone and pleading innocent by pointing out a day where I hadn't murdered someone. Furthermore, Krystal becomes vengeful no matter what route you take, and even then in Adventures itself there's a hole in the "pure of heart" trait in the ending.

i have stated, and we have even agreed on this. I feel the characters don't need to be very strong. Cerenia's development would only be interesting not important. and trust me i don't make up stuff to save my argument, i only argue with what i know.

Firstly, if its restricted to cerenia, then how can fox use magic?

The introduction of magic doesn't destory what we know, it only builds upon our knowaldge of their universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-Z9g9MzYT8&feature=related at about 2:07 he says spirts that bring life to the planet. and remember how the spell stones didn't work? the krazoa were needed to repair the planet.

krystal is not vengful in all paths, not vengful in MOST at that. and yes it did happen and it could be used to describe a character, it like grasping at straws

[Milkyway64]

Ahh who am I kidding, I'm bullshiting myself, these are terrible explainations and assumptions. Lol and I wasn't trying at the last 3 to be honest

Saves me the trouble of typing.

And about the plot whole thing.. many characters have plot holes...

Panther - WHo the fuck is he? He just got thrown in. I don't know who he is? where did he come from?

They do, yes, but Krystal IS one. Panther for example is much like Leon or any of the other villains, he's a quirky guy meant for you to shoot. He has a unique (in the series) character and generally is a lot of fun.

i have stated, and we have even agreed on this. I feel the characters don't need to be very strong. Cerenia's development would only be interesting not important. and trust me i don't make up stuff to save my argument, i only argue with what i know.

And yet you claim that Krystal is your all time fave for her deep personality and friendship crap and etc etc. No, the characters don't have to be strong. But yes, they must fit a mold suited for a scifi. Tribal mages in minimal clothing is Final Fantasy's forte, not Star Fox.

As for Cerinia itself, yeah, it kiiiinda matters as it is only the event that INTRODUCED A MAJOR CHARACTER and her subplot in Adventures was built around it.

Firstly, if its restricted to cerenia, then how can fox use magic?

Because of that staff, I never said it was restricted to Cerinia, I said that Krystal is cerinian and thus so is her staff, so Cerinia and Sauria both have magic and both were introduced in the game that opened these plotholes.

The introduction of magic doesn't destory what we know, it only builds upon our knowaldge of their universe.

at about 2:07 he says spirts that bring life to the planet. and remember how the spell stones didn't work? the krazoa were needed to repair the planet.

Then why didn't Andross use this stuff? Why are Cornerian fighters not equiped with blizzard spell shooters, and why can't landmasters cause earthquakes? You just used the fact that Fox can use magic as proof that anyone can, so why haven't they? They knew it was there because not only does General Pepper know of Sauria, but he knows the Earthwalkers and Peppy can supply detailed maps of it.

And yeah, but the Krazoa are still stupid and how and why Andross is connected to them is a total mystery.

krystal is not vengful in all paths, not vengful in MOST at that. and yes it did happen and it could be used to describe a character, it like grasping at straws

No matter what path you pick, IIRC, she either joins Star Wolf or the military for the express purpose of getting back at Fox. And, IIRC, all paths shes in has her talking to Fox with utter scorn.

[Thu'um]

And yet you claim that Krystal is your all time fave for her deep personality and friendship crap and etc etc. No, the characters don't have to be strong. But yes, they must fit a mold suited for a scifi. Tribal mages in minimal clothing is Final Fantasy's forte, not Star Fox.

As for Cerinia itself, yeah, it kiiiinda matters as it is only the event that INTRODUCED A MAJOR CHARACTER and her subplot in Adventures was built around it.

Because of that staff, I never said it was restricted to Cerinia, I said that Krystal is cerinian and thus so is her staff, so Cerinia and Sauria both have magic and both were introduced in the game that opened these plotholes.

Then why didn't Andross use this stuff? Why are Cornerian fighters not equiped with blizzard spell shooters, and why can't landmasters cause earthquakes? You just used the fact that Fox can use magic as proof that anyone can, so why haven't they? They knew it was there because not only does General Pepper know of Sauria, but he knows the Earthwalkers and Peppy can supply detailed maps of it.

And yeah, but the Krazoa are still stupid and how and why Andross is connected to them is a total mystery.

No matter what path you pick, IIRC, she either joins Star Wolf or the military for the express purpose of getting back at Fox. And, IIRC, all paths shes in has her talking to Fox with utter scorn.

firstly, Cerenia doesn't really mater, it blew up. why how or who isn't important inless you just would like to know more about krystal, Just look at the halo seires. they got off fine with out making a game about reach( WERE THE WHOLE SEIRES STARTS!) for several years, they only came and fild it in when they finished the master cheif saga

obvilously magic just seemed to be futile in assualt. sure the earth quakes were powerful, but you needed to have a charged staff then need gems that grew of plants, not the best weapon for an all out war if you ask me. the staff also had to be used by hand, imagin having to switch to the staff in assualt, you'd get massacured.

[Drasiana]

Oh my god why is this happening in all the threads.

AJC. REFER TO FIGURE A.

> Cerinia matters because it introduces Krystal's character (for the record it is never said to have "blown up")

> It is promptly forgotten and all of Krystal's backstory is disregarded

> She has no motives due to her forgotten backstory and therefore her role makes no sense, why do we need her? No character motivation shown.

> Adventures was weird because it remains the only Star Fox game to rely soley on magic instead of science-fiction elements

> The plot with Andross and the Krazoa makes no sense and even you admit it's full of holes

> Andross was hastily shoved into the plot last-minute, accounting for these holes; he was never intended as part of the main game

> Dinosaur Planet and Krystal were never meant to be part of Star Fox, but last minute changes forced them into it on the brink of a company sell-out

> Rare fucked up under these stresses, and there is no explanation for these plot holes because of it, so trying to explain them is futile

These are all facts. No one is saying you can't like Krystal or Adventures, but these are very prominent problems with the game, and any "fixes" are clearly not obvious enough to be satisfactory.

Seriously, these are the most vapid, circular arguments ever and almost EVERY THREAD is currently having to endure them. Can we have some forum-wide topic-change, please? My head is hurting from reading so many arguments along the lines of "Cerinia doesn't matter" "Yes it does" "Nuh-uh!" "Yeah-huh!".

Fox randomly knowing Krystal's name is not the sole reason behind the series decline. Come on people.