Where did Starfox go wrong?

[Thu'um]

HUH, while i could reply, i too are tires of the topic, i'll drop the subject.

I think star fox went wrong at command, it completly changed everythign we knew about the characters. And while going form 64 to adventrus may have been "strange" and "out of place" i thought it was a nice addition to the seires.

[ZM Anonymous]

HUH, while i could reply, i too are tires of the topic, i'll drop the subject.

I think star fox went wrong at command, it completly changed everythign we knew about the characters. And while going form 64 to adventrus may have been "strange" and "out of place" i thought it was a nice addition to the seires.

SF: Command = Shitty fanservice at its finest!

[Dr. Orange]

Command ruined the series, but it was somewhat of a good game.2 1/2 stars is the only way i could describe it.

Plus i hate how they made the characters sound. (Ah bale it gra la gr ba l ah) Translation: Enemy Contacts spoted, Engaging) How how does THAT make any sence?

[Milkyway64]

Command ruined the series, but it was somewhat of a good game.2 1/2 stars is the only way i could describe it.

It was already in a rut starting with Adventures and hitting full force with Assault.

Plus i hate how they made the characters sound. (Ah bale it gra la gr ba l ah) Translation: Enemy Contacts spoted, Engaging) How how does THAT make any sence?

SNES starfox did the same thing. It was most likely a throwback.

[Dr. Orange]

SNES starfox did the same thing. It was most likely a throwback.

Still on the SNES, is made somewhat of sence, unlike Command

[ZM Anonymous]

Still on the SNES, is made somewhat of sence, unlike Command

I think the DS wasn't capable of full voice dialogue because of memory. That's why you hear things like "Objection" and then a series of beeps and boops when the dialogue comes up. This applies to Command

[Thu'um]

SF: Command = Shitty fanservice at its finest!

don't exactly get what your saying, but i think i agree. trying to please all the fans is a big mistake.

Command ruined the series, but it was somewhat of a good game.2 1/2 stars is the only way i could describe it.

eh, command was only good, if you hadn't played a game in the rest of the seires.

@milky U can say the seires was already in bad postion from assualt. But thats only oppion, Many beilive that assualt and adventrues were fine.

[Drasiana]

Command couldn't have ruined the series because it's the last one to have come out. People shared the sentiment long before Command's release. Yeah? It's only an opinion? Yours is only an opinion too. This is all opinions. Saying "it's just an opinion" isn't going to make people stop believing and/or arguing for it or even agree with you, which is something you seem to be clamoring for.

You can't really deny these are true, from Adventures-on:

>Wild tonal shifts. None of the games seemed to take place in the same universe; grungy, magical Star Fox Adventures, to shiny, polished, anime-esque Assault, to...whatever the hell Command was.

>Wild gameplay shifts. Zelda clone, then third person shooter, then a STRATEGY game/flight shooter.

>Wild character shifts. Fox, Krystal, and Wolf especially were practically different people from game to game.

The games are all disconnected from one another. It's painfully obvious that they're all by different people who had a different idea of what the games should be, and none of those ideas agreed with each other. If you changed the character names and appearances from game to game, we could totally believe that Adventures, Assault and Command were never Star Fox games to begin with (and Adventures really wasn't).

Disharmony is where Star Fox went wrong. It can be argued this started with Adventures, but it persisted through Assault and Command. Even if Adventures screwed up somehow, minimal effort was made to remedy those problems.

[Thu'um]

Command couldn't have ruined the series because it's the last one to have come out. People shared the sentiment long before Command's release. Yeah? It's only an opinion? Yours is only an opinion too. This is all opinions. Saying "it's just an opinion" isn't going to make people stop believing and/or arguing for it or even agree with you, which is something you seem to be clamoring for.

You can't really deny these are true, from Adventures-on:

>Wild tonal shifts. None of the games seemed to take place in the same universe; grungy, magical Star Fox Adventures, to shiny, polished, anime-esque Assault, to...whatever the hell Command was.

>Wild gameplay shifts. Zelda clone, then third person shooter, then a STRATEGY game/flight shooter.

>Wild character shifts. Fox, Krystal, and Wolf especially were practically different people from game to game.

The games are all disconnected from one another. It's painfully obvious that they're all by different people who had a different idea of what the games should be, and none of those ideas agreed with each other. If you changed the character names and appearances from game to game, we could totally believe that Adventures, Assault and Command were never Star Fox games to begin with (and Adventures really wasn't).

Disharmony is where Star Fox went wrong. It can be argued this started with Adventures, but it persisted through Assault and Command. Even if Adventures screwed up somehow, minimal effort was made to remedy those problems.

I did say they were all oppions and i don't mean to trump any statements.

But most of these don't really matter to me^ . I played each game and loved each as it was. They all atleast were similer in some aspects. and then you get to command, which wasn't even actiony like the last few games. hack! it wasn't even staight! It completly riped up a story line that i loved, no mater how patchy you call it.

I actualy liked the tone shift from assualt to adventrues. it seemed apropriate to me really.

Theres nothing wrong when a seires that has a time line story that changes tone, or gamplay.

Fox does change, but wolf only seems diffrent because of his voice, Krystal didn't really change inless you count command. If you do then it depends on which route you take.

I see how one could not like the change form adventrues to assualt, but it would have gone on fine if the sequal had been more like another assualt. Instead we got Command. Which seems to me like neintedos idea to please a diverse fan base. I have to say it was a terrible idea.

[Milkyway64]

But most of these don't really matter to me^ . I played each game and loved each as it was. They all atleast were similer in some aspects. and then you get to command, which wasn't even actiony like the last few games. hack! it wasn't even staight! It completly riped up a story line that i loved, no mater how patchy you call it.

Honestly, what storyline? The only thing suggesting Assault's connection to Adventures at all was Krystal mentioning they met at Sauria. The only thing Command has that hints it was connected to either was Krystal period.

I actualy liked the tone shift from assualt to adventrues. it seemed apropriate to me really.

I assume you mean vice versa, but no. It wasn't appropriate as we went from DINOSAURS to iMac StarWars.

Theres nothing wrong when a seires that has a time line story that changes tone, or gamplay.

There isn't, but StarFox failed to do it right. Adventures, Assault, and Command were bad games in their own right, let alone connecting them in a series or having no idea what genre it is anymore.

Look at Kingdom Hearts for a series that did it right. First game was a bright, cheery game with FRIENDSHIP. Chain of Memories rolled around and changed the gameplay drastically, but still had the air of familiarity that the fans of the first recognized and loved, even if they didn't like CoM itself. Kingdom Hearts 2 came along and was a bit Dark and Edgier with a return to an improved KH1 gameplay, but it still FELT like a franchise. Birth By Sleep comes along after and that's grittier yet with another change in gameplay, but the heart (lololol) of the series was still there and you can FEEL it while even in the dark Birth By Sleep, you're beating Cinderella's cat with an oversized key. StarFox doesn't have this, thus the broken state of the fandom.

Fox does change, but wolf only seems diffrent because of his voice, Krystal didn't really change inless you count command. If you do then it depends on which route you take.

Krystal changed AS SOON AS COMMAND BEGAN and she changed between Adventure and Assault. Wolf changed between 64 and Assault, and again in Command. Dras - 1 AJC - 0

I see how one could not like the change form adventrues to assualt, but it would have gone on fine if the sequal had been more like another assualt. Instead we got Command. Which seems to me like neintedos idea to please a diverse fan base. I have to say it was a terrible idea.

As opposed to releasing another Assault, which would only please a tiny percent of it.

Thank god StarFox64 3DS is a step in the right direction.

[Drasiana]

It completly riped up a story line that i loved, no mater how patchy you call it.

What storyline would that be? You mean "random enemy A invades Lylat, go stop them"? Yeah sorry Command tore that storytelling depth away from you by...having the exact same plot as every other Star Fox game (with a soap opera twist, of course).

I actualy liked the tone shift from assualt to adventrues. it seemed apropriate to me really.

How?

Theres nothing wrong when a seires that has a time line story that changes tone, or gamplay.

Yes there is. There's a LOT wrong with a franchise that doesn't know what it wants to be. Sticking dinosaurs and magic into Star Fox was like sticking paranormal investigations into Baywatch, which totally happened. Guess how well that turned out?

Milky's example with Kingdom Hearts was good; the plot can be insane, but it DOES still feel like the same game, via aesthetic and themes. Star Fox looks and behaves differently in every single game.

What is a "timeline story", by the way? No, there is nothing wrong with HAVING A STORY (god forbid) but y'know it's pretty undesirable when the one you've got makes no sense at all and disregards all the story prior.

Fox does change, but wolf only seems diffrent because of his voice, Krystal didn't really change inless you count command. If you do then it depends on which route you take.

Wolf was a snarky but eloquant Brit who had no qualms over being a complete asshole about everything in 64. In Assault, he was a quiet, almost wise rogue with good intentions, and Command...was just strange.

Krystal was sassy in Adventures. First thing she does is smack-talk General Scales, then the first thing she does when she meets Fox is smack-talk him for stealing her staff. Assault rolls around and she's a polite, meek little thing.

I see how one could not like the change form adventrues to assualt, but it would have gone on fine if the sequal had been more like another assualt. Instead we got Command. Which seems to me like neintedos idea to please a diverse fan base. I have to say it was a terrible idea.

But you don't see how one could not like the change from 64 to Adventures? It went from a space shooter to Zelda. If you want to completely jar your fanbase out of any universe you've created, that's a way to do it.

[Rik McCloud]

But you don't see how one could not like the change from 64 to Adventures? It went from a space shooter to Zelda. If you want to completely jar your fanbase out of any universe you've created, that's a way to do it.

And you can't see how people who became Star Fox fans because of Adventures might have enjoyed the off track approach to the series expanding it to something more than just a space shooter? Just because they stick dinosaurs and magic into it doesn't mean it doesn't suit the series. Look at it this way.

When Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull was released, people said aliens didn't belong in an Indiana Jones movie because the rest of the movies focused on a religious artifact. The Crystal Skull Indie was after was the artifact that the aliens held in high regard. The theme was still there but people ignored it and were quick to criticise it.

Now can you see how a fan who came to the series during the Adventures period might think going back to SF64 is the wrong direction? That's like a Mario fan saying all Mario games have to be in 2D because that is when they were at their best. Mario has evolved into many different things so why can't Star Fox? It's not like they left out the whole space shooter premise. Adventures had segments, short and sweet as they were.

[Xortberg]

When Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull was released, people said aliens didn't belong in an Indiana Jones movie because the rest of the movies focused on a religious artifact. The Crystal Skull Indie was after was the artifact that the aliens held in high regard. The theme was still there but people ignored it and were quick to criticise it.

I criticized it because of Shia LeBeouf.

That's like a Mario fan saying all Mario games have to be in 2D because that is when they were at their best.

Actually, they really weren't. 3D Mario trumps the hell out of 2d.

[Drasiana]

And you can't see how people who became Star Fox fans because of Adventures might have enjoyed the off track approach to the series expanding it to something more than just a space shooter? Just because they stick dinosaurs and magic into it doesn't mean it doesn't suit the series. Look at it this way.

Star Fox was only put into Adventures because Miyamoto thought the character Sabre kind of looked like Fox. It was never their intention from the get-go to make a cool, ground-based Star Fox game, it just seemed to be something that happened on a whim; possibly as a ploy to boost sales, having the Star Fox name attached.

When Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull was released, people said aliens didn't belong in an Indiana Jones movie because the rest of the movies focused on a religious artifact. The Crystal Skull Indie was after was the artifact that the aliens held in high regard. The theme was still there but people ignored it and were quick to criticise it.

Crystal Skull had more problems than just aliens, and Adventures had more problems than just magic. By your comparison, though, 64 and Adventures are STILL jarringly different from one another. Yeah, Crystal Skull is still about obtaining an artifact. Adventures is all about obtaining artifacts too. However, 64 was not. Adventures being the sequel to 64 is not like Crystal Skull being a sequel to The Last Crusade, it's like Crystal Skull being a sequel to Return of the Jedi.

Now can you see how a fan who came to the series during the Adventures period might think going back to SF64 is the wrong direction? That's like a Mario fan saying all Mario games have to be in 2D because that is when they were at their best. Mario has evolved into many different things so why can't Star Fox? It's not like they left out the whole space shooter premise.

Mario started off with plot and character depth just above Pong and has basically maintained that, but within a world that we've always known to be whimsical and goofy. The series can get away with doing whatever the hell it wants because it's always been in that sort of setup with characters that are simple and malleable. Star Fox is very narrative and world-based, so jerking the setting and tone around isn't as believable. I'm sure people would raise some eyebrows if we gave Mario a sword and dumped him into a war-torn Aztec jungle and tried making things super serious...better yet, look at the Mario movie.

Adventures had segments, short and sweet as they were.

They were short and terrible.

Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting that all games be exact replicas of 64. I liked some ideas that Adventures, Assault and Command had, but the thing is they didn't utilize them to their best extent and in a way that functioned believably with prior games. Not just 64, but each other. Assault had no influence from Adventures and Command had no influence from Assault. They were disjointed.

[Rik McCloud]

Star Fox was only put into Adventures because Miyamoto thought the character Sabre kind of looked like Fox. It was never their intention from the get-go to make a cool, ground-based Star Fox game, it just seemed to be something that happened on a whim; possibly as a ploy to boost sales, having the Star Fox name attached.

Dinosaur Planet was being developed for the Nintendo 64 which was approaching the end of its commercial life. Rather than releasing it for a soon to be defunct console, it made sense to bring it to the GameCube and add a character people would recognise.

Crystal Skull had more problems than just aliens, and Adventures had more problems than just magic. By your comparison, though, 64 and Adventures are STILL jarringly different from one another. Yeah, Crystal Skull is still about obtaining an artifact. Adventures is all about obtaining artifacts too. However, 64 was not. Adventures being the sequel to 64 is not like Crystal Skull being a sequel to The Last Crusade, it's like Crystal Skull being a sequel to Return of the Jedi.

I'll concede the point here and perhaps Indiana Jones was not the right comparison to make. Taking on your point, it's more comparable to the Halloween movies. When they got to the third one, they changed a lot of things, including getting rid of Michael Myers. Whilst it worked as a good horror film, it wasn't exactly what fans were expecting.

Mario started off with plot and character depth just above Pong and has basically maintained that, but within a world that we've always known to be whimsical and goofy. The series can get away with doing whatever the hell it wants because it's always been in that sort of setup with characters that are simple and malleable. Star Fox is very narrative and world-based, so jerking the setting and tone around isn't as believable. I'm sure people would raise some eyebrows if we gave Mario a sword and dumped him into a war-torn Aztec jungle and tried making things super serious...better yet, look at the Mario movie.

I have to disagree with this point. If a lava dwelling monster can live on Solar, then I don't see a reason why dinosaurs can't live on another planet. Also, I believed Fox was more of a mercenary because he got out into the field and started using hand to hand combat against enemies. If anything, Adventures made him feel more like a real character for me than SF64 did.

They were short and terrible.

Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting that all games be exact replicas of 64. I liked some ideas that Adventures, Assault and Command had, but the thing is they didn't utilize them to their best extent and in a way that functioned believably with prior games. Not just 64, but each other. Assault had no influence from Adventures and Command had no influence from Assault. They were disjointed.

I think of each Star Fox game as a new experience because none of them are quite the same. It's the variation that I enjoy and it's what makes the series unique for me. Again, they all have an underlying theme but it's how the theme is explored that interests me. Maybe I'm reading more into it than needs to be but as an experience, each offers something different. Again, I liken it to Mario. They have certain elements that were the same but different avenues are explored in terms of game play. What it comes down to is which experience people liked best. I know it started as a space shooter and I totally understand why people want it to stay that way because of points you have made clear but for people who joined the fan base half way like me, it was the exposure to something new that means I feel the way I do. Whilst I played SF64 before Adventures and thought it was good, it never grabbed me like Adventures did.

[Milkyway64]

I know it started as a space shooter and I totally understand why people want it to stay that way because of points you have made clear but for people who joined the fan base half way like me, it was the exposure to something new that means I feel the way I do. Whilst I played SF64 before Adventures and thought it was good, it never grabbed me like Adventures did.

Rik McCloud's most looked forward to game:

Seriously we don't need a second Zelda series. The Zelda series we already have at least vaguely holds a continuity and actually has substance beyond it's half naked vixen mascot.

Adventures fantards are really, really perplexing.

[Drasiana]

Dinosaur Planet was being developed for the Nintendo 64 which was approaching the end of its commercial life. Rather than releasing it for a soon to be defunct console, it made sense to bring it to the GameCube and add a character people would recognise.

That was my point. It was never their intent to make a new Star Fox game because it was innovative, they just stuck Fox in there because having a recognizable character might increase sales.

I'll concede the point here and perhaps Indiana Jones was not the right comparison to make. Taking on your point, it's more comparable to the Halloween movies. When they got to the third one, they changed a lot of things, including getting rid of Michael Myers. Whilst it worked as a good horror film, it wasn't exactly what fans were expecting.

Personally I prefer the "Crystal-Skull-as-Star-Wars-sequel" to the "Halloween 3" option. Yuck.

I have to disagree with this point. If a lava dwelling monster can live on Solar, then I don't see a reason why dinosaurs can't live on another planet. Also, I believed Fox was more of a mercenary because he got out into the field and started using hand to hand combat against enemies. If anything, Adventures made him feel more like a real character for me than SF64 did.

Missing the point. I never said dinosaurs themselves were the problem, I said that changing the entire world and gameplay mechanic was a problem. I also said that Mario could get away with it because of its unrealistic approach to the story and characters, which makes it different than Star Fox, therefore the same rules do not apply. Mario could do whatever he wants because there aren't any strings attached, but with Star Fox there ARE lots of strings. Other than the characters being there (not their behaviour), what about Star Fox Adventures made it a sequel to 64?

Fox in Adventures was my favourite incarnation of his character. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they completely changed the gameplay genre.

I think of each Star Fox game as a new experience because none of them are quite the same. It's the variation that I enjoy and it's what makes the series unique for me. Again, they all have an underlying theme but it's how the theme is explored that interests me.

What theme is that? There is a difference between premise and theme.

Maybe I'm reading more into it than needs to be but as an experience, each offers something different. Again, I liken it to Mario. They have certain elements that were the same but different avenues are explored in terms of game play. What it comes down to is which experience people liked best. I know it started as a space shooter and I totally understand why people want it to stay that way because of points you have made clear but for people who joined the fan base half way like me, it was the exposure to something new that means I feel the way I do. Whilst I played SF64 before Adventures and thought it was good, it never grabbed me like Adventures did.

And again, I too enjoyed different elements of the post-64 games, but again, my point was NOT "BAAAW FAWKS IS ON-FOOT STAR FOX IS RUINED". It's that the games actually have nothing to do with each other, but try to maintain the illusion that they do through an inconsistent plot. What differences in gameplay there are aren't used to nearly the extent they could be.

Imagine if they included the Landmaster or a blaster in Adventures, or if using the Krazoa gave you some sort of power, or you had a chance to fly the Arwing on the planet and could interact more with Slippy, Peppy, Krystal and Falco. With Assault, imagine if there was some sort of realistic physics engine, or if the ground missions were more varied (as opposed to just SHOOT THE HATCHERS). Imagine if Command...had more than just the same all-range mode levels over and over and over.

It's not that they use magic or on-foot gameplay or strategy elements, it's that they don't use them to nearly the extent they could have, and they're all poorly bound together with an awful plot and characters whose personalities completely change based on the game. What is Star Fox supposed to be anymore? The developers have lost sight of what they want out of this franchise.

[Rik McCloud]

Adventures fantards are really, really perplexing.

Wow... that was harsh.

[Milkyway64]

Wow... that was harsh.

No it wasn't. You guys genuinely confuse me. I see no reason at all for Adventures fandom. It has places where it can be praised, but it's Zeeeldaaaaa. Only WORSE.

[Rik McCloud]

No it wasn't. You guys genuinely confuse me. I see no reason at all for Adventures fandom. It has places where it can be praised, but it's Zeeeldaaaaa. Only WORSE.

Being called a "fantard" for stating why I liked the game and for giving my opinion on how I feel about the series because of it, is harsh.

[Drasiana]

Yeah ok let's be nice and try to hold up a discussion here people.

I posted a response to you, Rik. Thoughts? c:

[Milkyway64]

Being called a "fantard" for stating why I liked the game and for giving my opinion on how I feel about the series because of it, is harsh.

Rik, if that makes you sad, I suggest getting off the internet for a while until a harmless term no longer offends you. Yes, you're an adventures fantard. Just as we have pony fantards here and I'm a Metroid fantard. Get it? Okay. Good. Let's explain.

A fantard is a fanboy who takes their thing of choice further than it needs to. You, as a Krystal fantard, take your fondness for Adventures far further than ever needed by SUGGESTING WE HAVE TWO ZELDA SERIES. A furry version, and normal, quality Zelda not plagued by rushed, changed-part-way development swiss cheese for plot mess that was Adventures. You may like Adventures if you want. Suggesting it belonged in the series or should be the new standard is quite literally taking a piss on a big part of my childhood and kicking the grave of a once solid Nintendo franchise gracing our SNES's and N64 with the added benefit of advencing gaming technology.

[Rik McCloud]

Right, thank you for clearing up the meaning of that term. Like you said about the meaning of it, seems I was reading into it too much as I hadn't heard of it before.

As for our views on the series, I am not here to deliberately rock the boat and as you put it, piss on a part of your childhood. We have different memories and different ideologies so naturally, our views are going to clash.

I think the point that I wanted to get across but lost along the way was that if there was a new Star Fox game that took the good of SF64 and the good of the GameCube titles coupling them with a story that actually does something other than add a frame work for levels, I think we could meet in a happy medium. The chances of this feel very remote and will probably only happen in our dreams but whatever. It was through my disappointment of waiting five years for something new and getting a remake of a remake that's made me increasingly frustrated.

Anyway, I'm sorry for any offence caused.

[Drasiana]

Who's offended? You actually posed a sane argument, which is a breath of fresh air indeed.

if there was a new Star Fox game that took the good of SF64 and the good of the GameCube titles coupling them with a story that actually does something other than add a frame work for levels, I think we could meet in a happy medium.

^ THIS

[Rik McCloud]

I want what everybody else on this forum wants. A Star Fox game that will appeal to fans past, present and future. It is not an impossible thing to do. It's whether or not Nintendo is interested and I do not believe that they are.