Calling all Assault fans.

[Robert Monroe]

Mother of god walls of text all day erryday.

Anyway. Dras, you can calm down a few notches. AJC isn't claiming superiority, you are getting buttmad over vidya debate.

Anyway, while Falco does make the most sense as the guy who saves Fox because he's the ace pilot, its as valid a connection as Krystal picking up distressed brain waves because she's a telepath. Sure, other things could have done the job, but ultimately it's a technically legitimate use of the character, if a lazy and poorly written one.

[Drasiana]

Lol @ thinking I am anything other than perplexed by AJC's scrambled line of thought. Yeah, I'm blunt. Having no qualms about being such doesn't exactly equate to "buttmad".

"Legitimate" use of her...ehhh. There's no specific reason why it has to be her. This is what I'm getting at with her entire role. Falco has to save Fox because he's most qualified for that action. If it was simply that Sauria DIDN'T send a distress signal, and that Krystal simply said she was sensing something going on on Sauria, then maybe I'd buy it. But it's a distress signal that their ship could have picked up. The Star Fox team doesn't have two ace pilots, and it doesn't have two mechanics, so why do they need two different bodies that detect these signals?

[sjrathbun812]

Anybody wanna bet this will go on for 100 pages? :P

[Xortberg]

This topic won't. However, I bet if we compiled all of Milky's anti-Krystal threads, we'd at least come hella close. He just can't let this shit go.

[Robert Monroe]

Lol @ thinking I am anything other than perplexed by AJC's scrambled line of thought. Yeah, I'm blunt. Having no qualms about being such doesn't exactly equate to "buttmad".

"Legitimate" use of her...ehhh. There's no specific reason why it has to be her. This is what I'm getting at with her entire role. Falco has to save Fox because he's most qualified for that action. If it was simply that Sauria DIDN'T send a distress signal, and that Krystal simply said she was sensing something going on on Sauria, then maybe I'd buy it. But it's a distress signal that their ship could have picked up. The Star Fox team doesn't have two ace pilots, and it doesn't have two mechanics, so why do they need two different bodies that detect these signals?

Because she's a vaguely defined typical scifi telepath/empath/whateverpath. In the context of a shallow game, that's all the specific reason needed. Toss in the fact she technically has an affinity with Sauria, and yeah. Also, she DOES say she hears "cries of agony" or somesuch after Fox says "from Tricky?!", so there's that too.

Also, there's a fine line between blunt and abrasive. You are dancing along it with a penchant for abrasive. You don't need to tell AJC to stop acting superior or anything, because he's not doing anything in the least. If it was Sabre you were acting that way to, it'd be fine, because it'd be validated, but AJC is a polite, if totally inexperienced and totally in over his head, kid. I've been there and done that on the bluntness-into-abrasiveness deal, and it only causes problems in the long run.

[Drasiana]

If AJC wants me to back off he can tell me that himself. I got the "superiority" impression by his quoting songs declaring him "the master".

She says that AFTER she mentions getting a distress signal. If it was JUST "I sense cries of agony coming from Sauria" it would have come off COMPLETELY differently and far more acceptable. Who knew that diction actually had a hand in how your dialogue comes off? The fact that she is only "vaguely defined" IS my problem, because she is the only member of the team who does not have a solid definition. Fox has an affinity for Sauria too; in fact, Krystal's implied canonical relation with planet is no more than his.

Sauria in of itself is not a progession of the plot. It was stalling it. It was a horribly uncreative piece of filler.

So what you are, indeed, saying, is "it's a sucky game so it's allowed to have sucky characters". The point in general is discussing why it's in that state and how it could be better. The point of this topic is to question if she had a strong hand in RESOLVING the plots of the games, which she certainly did not.

[Thu'um]

i am here. I would like to respond to dras but i think we are both aware niether of us will agree, so i droped it. i tire of such arguments quickly, exspecialy when it gets right down to it it doesn't mater. TO myself i will alwyas beilve krystal is a good charcter and she might not. which is perfuctly fine. Mabye if you knew the song you understand better, but it was in no way a means to declare you second class

[Psygonis]

Krystal lacks of definition and actual use because she should have taken Peppy's place in the team, replacing the elder figure by a mother figure. And since he didn't completely retired in Assault, she only took his pilot seat, so there is a character presence unbalance. She's there but can't add anything because of the redundancy with Peppy. And the only (poor) way the writers found to justify her presence is that telepath crap that wasn't smartly used, either in the plot nor gameplay...

I'd just take a bit of storyline efforts to turn her into a good character! :P

[Thu'um]

Krystal lacks of definition and actual use because she should have taken Peppy's place in the team, replacing the elder figure by a mother figure. And since he didn't completely retired in Assault, she only took his pilot seat, so there is a character presence unbalance. She's there but can't add anything because of the redundancy with Peppy. And the only (poor) way the writers found to justify her presence is that telepath crap that wasn't smartly used, either in the plot nor gameplay...

I'd just take a bit of storyline efforts to turn her into a good character!

all depends on what you want out of a good charcter

[Psygonis]

I don't know... Storyline consistency? :P

[Thu'um]

what i'm saying is that its all opinion to a great extent

[Psygonis]

Yeah, sure, and people don't expect the same things from the characters also. But facts and opinions can't be put on the same level! :D

[Thu'um]

Yeah, sure, and people don't expect the same things from the characters also. But facts and opinions can't be put on the same level!

your right, but you could have an asome charcter that follows all the major guidlines for charcters, there will always be thoase who don't like a charcater

[Psygonis]

It's not a matter of character type here, it's the storyline layout that never let her grow as a convincing character.

I don't hate Krystal, but one can't deny she's been under-used! ^^'

[Thu'um]

It's not a matter of character type here, it's the storyline layout that never let her grow as a convincing character.

I don't hate Krystal, but one can't deny she's been under-used! ^^'

POINT being no matter what there will always be people who iek a character and thoase who don't, i don't mind to much about krystal. theres room for imporvement, but sam goes for all the charcters

[Drasiana]

There is a definitive difference between a likable character and a working character. There's nothing wrong with liking Krystal, be it her design or whatever incarnation of her personality you prefer, and that in itself is a subjective matter. However, it is NOT subjective when considering the roles in the plot and the laws of cause and effect, of which she has negligible impact. The one thing she did in Assault was direct us to a planet that brought the story's momentum to a grinding halt.

It's like having an old bike. Maybe it's a bike from your childhood, and you've come to love its red paint and whimsical little handlebar tassles, but the wheel is completely busted. You might love the bike as much as anything but that doesn't mean it works. Krystal is that old bike. Maybe you keep it around, take it out of the shed once in a while to admire it, maybe throw a tea party for it if you're especially eccentric, but you sure aren't entering that thing in a BMX competition.

[Robert Monroe]

If AJC wants me to back off he can tell me that himself. I got the "superiority" impression by his quoting songs declaring him "the master".

She says that AFTER she mentions getting a distress signal. If it was JUST "I sense cries of agony coming from Sauria" it would have come off COMPLETELY differently and far more acceptable. Who knew that diction actually had a hand in how your dialogue comes off? The fact that she is only "vaguely defined" IS my problem, because she is the only member of the team who does not have a solid definition. Fox has an affinity for Sauria too; in fact, Krystal's implied canonical relation with planet is no more than his.

Sauria in of itself is not a progession of the plot. It was stalling it. It was a horribly uncreative piece of filler.

So what you are, indeed, saying, is "it's a sucky game so it's allowed to have sucky characters". The point in general is discussing why it's in that state and how it could be better. The point of this topic is to question if she had a strong hand in RESOLVING the plots of the games, which she certainly did not.

I was told by others to back off and chill down in the past. I'm returning the favor. I have the right to express my dislike of your attitude, but whatevs.

And big deal she mentions that after the signal? The exact dialogue has her mention it as an addenum; Fox asks if the signal is from Sauria, Krystal says she doesn't know, but senses cries of agony. She picks up a signal AND she senses agony. Why is that a big deal? Diction does matter, but in a game like Starfox Assault, it makes as much a difference as a single strand of hay in a stack. Krystal is vaguely defined. This is her problem. I agree. But she fits his vague role, ultimately. She does vague psychic shit, just like Falco does faux ace pilot shit, and Slippy does faux genius shit.

Furthermore, you can always bring into question HOW Sauria sent a distress signal without technology. Supposedly Tricky sent it, but how? More psychic bullshit? The Krazoa, perhaps (given they had a special link with Krystal because she can channel their power or whatever)? Yes, this goes into fanwank area, but it is something to consider.

Sauria was bad, but it's technically not filler. Filler can be removed and the story does not change. The whole story could have continued without Sauria being attacked, but it would involve rewriting the story. May have rewrotten for the better, but it still would have been rewrotten.

And Fox's equally vague affinity with Sauria is why he and Krystal are an OTP

[Drasiana]

I was told by others to back off and chill down in the past. I'm returning the favor. I have the right to express my dislike of your attitude, but whatevs.

Goes both ways, sweetheart.

And big deal she mentions that after the signal? The exact dialogue has her mention it as an addenum; Fox asks if the signal is from Sauria, Krystal says she doesn't know, but senses cries of agony. She picks up a signal AND she senses agony. Why is that a big deal? Diction does matter, but in a game like Starfox Assault, it makes as much a difference as a single strand of hay in a stack.

Funnily enough, this kind of attitude is probably why the game sucked. "Pfft, it's Star Fox, who says it needs to be good?"

By the way, Fox asks if the signal is from Tricky. Right off the bat she says it's from Sauria. And if the "cries of agony" and "distress signal" were different things, why did she conveniently only notice when Sauria was attacked, instead of like, everything else that happened in the game? And I was saying the "addendum" is actually the most important part of her dialogue if you wanted her psychic powers to look in any way useful. If she had simply said "I sense something happening on Sauria", while it would have been stupid that she didn't notice anything else, at least the issues with the distress signal would not have cropped up.

Krystal is vaguely defined. This is her problem. I agree. But she fits his vague role, ultimately. She does vague psychic shit, just like Falco does faux ace pilot shit, and Slippy does faux genius shit.

Falco and Slippy have tangible proof of their role and how they function with the rest of the team. It's reflected in their stats, their attitude, and how we see it in the gameplay. Falco's role as ace wasn't as strong in Assault as it was in 64, but at least we have something to go from with him.

Furthermore, you can always bring into question HOW Sauria sent a distress signal without technology. Supposedly Tricky sent it, but how? More psychic bullshit? The Krazoa, perhaps (given they had a special link with Krystal because she can channel their power or whatever)? Yes, this goes into fanwank area, but it is something to consider.

Sauria contacted General Pepper at the end of Adventures. It's never really explained but it HAS happened before.

Sauria was bad, but it's technically not filler. Filler can be removed and the story does not change. The whole story could have continued without Sauria being attacked, but it would involve rewriting the story. May have rewrotten for the better, but it still would have been rewrotten.

Ah, no. There was no overarching goal of the Sauria stage; the single point of the entire level is "kill dudes and save the planet". Yes, this is the goal of the other stages, but they have another goal on top that progresses the story. Sauria does not have any informational reveals, and does not drive the plot forward, but to the side. Here's what the rest of the levels provide (immenent nerdgasm):

Fortuna: Initial point is stopping Oikonny, but then the Aparoids are revealed (inciting incident)

Katina: Distress signal investigated, but it's revealed that Pigma has half of the core memory. (First act turning point)

Sargasso: Hunt for Pigma, setup Star Wolf

Fichina: Further hunt for Pigma as well as save the climate control system; it's revealed the Aparoids can control machines.

Meteo: Finally defeat Pigma and retrieve the other half of the Core Memory. (Midpoint)

Sauria: Kill aliens

Corneria: Save the capital and General Pepper, align with Star Wolf (Second act turning point)

Orbital Gate: Protect the Orbital Gate so you can get through to the Aparoid Homeworld

Aparoid Homeworld: Win the game

There are no informational reveals or driving points in Sauria. Therefore there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't have just jumped from Meteo to Corneria. You could easily make this the dialogue (replacing "while you were on Sauria" with "while you were in the asteroid belt") of the pre-Sauria cutscene instead, and have everything turn out the same. Sauria was nothing but fanservice and fluff to pad out the second act and make the levels an even 10.

[Robert Monroe]

Goes both ways, sweetheart.

Funnily enough, this kind of attitude is probably why the game sucked. "Pfft, it's Star Fox, who says it needs to be good?"

By the way, Fox asks if the signal is from Tricky. Right off the bat she says it's from Sauria. And if the "cries of agony" and "distress signal" were different things, why did she conveniently only notice when Sauria was attacked, instead of like, everything else that happened in the game? And I was saying the "addendum" is actually the most important part of her dialogue if you wanted her psychic powers to look in any way useful. If she had simply said "I sense something happening on Sauria", while it would have been stupid that she didn't notice anything else, at least the issues with the distress signal would not have cropped up.

Falco and Slippy have tangible proof of their role and how they function with the rest of the team. It's reflected in their stats, their attitude, and how we see it in the gameplay. Falco's role as ace wasn't as strong in Assault as it was in 64, but at least we have something to go from with him.

Sauria contacted General Pepper at the end of Adventures. It's never really explained but it HAS happened before.

Ah, no. There was no overarching goal of the Sauria stage; the single point of the entire level is "kill dudes and save the planet". Yes, this is the goal of the other stages, but they have another goal on top that progresses the story. Sauria does not have any informational reveals, and does not drive the plot forward, but to the side. Here's what the rest of the levels provide (immenent nerdgasm):

Fortuna: Initial point is stopping Oikonny, but then the Aparoids are revealed (inciting incident)

Katina: Distress signal investigated, but it's revealed that Pigma has half of the core memory. (First act turning point)

Sargasso: Hunt for Pigma, setup Star Wolf

Fichina: Further hunt for Pigma as well as save the climate control system; it's revealed the Aparoids can control machines.

Meteo: Finally defeat Pigma and retrieve the other half of the Core Memory. (Midpoint)

Sauria: Kill aliens

Corneria: Save the capital and General Pepper, align with Star Wolf (Second act turning point)

Orbital Gate: Protect the Orbital Gate so you can get through to the Aparoid Homeworld

Aparoid Homeworld: Win the game

There are no informational reveals or driving points in Sauria. Therefore there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't have just jumped from Meteo to Corneria. You could easily make this the dialogue (replacing "while you were on Sauria" with "while you were in the asteroid belt") of the pre-Sauria cutscene instead, and have everything turn out the same. Sauria was nothing but fanservice and fluff to pad out the second act and make the levels an even 10.

1: Fair enough.

2: You are seriously diving this deeply into the intricate workings of Star Fox dialogue? Ultimately the dialogue accomplishes what its meant to do: Krystal is psychic, or whatever. It is weak, yes. It is plot hole'd, yes. But it is still there. It is a flimsy piece of evidence that no matter how much you insist could have been done better or was superfluous, in the end, still stands as evidence.

3: Krystal's attitude is reflected as well: she picks up thought patterns on Fortuna, detects "big enemy presenses", "faint brain patterns", ect. None of this adds to the game or the plot, but it does add to the character, just like Slippy and Falco's attitudes do. Although arguably Falco's attitude has gone totally out the window in Assault, but that's a whole nother can of beans.

4: Fair enough, I had forgotten that. /shrug

5: The overarching element was a character one. Ok, yeah, it was shitty and poorly done, but its whole basic idea was to bring Fox and Krystal closer together for their crappy heroguy-femalelead romance. Poorly done? Yes. It was. Like the rest of Assault, no doubt. But still a part of the story? Yes. it is technically legit. And the game DID build up to this, as well, with pre-mission dialogue involving Fox and Krystal's vapid lame flirting. Now you can say BUT THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT COULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWHERE, and it could have, technically, but Sauria is arguably the best choice because Fox and Krystal share their vague affinity there, and they first met there, and they have friends there. Cop out? Totally. But still solid? Sadly it is.

My god I must have nothing else to do with my life if I am simultaneously defending and insulting goddamn Starfox Assault.

[Drasiana]

2: You are seriously diving this deeply into the intricate workings of Star Fox dialogue? Ultimately the dialogue accomplishes what its meant to do: Krystal is psychic, or whatever. It is weak, yes. It is plot hole'd, yes. But it is still there. It is a flimsy piece of evidence that no matter how much you insist could have been done better or was superfluous, in the end, still stands as evidence.

My original point before this weird dialogue digression was that there was no reason it had to be Krystal, rather than ROB and the Great Fox, to pick up the distress signal. If she is not the only character that can accomplish a specific plot beat, she is superfluous. My point is also if that there WAS no distress signal, but Krystal sensed the pain, that would justify her. But as it stands she and the Great Fox serve a dual purpose.

3: Krystal's attitude is reflected as well: she picks up thought patterns on Fortuna, detects "big enemy presenses", "faint brain patterns", ect. None of this adds to the game or the plot, but it does add to the character, just like Slippy and Falco's attitudes do. Although arguably Falco's attitude has gone totally out the window in Assault, but that's a whole nother can of beans.

Attitude is actually the only thing she does have alongside them, granted, though inconsistant. Why is Slippy the most constant character in the series?

5: The overarching element was a character one. Ok, yeah, it was shitty and poorly done, but its whole basic idea was to bring Fox and Krystal closer together for their crappy heroguy-femalelead romance. Poorly done? Yes. It was. Like the rest of Assault, no doubt. But still a part of the story? Yes. it is technically legit. And the game DID build up to this, as well, with pre-mission dialogue involving Fox and Krystal's vapid lame flirting. Now you can say BUT THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT COULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWHERE, and it could have, technically, but Sauria is arguably the best choice because Fox and Krystal share their vague affinity there, and they first met there, and they have friends there. Cop out? Totally. But still solid? Sadly it is.

The thing is there was absolutely no payoff to this, making it pointless. We have that singular end-of-mission beat where Tricky makes a joke about them getting together, and if they actually got together, then okay. But they don't, not during the rest of the game. Setup sans payoff makes it pointless. There was no resolution to this storyline.

My god I must have nothing else to do with my life if I am simultaneously defending and insulting goddamn Starfox Assault.

Yeah I justify my raging horrible nerdboner here in the fact that I can get away with doing this shit for a living.

[kkstarfox]

Meh, I like the idea of krystal. But it was porely executed. She promised to be something bigger and better, if you take in Adventures as a sort of side game, and assault as more mainstream. I say the idea of krystal, because any female/ love interest to fox would do. Hell, there's falco and kat that whole love hate thing, so the idea of a more straight forward love for our "hero," would have been cool. IN the end, nintendo made it kid safe and drug the plot on, so that whole dynamic ended up sucking.

[Drasiana]

In Assault I think they were too afraid to "tread on Nintendo's toes" by actually developing their relationship, but then it was silly of them to dedicate an entire stage to a B plot that was never resolved.

[Thu'um]

ROBERT IS STEALING MY JOB!

Eh romance needs to be off screen primarly, But the small moments like on sauria are fine

[Dublinthefox]

ROBERT IS STEALING MY JOB!

I've always wanted to use this:

[Robert Monroe]

My original point before this weird dialogue digression was that there was no reason it had to be Krystal, rather than ROB and the Great Fox, to pick up the distress signal. If she is not the only character that can accomplish a specific plot beat, she is superfluous. My point is also if that there WAS no distress signal, but Krystal sensed the pain, that would justify her. But as it stands she and the Great Fox serve a dual purpose.

Attitude is actually the only thing she does have alongside them, granted, though inconsistant. Why is Slippy the most constant character in the series?

The thing is there was absolutely no payoff to this, making it pointless. We have that singular end-of-mission beat where Tricky makes a joke about them getting together, and if they actually got together, then okay. But they don't, not during the rest of the game. Setup sans payoff makes it pointless. There was no resolution to this storyline.

Yeah I justify my raging horrible nerdboner here in the fact that I can get away with doing this shit for a living.

1: There is no reason you can not say though the Great Fox can not fullfill everyone else's role, though. The GF has scanners, it could scan enemy boss meters. It can fire extremely potent lasers with pretty damn good accuracy, given what it does in Area 6, so it makes Falco superfluous for shooting things (except of course Sector Z). Krystal sensed the signal AND pain. This ultimately justifies her, however weakly. The writing very easily could've went with ROB saying SAURIAN DISTRESS SIGNAL DETECTED then Fox asking Krystal if she senses anything followed by her having a trademarkt scifi psychic headache of empathy. But whatevs.

2: because he's a gag character.

3: It wasn't the plot of Assault is why. The apparent idea was the romance would be an overarching theme that spans the entire series, as evidenced in Command where the player can make or break Fox and Krystal's relationship. This is not uncommon from any serial storytelling series.

4: wat.