Women.

[Redeemer]

A group of people are on a plane, in the middle of their flight. Suddenly, a voice booms over the intercom that the plane is totally failing that that they were going to crash. Panic erupted.

A woman in the front seat stands up, her eyes crazed with fear. She screams:

"I don't want to die frightened! I want someone to make me feel like a real woman!"

The man next to her stands up, takes his shirt off, throws it at her and replies:

"Here, iron this!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I'm a woman, and I still find that hilarious. The point of this topic is to discuss the traditional role of the female vs. the modern female in today's society.

Personally, I'm not one of those women that gets all mad when asked to make a sandwich. I'll pretend to be mad, for the sake of the joke maybe. My mother is a housewife - she does all the cleaning, cooking and general housekeeping. So being raised around her and that activity, I can understand why those things were my mother's jobs.

And it's not just because my dad is lazy, haha. My mother did things certain ways that my dad couldn't even hope to measure up to. My mother was the cook, and my dad was never too good at that. Why is she a good cook? Because she learned from her mother, and so it goes on. This is tradition dictating that women are, in fact, excellent in the kitchen. And I don't disagree. Sure, men can be awesome cooks, I have no illusions. But put it this way - I feel more comfortable eating a meal that a woman made, and even better, one that I made myself.

Now, cleaning. I can personally vote for women being better at that. Why? I used to live with 5 male friends. That place was a shithole, as was their bedrooms. Sure, when we all worked together we got the place pretty clean. But only when the landlord raged at us. I like a clean kitchen especially, since cooking is one of my passions, and that kitchen was... If it WAS a woman, it would have been a whore riddled with herpes. It was a disaster zone.

Every male friend I have has a super messy bedroom, no exceptions. Clothes on the floor, cans and food packaging everywhere, etc. I assume it's just the male way of living.

Women, traditionally, are the ones who raise children. I have no issues with this. Many women now prefer to pursue a career, which is all well and good, but that means possibly delaying the birth of their first child. Men are workers, and psychologically are more comfortable with being the bread-winner, from what I've learned anyway. To have a child and still want a career would be somewhat selfish for a woman, because the children don't get the nurturing from the mother that they essentially need for a happy upbringing.

What are your opinions on the traditional female role? And yes, all those "get back in the kitchen", "make me a sandwich" jokes are all very well and good, but let's be serious here. :3

[Steve]

In all seriousness tho, Housedads are becoming something common lately , I wouldn't mind being one, since I'm waaay more organised than Sara and I'm a clean-freak while she's a messy-freak, so it would definitely work, however, I have the skills of a true male when it comes to the kitchen, that would be the only disadvantage.

I still have a tendency to go:

but then I get the response of "MAKE ME A SANDWICH", which makes me sad.

I truly believe the role is slowly reverting in some places xD, instead of going for balance, women are starting to act more macho like while men are starting to be more like wimps.

[Nova]

See this plate?

There's no sandwich on it....

WHAT THE FUCK WOMAN?

But in all seriousness women have the same role as men, They can both just as easily be the bigger provider for the family and each sex has the same ability to cook and clean.

Equality is a good thing.

If theres ANYTHING, The male should be dominated by the woman because women deserve to be treated like nothing but the best.

[Fira-Astrali]

Well, I think it has a good deal to so with personality and ability now, instead of just gender. My dad is the one that does almost all the cooking and cleaning. He's probably the best cook in the house, and he... well he just cleans alot ^^;

And I personally think that Asper is much more organized/ cleaner than me (of course I haven't seen his room yet ) from what I saw at christmas.

As for the kid thing, I think it's pretty selfish for there not to be one parent home all the time, at least juggled so that its a different parent home at different times but the child isn't alone

I don't agree with the bit about it being selfish on the woman's part, since its just as important for the man to be home and have a good relationship with his children too. I mean, the father teaches his son how to treat others, and teaches his daughter how men are to treat her.

Of course, I'm one of those women that would get pretty pissed off if a guy tried to throw his weight around on me. That's not to say I would flip shit if Asper asked me to make him a sandwich, he knows I like to cook and if does the dishes I'm game

I truly believe the role is slowly reverting in some places xD, instead of going for balance, women are starting to act more macho like while men are starting to be more like wimps.

I've actually been read many articles that say exactly that ^^;

[Redeemer]

I don't agree with the bit about it being selfish on the woman's part, since its just as important for the man to be home and have a good relationship with his children too. I mean, the father teaches his son how to treat others, and teaches his daughter how men are to treat her.

Oh yeah, it's important for the man to be heavily present, but I do feel that the presence of the mother is slightly more important. The mother is the one who breastfeeds, and just by doing that, forms a bond with the child that is unique. When a baby is born, the only person it can recognise is it's mother. The first face is learns is that of it's mother.

The way a father raises a child is different from how a mother raises a child, and both kinds of raising are super important. But I just feel that wanting a career while having a young child around is a little unfair on the child - every child needs their mother.

But don't get me wrong, the father is really important, but a different kind of important, is what I'm trying to say. Does that make sense? :/

[Fira-Astrali]

totally. And yeah, I forgot about breastfeeding, that's a big deal I agree about your different kind of important as well.

[Sarita]

Steve would be better outside the house than I would. >_> I have too strong of a personality and would be miserable having to work with people.

I think it depends on the couple, and the balance they should strike with each other. <: For Steve and myself, it's definitely an odd balance, but we're still trying to figure it out.

[Thu'um]

Steve would be better outside the house than I would. >_> I have too strong of a personality and would be miserable having to work with people.

I think it depends on the couple, and the balance they should strike with each other. <: For Steve and myself, it's definitely an odd balance, but we're still trying to figure it out.

ym mom's mor of a man then dad

sorry no idea why i quoted you

[Deploy]

Men and women are equal. That's all I have to say. :lol:

[Thu'um]

Men and women are equal. That's all I have to say.

i have to say though, ther have been some stupid laws put in place based on this comment, but yea they really are

[Redeemer]

Men and women are equal. That's all I have to say.

Okay okay okay, there seems to be some confusion on what this topic is about. I KNOW men and women are equal, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm talking about gender roles, as I've taken interest in them since studying them in social psychology.

I don't at all, in the slightest, think that women are above or below men. I know they are equal, especially in today's society. BUT I was curious on people's opinions on traditional female vs. today's female. That's all - it's not men vs. women, jeez. XD

[Thu'um]

Okay okay okay, there seems to be some confusion on what this topic is about. I KNOW men and women are equal, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm talking about gender roles, as I've taken interest in them since studying them in social psychology.

I don't at all, in the slightest, think that women are above or below men. I know they are equal, especially in today's society. BUT I was curious on people's opinions on traditional female vs. today's female. That's all - it's not men vs. women, jeez. XD

okay, well lets take a look about hmm, 1800 years ago at he amozonien woman, also reffered to as head hunters. they had very manly roles

[Deploy]

Okay okay okay, there seems to be some confusion on what this topic is about. I KNOW men and women are equal, I'm not saying they aren't. I'm talking about gender roles, as I've taken interest in them since studying them in social psychology.

I don't at all, in the slightest, think that women are above or below men. I know they are equal, especially in today's society. BUT I was curious on people's opinions on traditional female vs. today's female. That's all - it's not men vs. women, jeez. XD

I never said you thought one gender was superior lol

Was just stating that they're equal just cuz :lol:

[Star Fox Runner]

I'm all for equality of the sexes, but I still think that someone should stay home with the children, whether it be the mother or the father.

My parents both have always had full time jobs 40 miles away in the city, and sometimes they would work late. And seeing how I lived out in the country I couldn't just walk home from school. So I was pretty much raised by both sets of Grandparents.

I didn't see mom that much when I was little, when she worked for Jostens, she was constantly on business trips, and as a teacher then principle at multiple high schools, she had to do a lot of meetings. Things are all right now, but I think I could have had a better relationship with her as a child if I had seen her more often.

I think women should have just as many opportunities as men, but I agree with Redeemer, a women should definitely have a strong relationship with her child, and that does mean probably staying at home.

[Drasiana]

I disagree with gender roles in general. Yes, mothers should form a bond with their children, but so should the fathers. I also disagree entirely that it's selfish; often both parents need to work to be able to provide an income. I mean, I know my mom didn't exactly enjoy dedicating 80% of her time to several dead-end jobs, but she did it to make a living...so she could help support her children.

What bothers me about gender roles are statements like this.

I mean, the father teaches his son how to treat others, and teaches his daughter how men are to treat her.

I find this annoyingly defining for both men and women, and even if this is not your implication with that statement, there are others who would imply this. There's something innately bothersome about a man telling a woman how men should treat her. I think a woman can decide for herself how she wants to be treated; you don't need daddy to tell you that being abused is bad to get the memo. Telling a young girl not to let guys have their way with her is one thing, but that's something only the father can do? What this does is give girls a certain expectation of men that continues to perpetuate the rediculous notion that men and women are somehow different species entirely. And that expectation of men is perpetuated by men.

Why can't a father teach his daughter how to treat others in general? Why just what she should expect from a man?

The idea of "girl things" and "boy things" has always bothered me, right from when I was in preschool. On the floor we all had stickers with our names on them, and that's where we sat. The girls had pink, the boys had blue. Well, blue was my favourite colour, and I was annoyed that I could not have a blue sticker just because I was a girl. And the explanation I got as to why only boys could get blue never exceeded explanation past "because that's the way it is". Now, I know there wasn't any hidden EVIL SEXIST INTENTIONS with making girls sit on the pink stickers, but I'm not sure the reason to this day; do they have difficulties telling the children's gender apart to such an extreme extent that they need to be colour-coded?

A more recent example that unnerved me was with my cohorts and a common complaint about being unable to write voices in another gender. They get stressed out, constantly asking me and the other female writers if their dialogue "sounds like something a woman would say". And honestly, I don't know how to answer that. There isn't some hidden, underlying dialect that only women innately know. And this was something backed up by my well-regarded, female teacher, who suggested to replace all the female names with male ones, then switch them back after the dialogue has been written. The difference in gender dialogue is negligible, unless there's a very specific type of character you're writing in which gender role is direly important to them.

The thing I find most distressing about gender roles is not throwaway jabs like "get back in the kitchen". It's behavioral notes that women adhere to, not because it's instinctive for women only, but because they've grown up believing they are. They perpetuate their own roles and don't allow themselves the lenience to be who they are, simply because who they are isn't always necessarily "lady-like". Think of how many times you've heard: Women hate blowjobs. Coolers are "girly" drinks. Men have to hold the door open for women. Not that I'll punch out a man for being a sexist pig for opening the door for me, but if I get to that door first, I'll hold it open for him. I love fruity drinks, but I love beer. I'll neglect to comment on blowjobs just because I'm trying to keep this PG-13, but it's kind of annoying that it's acceptable for guys to love blowjobs, but any woman who loves giving them is a slut.

Having to have children at all is an annoying expectation of women as well; that you're a failure to society because you don't pop one out is frankly insulting. Wanting to have a child because you want one is fine...but wanting to have one so you don't feel judged by your friends and family is entirely unhealthy, in my opinion, and really. I don't think not wanting to have a child, just because you don't want one, is selfish at all. But wanting to have one so you look better to the general worldview is.

This is getting way tl;dr so I'll try to sum it up the best I can: Women are not better at their "roles" because they have some secret special woman talent that allows them to be. It's because it's so engrained into them, via family tradition and almost all media especially that directed at them, that girls do girls things and boys do boy things; whether that be women cook and clean while men work, or girls wear pink and boys wear blue. And this goes both ways. Men can be awesome at cooking and cleaning. Women can excel at their jobs. And I won't insult a man if he likes the colour pink.

[Redeemer]

Men can be awesome at cooking and cleaning. Women can excel at their jobs. And I won't insult a man if he likes the colour pink.

I already referred to that in a previous post, I'm just giving my personal feeling on things. I don't see women as having any "special talents", and men don't either - my point was that different genders are better at different things due to built skills via tradition. But I suck at explaining stuff properly so I'm the worst debater in the world. D:

I'm studying mental health and counselling (which has a lot of psychology in it), gender roles piss me off too - but for other people. I personally am comfortable with my "role" namely because I'm laid back about stuff like that. I still encourage others to "break the mold", I just don't do it myself. And if a man ever expects too much of me, I will tell him so.

I don't think not wanting to have a child, just because you don't want one, is selfish at all. But wanting to have one so you look better to the general worldview is.

Dras, I think you're misunderstanding what I said there about mothers wanting careers. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear - I was referring to the case where the family has both parents present. When I was typing that, I had in mind some of my mother's friends who take their child to a relative's place every day so that they can be looked after when no one's at home. I was also thinking about my own aunt, who never spent any time with her kids and now has a hard time relating to them at all.

I understand that single mothers need jobs - I did a placement during my previous degree where I was working with single mothers to help them build their skills to get jobs. I just wasn't thinking about them when I was discussing this before, my bad. XD

If people don't want kids, that's awesome. I myself am still trying to make up my mind, haha.

Actualy, interesting fact - someone, referring to this topic, called me "traditionally modern". I feel that is a good say to sum up how I am, as I can laugh at sexism, not take offense and am aware of my rights as a woman, yet I chose to "conform" to tradition just because that's what I am comfortable with.

And funnily enough, when I introduce myself online, most people think I'm a guy. I think it's because I don't have the recognisable "girly" personality, which I don't understand, considering my previous feelings expressed in this topic. I guess that's evidence that gender roles are indeed reversing!

[Fira-Astrali]

find this annoyingly defining for both men and women, and even if this is not your implication with that statement, there are others who would imply this. There's something innately bothersome about a man telling a woman how men should treat her.

But the thing is, it's kinda true. A father serves as a role model for his son, whether good or bad. And the father is the first male role model his daughter has as well. I learned what kind of behaviour I should expect from a "good" man by observig how he treats me, and how he treats my mom. And it's carried over into my adult life, because I ended up picking a partner that is alot like my father.

[Asper Sarnoff]

And I personally think that Asper is much more organized/ cleaner than me (of course I haven't seen his room yet ) from what I saw at christmas.

That was only to impress you babe.

PS.

SAMNICH!!!

[Drasiana]

Dras, I think you're misunderstanding what I said there about mothers wanting careers. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear - I was referring to the case where the family has both parents present.

Actually, I didn't misunderstand it at all. Even before my parents were divorced or after my mother got remarried, it was mandatory that they both worked; otherwise we wouldn't have survived financially. My parents, my brother and I, and later my three step siblings. Personally, I would have preferred to see my mother work in a job she loved than one she hated; at least there would have been something inspirational about her time away from us as kids.

But the thing is, it's kinda true. A father serves as a role model for his son, whether good or bad. And the father is the first male role model his daughter has as well. I learned what kind of behaviour I should expect from a "good" man by observig how he treats me, and how he treats my mom. And it's carried over into my adult life, because I ended up picking a partner that is alot like my father.

That's assuming that one has a standard, "cookie-cutter" family, which is becoming less and less common with rising divorce rates. This mentality backfires horribly if one of the parents is abusive or anything less than, well, "good" by general standards. That parents will become their children's role models is inevitable, but it doesn't need to be segregated teaching. Think of the classic example of the dad who's disappointed he doesn't have a son because he wants to be able to throw the ol' pigskin around with his there son. He can do that with his daughter, too...a daughter that can still like makeup and girly things, like her mother. Both mother and father have it within their capacity to retain wisdom and basic knowledge of life, regardless of their gender. What bothered me about what I originally quoted of yours was specifcally "dads teach their sons how to treat everyone, and their daughters how men are to treat them". Even if it's with the female's best intentions, it's still best intentions as dictated by a man. The basic laws of respect and tolerance apply to both genders; yes, you can teach your daughter not to be a bitch to boys, but it's the same way you can teach your son not to be a dick to girls. And in both situations, it just ties back to simple human respect.

Interestingly enough--and this ties back to both things I have quoted--efforts by parents to teach "girl things" and "boy things" may wind up damaging. My mother, a very feminine person's, constantly attempting to make me do "girl things" always made me feel insanely uncomfortable and caused many fights. I'm not entirely inclined to those sorts of things; not because I have body image issues or I "want to be a boy" (an insult I hear quite often directed at more tomboyish girls), just because...it wasn't me, and her trying to force it to be me resulted in a lot of stress and foul moods.

Edit: It also occurs to me to say that I don't want it to look like I'm attacking either of you, this is just my thoughts on the topics in general

[Fira-Astrali]

SAMNICH!!!

Make your own damn samnich! XD

[Thu'um]

I'm all for equality of the sexes, but I still think that someone should stay home with the children, whether it be the mother or the father.

My parents both have always had full time jobs 40 miles away in the city, and sometimes they would work late. And seeing how I lived out in the country I couldn't just walk home from school. So I was pretty much raised by both sets of Grandparents.

I didn't see mom that much when I was little, when she worked for Jostens, she was constantly on business trips, and as a teacher then principle at multiple high schools, she had to do a lot of meetings. Things are all right now, but I think I could have had a better relationship with her as a child if I had seen her more often.

I think women should have just as many opportunities as men, but I agree with Redeemer, a women should definitely have a strong relationship with her child, and that does mean probably staying at home.

good statement, but i am ver close to my mother, and she has a full time job. she constantly travels and i see her about 3/4 of the year. i guess i am lucky but thats still alot of time from home. Yet, i don't feel any need to bond with my mother. I do, and i love her and everyhing, but i guess i am just an independent person.

[Drasiana]

Way to revive a month old topic with a stunning contribution argument

oh wait

[Harlow]

Women can do all they want as long as they don't drive

XD

Seriously, I do think both genders can do whatever they propose. We'll never be exactly equal, but mutual respect si always possible.

I was told once that some women don't really comprehend or don't know how to handle their freedom of rights and eventually, their freedom works against them.

[Drasiana]

We'll never be exactly equal,

I was told once that some women don't really comprehend or don't know how to handle their freedom of rights and eventually, their freedom works against them.

I'm sorry, what?

Did you just suggest the ability to vote, choose who they want to marry instead of it being dictated, equal pay and legal rights, are a bad thing for women?

[unoservix]

well of course

that's all time you could have spent making me a goddamned sandwich

srsly what the hell Harlow, there goes your "mutual respect" thing