Remember Shadows of Lylat?

[VypersnakeX]

Remember those awesome trailers? Those amazing graphics? The few, but great songs? Wouldn't you like to get a bit of news on the game? I know I do. I am wanting to see, at the very least, a picture, a picture of something that they have recently made. They haven't made an update in over a year, and I want to see at least a "We're not dead" from the producers. DZComposer is part of this project, so why can't he just post something about it on the forum? Come on DZ, tell us that the project is still going! And I know we would all like that.

[Robert Monroe]

Shadows of Lylat has been in the works since I first got into Starfox in the early 2000s. It ain't goin anywhere.

[Redeemer]

My sister was to voice act for it but she said it's dead.

[Rin]

It was a very nice idea, but like the others have said, it's pretty much dead. =/

[Sabre]

This is the fate of most fan games/mods. Usually it's over ambition.

Almost any mod, game, cartoon, or other big project will post a few a work in pregress renders or animation frames, maybe a text wall describing the plot and how awesome it's going to be, then it vanishes. Sometimes it's drama, sometimes it's legal, but most of the time it's people making promises they can't keep.

Games, even simple ones, take alot of skill to put together. It's a running joke of sorts in game design/programing that some kid will turn up, announce to the world that he is going to make the greatest game ever. Usually a MMO that will kill WoW, or a 90 hour FPS with 1000 guns, quickly followed by either "How do I program game?" or a call for a huge team to bring this vision to life and get moody when nobody wants to bother.

[psy_commando]

Games, even simple ones, take alot of skill to put together. It's a running joke of sorts in game design/programing that some kid will turn up, announce to the world that he is going to make the greatest game ever. Usually a MMO that will kill WoW, or a 90 hour FPS with 1000 guns, quickly followed by either "How do I program game?" or a call for a huge team to bring this vision to life and get moody when nobody wants to bother.

You know that sometimes ironically, those mods actually do get somewhere ? Look at the nameless mod for deus ex, the guy that started the mod knew absolutly nothing about game design, and had no skills. His original concept was to be a big inside joke for the planet deus ex forum goers. That should have been an instant fail, yet its one of the best single player mod I have ever played, and it even has gameplay very close to deus ex's.

Skills aren't everything.

I mean look at minecraft, Notch is probably the worst programmer in the world, yet his game is highly popular.

[Thu'um]

ya, it id look brilliant but poor cordination sorta killed it :(

[VypersnakeX]

Well if it's dead, then that makes me kinda depressed, cause I was REALLY hoping to play it.

I mean, look at this game!

The last one is actual gameplay (What they were finishing awhile back.)

[kkstarfox]

There was also that First Person game project called Kursed about Krystal, that never came about either. So i would not hold your breath.

[psy_commando]

There was also that First Person game project called Kursed about Krystal, that never came about either. So i would not hold your breath.

Kursed is a completely different case. The guy that started the mod just gave up on it. And I heard from a few ex-members that it had major internal problems.

[Sabre]

You know that sometimes ironically, those mods actually do get somewhere ? Look at the nameless mod for deus ex, the guy that started the mod knew absolutly nothing about game design, and had no skills. His original concept was to be a big inside joke for the planet deus ex forum goers. That should have been an instant fail, yet its one of the best single player mod I have ever played, and it even has gameplay very close to deus ex's.

Skills aren't everything.

I mean look at minecraft, Notch is probably the worst programmer in the world, yet his game is highly popular.

Of course. Every mod starts somewhere, and some are huge success stories, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Take Sven Co-op, it originally started as a guy who spawned a bunch of enemies, now it's one of the most played mods of all time. But remember, it's 12 years old at this point. Further evidence can be found at moddb. I'm not sure how many SF mods have been announced, but how many were ever completed? 1. GTA Vice City mod that replaced the main characters with starfox, and that was a simple model replacement.

Again, you point at Minecraft. How many indie games never made it, or did make it but were awful? For evidence, look at Newgrounds.

Kursed is a completely different case. The guy that started the mod just gave up on it. And I heard from a few ex-members that it had major internal problems.

No, it's not a different case, it's a typical case. If you recall, I said this would happen but people called me a naysayer and said I was tearing people down. It happened, it always happens. As I said, the common problems are internal drama, over ambition or lack of skill/effort.

[DZComposer]

You guys forget I'm on the Shadows dev team. It isn't dead (I'd tell you guys if it was). Development just slowed. A lot. School, work, a couple of the guys had kids, etc. That stuff eats free time.

But, things are happening. A big development this week, but I can't talk about it.

Be reasonable with your hype, though. This is a fangame.

[psy_commando]

Of course. Every mod starts somewhere, and some are huge success stories, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Take Sven Co-op, it originally started as a guy who spawned a bunch of enemies, now it's one of the most played mods of all time. But remember, it's 12 years old at this point. Further evidence can be found at moddb. I'm not sure how many SF mods have been announced, but how many were ever completed? 1. GTA Vice City mod that replaced the main characters with starfox, and that was a simple model replacement.

Again, you point at Minecraft. How many indie games never made it, or did make it but were awful? For evidence, look at Newgrounds.

What I meant was that this :

Games, even simple ones, take alot of skill to put together. It's a running joke of sorts in game design/programing that some kid will turn up, announce to the world that he is going to make the greatest game ever. Usually a MMO that will kill WoW, or a 90 hour FPS with 1000 guns, quickly followed by either "How do I program game?" or a call for a huge team to bring this vision to life and get moody when nobody wants to bother.

Is a hasty judgement, and its not a running joke, its what happens very often with newcomers. However, even if they do make that mistake, they can, and some do turn around.

I'm not implying that every mod is a success!

No, it's not a different case, it's a typical case. If you recall, I said this would happen but people called me a naysayer and said I was tearing people down. It happened, it always happens. As I said, the common problems are internal drama, over ambition or lack of skill/effort.

I meant a different case from SoL, I was referring to the post above mine.

If you recall, I wasn't on SFO when Kursed was alive...

So basically, if I get you right, you're trying to say that betting on failure, when it comes to mods/indies is the way to go, because you're sure to be right about those that fail?

[Harmony Descent]

There was also that First Person game project called Kursed about Krystal, that never came about either. So i would not hold your breath.

Just throwing this out there: The game was entitled, "Project Kursed"

[Robert Monroe]

Thank you for the encouragemet DZ

I'll wait another 6 years if I have to if it means to play this mod.

[Sabre]

What I meant was that this :

Is a hasty judgement, and its not a running joke, its what happens very often with newcomers. However, even if they do make that mistake, they can, and some do turn around.

I'm not implying that every mod is a success!

I meant a different case from SoL, I was referring to the post above mine.

If you recall, I wasn't on SFO when Kursed was alive...

So basically, if I get you right, you're trying to say that betting on failure, when it comes to mods/indies is the way to go, because you're sure to be right about those that fail?

You're taking what I said and extending it to an extreme. It's called strawmaning.

Always betting on failure isn't what I said, rather there are specific warning signs. Same with those kids, they rarely turn around. Generally speaking, those who are willing to put in the effort do their research and understand that games a very complex. It's the layman who says "I can do this easy."

As the saying goes. "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." While it could be a shapeshifter, a space alien, whatever, chances are it's a duck, and the safe money is on assuming duck until proven otherwise.

A good rule to follow is to assume dead/crap until they show core gameplay features in action, and from that point regular updates about once every few months or so. Kursed never showed anything working in game, and SoL went silent for 2 years. Not even a token "We're still here". Any internal drama is usually a death stamp, as is posting a wall of text asking for team members when you have nothing to show.

TL:DR? Scepticism is good.

[Icy]

I think everyone but Rob ignored DZ's post.

It does seem "dead" but I doubt it really is, and I trust DZ also with what he said above. ^^

If it's ever released to the public, I'm sure people will love it. :)

[psy_commando]

I think everyone but Rob ignored DZ's post.

I got ninja'd ( Yay my first use of the term ! )

You're taking what I said and extending it to an extreme. It's called strawmaning.

Always betting on failure isn't what I said, rather there are specific warning signs. Same with those kids, they rarely turn around. Generally speaking, those who are willing to put in the effort do their research and understand that games a very complex. It's the layman who says "I can do this easy."

As the saying goes. "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." While it could be a shapeshifter, a space alien, whatever, chances are it's a duck, and the safe money is on assuming duck until proven otherwise.

A good rule to follow is to assume dead/crap until they show core gameplay features in action, and from that point regular updates about once every few months or so. Kursed never showed anything working in game, and SoL went silent for 2 years. Not even a token "We're still here". Any internal drama is usually a death stamp, as is posting a wall of text asking for team members when you have nothing to show.

TL:DR? Scepticism is good.

I didn't really extend it, you used an absolute, "always" :

No, it's not a different case, it's a typical case. If you recall, I said this would happen but people called me a naysayer and said I was tearing people down. It happened, it always happens. As I said, the common problems are internal drama, over ambition or lack of skill/effort.

But, I guess what you said makes sense.

Even though, I don't think it should keep people from being enthusiast about fan games.

[Sabre]

I disagree. I won't go on and on as to why, but I will say 2 reasons that are relivent here.

Discussion

What's the point of a forum where everyone has to agree?

Disappointment

Expecations that are not met will make a game seem worse than it is. It's better to be doubtful and be plesantly suprised as opposed to have you expecations crushed. It could also prevent constructive criticism.

[VypersnakeX]

Well at least we now know that the project is still going! =)

[Prince Elite]

No I do not, although I wonder how the sun can give a shadow, as Lylat is the Star, the Lylat System has two stars, supposedly

[Thu'um]

No I do not, although I wonder how the sun can give a shadow, as Lylat is the Star, the Lylat System has two stars, supposedly

lylat is also the system and in it corners were sun llight does not reach are the shadows of lylat

[Prince Elite]

lylat is also the system and in it corners were sun llight does not reach are the shadows of lylat

aha, a clue Sherlock

[Psygonis]

As I said there ( ), the projet has gone some major changes recently. That's why DZ said we were dormant right now.

And to avoid confusion, we'll stay low-profile until after the release of SF64-3D.

So, we're "dormant" from your point of view, but I can assure the SoL team is rather active right now! ;)

[Matrilwood]

2000?! I get the feeling this is going to go the way of Duke Nukem Forever, and I tend to be right when I predict bad things.