Like and Dislike about SF: Adventures

[Ravior_Stygian]

"Spirits" exist in this universe. Jame's appearance proves this, so Andross doing what he did shouldn't seem very far fetched. Besides he probably had learned and achieved super natural abilities from all the experiments he did on his body, which ALSO exist in this universe, as Krystal is proof of this.

[Drasiana]

Good points for the most part Dras, but a couple of those plotholes ain't worth twisting ones mind over.

They're still plotholes, that Ravior claimed did not exist.

As for Drakor and Galdon? They are pretty generic bosses like in most Nintendo games. Few of which are ever explained. Seem to remember though that Drakor was at least mentioned before you saw him though, so at least he's got a slight reputation preceding him.

"Hey, there's an evil robot dragon hanging around here" doesn't exactly offer an explanation for wtf he is. Apparently he did have more of a role/explanation, but it was actually taken out of the game. And just because other games do it, doesn't make it okay. Mario gets away with random shit happening because random shit is the basis of all Mario games. Star Fox doesn't work the same way. Yes, we got giant clams appearing in Star Fox 64, but it was explained as "Andross' bio-weapon". Andross is a mad scientist that is in charge of the army of futuristic bad guys. This makes sense. The general of a primative dinosaur race on a primative dinosaur planet creating a cyborg dragon-man, however, doesn't make sense.

Now, Andross:

And on the whole subject of Andross. Well, they did try explaining it

Keyword: "Try". It didn't work.

"It seems that Andross discovered the ancient power of the Krazoa. And by trapping Krystal, who had the ability to channel this power, he was able to revieve himself."

-When did Andross discover this? Before or after he exploded?

-Why does Krystal have the ability to channel the Krazoa when she isn't even from Sauria?

-How did Andross know she had that power?

-How does a ghost push someone into a magic crystal cage? Where the hell did the magic crystal-cage come from?

-Again, how did Krystal recognize Andross?

-What exactly is the "ancient power of the Krazoa"?

Not much. But at least there excists an attempt at an explanation. Never saw any clue to why Andross is a floating head/brain in SF64 either, among many other strange plotholes, but it's still only the newer games which get whipped for their inconsistency.

"Andross is a mad scientist". Yeah, why he decided to turn himself into a gigantic head is probably up for debate, but at least you can explain it away as "lol science". You could try to explain this away with "lol magic", except it effects more of the story. Yes, Andross is a giant brain, but that really only effects the final boss battle. The story doesn't hinge on him being a giant head. He could have been flying a ship, or you could have just got out of your Arwing and punched that bitch in the face. The rest of the game would have been the same.

Adventures, however, requires Andross' ghost to concoct an elaborate plan to kidnap an alien girl who may or may not have magic powers and control an evil dinosaur intent on randomly blowing up his own planet in order to funnel the energy of some mystical ghosts to bring himself back to life in order to become a giant head again only this time fused to a statue and ??? PROFIT

"Spirits" exist in this universe. Jame's appearance proves this, so Andross doing what he did shouldn't seem very far fetched. Besides he probably had learned and achieved super natural abilities from all the experiments he did on his body, which ALSO exist in this universe, as Krystal is proof of this.

James couldn't really do anything. He appeared, and led Fox out of a base, but he at least obeyed "ghost laws" in that he couldn't touch anything and when he cropped up in Command no one else could see him. Whether or not James was even there to begin with is debatable; Fox could have hallucinated it, it could have been his own "instincts" that he was trusting.

However, Andross' ghost physically interacts with characters and the environment. He has just as much control when he's dead as he does when he's alive, which is pretty much cheating. "Probably" isn't an explanation as to how he got like this, because it isn't actually said in the game ergo it is just speculation and the canon explanation is DUNNO LOL. Keep in mind that Andross was not originally intended as a main part of the game and was only supposed to be an unlockable fight. The fact that he was shoehorned in as THE REAL VILLAIN last-minute is painfully obvious in how badly he's incorporated.

Krystal is proof of this? She didn't actually have psychic powers in Adventures. That was an invention of Assault. It was never said Krystal had any sort of mystical powers...she only had her staff, which was a plothole in itself. The only thing even slightly indicative of her having "powers" was when she explains to Fox how to use the staff, but I always thought that was supposed to be a hologram or something science-y instead of random telepathy. But of course, I always "thought" that because they never explain otherwise.

Your headcanon =/= actual game canon

[Asper Sarnoff]

"Hey, there's an evil robot dragon hanging around here" doesn't exactly offer an explanation for wtf he is. Apparently he did have more of a role/explanation, but it was actually taken out of the game. And just because other games do it, doesn't make it okay. Mario gets away with random shit happening because random shit is the basis of all Mario games. Star Fox doesn't work the same way. Yes, we got giant clams appearing in Star Fox 64, but it was explained as "Andross' bio-weapon". Andross is a mad scientist that is in charge of the army of futuristic bad guys. This makes sense. The general of a primative dinosaur race on a primative dinosaur planet creating a cyborg dragon-man, however, doesn't make sense.

No obvious explanation within the game presents itself, that's true. I don't like making up my own fanon, especially not when the evidence to support it is the abscence of evidence against it, but when you mentioned the bio-weapons of Andross, that got me thinking a bit. Maybe Drakor is a bio-weapon? One that was deployed to Sauria, and never saw combat during the Lylat wars. Whether or not it actually served anyone after Andross defeat many years earlier, or roamed Dragon Rock like a wild animal doesn't make much of a difference.

Just a theory. Maybe not likely, but perhaps plausible?

You also mentioned Galdon in an earlier post. That one shouldn't need much of an explanation however. Possibly an apex predator of the frankly extraordinary Sauria ecosystem.

I see you drawing a parallell to the Mario franchise there, but I think it's better to use Zelda, or possibly Metroid as examples. Neither of which are known as based in random shit, or their deep explanation of its bosses, with some few, obvious exceptions that is.

-When did Andross discover this? Before or after he exploded?

Before seems like the more obvious choice. I bet even Andross would find his sharp reasoning and massive brain severly hampered by an evaporating explosion.

-Why does Krystal have the ability to channel the Krazoa when she isn't even from Sauria?

Making sense of Krystal, and particulary her past is de facto impossible. That I'll leave to fanfic writers and dreamers. Which is why I saw no reason to claim that plothole could be explained.

-How did Andross know she had that power?

Yeah, the previously mentioned explosion and his death would make it kind of difficult to figure that out. I'll work out from the basis that he made the preparations for his resurrection before his demise. Given his intellect and the unlimited resources at his command in his glory days, if anyone could have discovered how one could use the Krazoa of the backwater planet Sauria to resurrect someone back to life, it would have been him.

It might be he selected the then infantile Krystal as a suitable candidate, given her ability to channel Krazoa, but that seems like taking quite the risk, given there was always the chance she would not be alive or present where and when needed. If one work from the ground that every Cerenian could do the same job, and Krystal just got unlucky, then that makes more sense.

-How does a ghost push someone into a magic crystal cage?

I don't think that really was Andross. My theory is that it was Scales. The IR-like view points to Andross, as he was also seeing with the same vision as he revealed himself to Fox and Scales. However, I think it was Scales who did it. Many snakes see in IR, and there have been theories that some dinosaurs did as well. In addition, the loud snorting and grunts one can hear as he's "sneaking" up on her sounds more like those a 7-foot anthro T-rex would make than the dead spirit of a gorilla scientist. It would also explain the: "It's you!" comment from Krystal before she was pushed into the beam too.

Where the hell did the magic crystal-cage come from?

Your guess is as good as mine. Might be an ancient contraption of the Krazoa, might be something Andross planted there for this very purpose over 8 years earlier. Who knows?

-Again, how did Krystal recognize Andross?

See a couple paragraphs above.

-What exactly is the "ancient power of the Krazoa"?

Iz magic. Seriouly? No freaking clue. There's countless possible explanations, but no evidence for any of them, save for the lack of evidence against them.

Adventures, however, requires Andross' ghost to concoct an elaborate plan to kidnap an alien girl who may or may not have magic powers and control an evil dinosaur intent on randomly blowing up his own planet in order to funnel the energy of some mystical ghosts to bring himself back to life in order to become a giant head again only this time fused to a statue and ??? PROFIT

Hehe. I like the way you summarised the plot, and I'm probably giving the scriptwriters of Adventures too much credit with my theories.

Possibly the biggest difference in our beliefs is that I believe Andross made practically all the preparations for what would occur in Adventures while he was still very much alive on Venom, as a plan B in case things would go down the drain. Looking for ways to cheat death, he discovered trough old legends that the so-called Krazoa of the planet Sauria could give him a way just to do that. But the ability to harness that power, especially given the fact he would be dead, would be out of his reach. So he hatched an elaborate scheeme to capture a speciment of a race which could. Planting time-set bombs on Cerenia that would scatter any survivors across the galaxy would make sure at least someone made their way to Sauria, where the bribed General Scales would carry out his paymasters instructions to the letter, making sure the specimen was forced into the device that would extract the life-force necesary for the resurrection.

It's been a pleassure debating with you Dras, but you've keept me up for far longer than I should be staying up. Good night, look foreward to your reply!

[Ravior_Stygian]

Hm, you're making pretty good points.

Of course there something we can all agree on: It was fun fighting Andross again, gameplay-wise at least.

EDIT: Now I feel like I'm getting in the way of a nice debate. Sorry about that.

[Drasiana]

Your theories are all workable, Asper. The problem is, is that they're still theories. The fact that they could theoretically work makes it all the more frustrating that the game itself never bothered to fill in these gaps. There are countless explanations to tool around with in fanfic form but really, we're flying blind based on what the game actually gave us. We could say that the person who pushed Krystal in at the beginning was Andross, or we could say it was scales. But we actually don't have any confirmation on either.

Even with Zelda and Metroid, the universe presented allows us to accept random things when they're thrown at us. "And then a giant monster attacked" isn't so outlandish in Zelda, a land based in magic where these things are commonplace. Same goes for Metroid, where the basis is exploring hostile, bizarre alien worlds. Star Fox never even touched on magic before now, and when it tried to incorporate it did very little to try and explain its place in the pre-existing universe. It would be like flying saucers suddenly appearing in The Lion King and the only explanation you get is "JUST BECAUSE!"

Also, just another thing relating to Galdon and Drakor: How did they get the Spellstones? Especially Galdon, being that he was completely frozen, yet the Spellstone was in his hand. Or the RedEye king, who had the Spellstone fused to his head. Scales steals the Spellstones and then finds elaborate ways to give them to giant, dangerous reptiles? What?!

[Ravior_Stygian]

You know the Wesker Report? I think Andross needs one of those, where Andross pretty much explains what he was up to.

Of course he "died" in Adventures, but if Nintendo wanted him back they would put him back.

[Asper Sarnoff]

Your theories are all workable, Asper. The problem is, is that they're still theories. The fact that they could theoretically work makes it all the more frustrating that the game itself never bothered to fill in these gaps. There are countless explanations to tool around with in fanfic form but really, we're flying blind based on what the game actually gave us. We could say that the person who pushed Krystal in at the beginning was Andross, or we could say it was scales. But we actually don't have any confirmation on either.

Even with Zelda and Metroid, the universe presented allows us to accept random things when they're thrown at us. "And then a giant monster attacked" isn't so outlandish in Zelda, a land based in magic where these things are commonplace. Same goes for Metroid, where the basis is exploring hostile, bizarre alien worlds. Star Fox never even touched on magic before now, and when it tried to incorporate it did very little to try and explain its place in the pre-existing universe. It would be like flying saucers suddenly appearing in The Lion King and the only explanation you get is "JUST BECAUSE!"

Also, just another thing relating to Galdon and Drakor: How did they get the Spellstones? Especially Galdon, being that he was completely frozen, yet the Spellstone was in his hand. Or the RedEye king, who had the Spellstone fused to his head. Scales steals the Spellstones and then finds elaborate ways to give them to giant, dangerous reptiles? What?!

Yeah, it's indeed pretty annoying that we got so little to work with from the developers themself. The Starfox franchise is a treasure-chest for fanfic-writers, and quagmire of frustration for the debating fans.

Spellstones eh? Your guess is as good as mine. I just know I wouldn't want to be the Sharpclaw that had to walk up to King Redeye, Spellstone in one hand, chissel and hammer in the other, saying: "This is going to hurt, just a tiny wee bit!".

[Drasiana]

I guess it's a treasure trove for ficwriters in one sense, but I really don't think we should rely on fanfic to explain vital plot points in the games. It should be just building upon the theoretically-strong structure the story already gave us.

Also...lol XD

[myu]

I'll try not to repeat too much of what's already been said, though I'm running on some coffee and 3 hours of sleep.

For the most part - that is to say, when I don't think about it - I liked Adventures. I liked that it wasn't short like games tend to be these days, and that it wasn't OMG ACTION every few seconds to keep one interested.

That being said, there's a lot that I didn't like, most of which has already been said several times over in this thread. The fact that it had a Zelda structure (mostly referring to Ocarin of Time here) bothered me. Star Fox isn't Zelda and they should have tried to veer away from find the spiritual stones - oh, I mean spellstones, find the sage medallions - oh, I mean krazoa spirits, etc. There are other ways to do the "Hero's Journey."

Another aspect was the general combat. You just lock on and press A (I think, it's been a long time since I last played it.) Did anyone actually have a strategy other than that when fighting? The fighting in Zelda was more complex and actually required effort sometimes. Finally, the arwing portions of the game were HUGELY disappointing. It's the one aspect that relates back to the other games and they just let it fall flat, aside from the ending anyway. Also having a store was dumb. I would have much preferred having to seek out that shit on my own or doing a quest or something less dumb.

Lastly, I just want to say to whoever it was that said Adventures was needed so we could transition "smoothly" to Assault - Assault could have easily still happened without Adventures. The only big difference would be that Krystal wasn't in it, honestly.

[Harmony Descent]

Sorry to randomly pop in and have this sidetracked again, but Asper, you have a blank quote in post #53. Just letting you know.

[Asper Sarnoff]

Sorry to randomly pop in and have this sidetracked again, but Asper, you have a blank quote in post #53. Just letting you know.

Figures. It was pretty late when I wrote that. Fixing it.

[GameMasterGuy]

Main game was fine for the most part, more side areas and either higher shop prices or more shop items would have been nice though.

[Millionbartek]

It's just a game people, of course it has plotholes. Even starfox 64 has plotholes. Like how did Andross become a living brain? How did he gather a huge army? How does Pepper know the Star fox team? Games are made for fun, it's not real life stuff usually.

[Gestalt]

It's just a game people, of course it has plotholes. Even starfox 64 has plotholes. Like how did Andross become a living brain? How did he gather a huge army? How does Pepper know the Star fox team? Games are made for fun, it's not real life stuff usually.

And the best dredge of the year goes to~, drum-role please, *pause for dramatic effect* Millionbartek of Belgium, Huzzah!

While i'm here might as well stay on topic: Adventures had a great story, but little to none of the starfox gamplay on-rail shooter gameplay i think the fans were pulling for. At the end of SF64 Fox was quick to say how independent his operations were and that the team did not like orders. However, in Adventures Fox is at Pepper's mercy. I know his team needed the money...but Fox didn't have to act like such a door mat for the lazy ass Cornerian Army to walk all over.

[Millionbartek]

And the best dredge of the year goes to~, drum-role please, *pause for dramatic effect* Millionbartek of Belgium, Huzzah!

While i'm here might as well stay on topic: Adventures had a great story, but little to none of the starfox gamplay on-rail shooter gameplay i think the fans were pulling for. At the end of SF64 Fox was quick to say how independent his operations were and that the team did not like orders. However, in Adventures Fox is at Pepper's mercy. I know his team needed the money...but Fox didn't have to act like such a door mat for the lazy ass Cornerian Army to walk all over.

Dredge?

[The Shaper]

Dredge?

It's when you post in a reaaalllly old topic that people stopped caring about.

[Millionbartek]

It's when you post in a reaaalllly old topic that people stopped caring about.

Ah thanks for telling, sorry about that.

[xWrath68x]

The melee combat

Mostly land

Introducing Krystal

The ending (lol..)

Tricky,

The graphics

Voice acting.

What I didn't like:

Plot holes

The puzzles could get annoying.

Not being able to fight General Scales.

How short the arwing battles were.

Overall I loved the game

[Millionbartek]

The melee combat

Mostly land

Introducing Krystal

The ending (lol..)

Tricky,

The graphics

Voice acting.

What I didn't like:

Plot holes

The puzzles could get annoying.

Not being able to fight General Scales.

How short the arwing battles were.

Overall I loved the game

To be honest, I also didn't like the arwing segments. They sucked, Assault did way better. I agree with your points and I would like to fight the general at the end too.