Bullfighting

[ZM Anonymous]

not at all, this is the counter point

The topic is whether Bullfighting can be justified. not whether or not Animals are better than Humans, even though by technicality, humans are animals, which makes arguing about it kinda unnecessary

[Drasiana]

lolololol i am saying animals are just a worse as humans. not that humans are better.

You keep misusing the word "worse". If you mean to say they're as BAD, yes, but no one in this topic has argued that.

Yes factory farming is worse, But then why don't we stop eating thanksgiving turkies? or MacDonalds burgers? Yet we rant about how cruel these people are to animals. Truth is we are just the same. So i don't wanna here Oh spainerds are so cruel doing this but then turing around and eating your burger that was no doubt made from an abuessed cow.

I like how you assume I eat at McDonald's, and don't buy free range turkey, or that these are even options. You're lumping a couple individuals together and assuming they speak for the entire country. Nobody here has insulted Spaniards, they have merely expressed a distaste for the act of bullfighting itself. No one has said America is better because they lack bullfights, nor has anyone said McDonald's is the food of saints.

Stop spazzing out. Do you even know what you're arguing about anymore?

Again, it's possible that both things are bad. What a freaking concept. If your next response requires me to use the word "again" again, I won't even bother.

Dras, Ajc. I think this is getting a little out of topic...

Not particularly. It's still related to bullfighting, just drawing examples from other practices.

[Thu'um]

When did I ever say I was better than anyone else because I think that? And guess what, that the ends justify the means is nothing more than your opinion. You think a bull slowly succumbing to death for the amusement of the masses is equal to a good strike in the head from a sledgehammer for the sake of ending it quickly so it can be butchered into different cuts of meat, which, while not a pretty sight, is less drawn out and painful than being skewered multiple times before being impaled through the heart, which is still not instantly fatal, btw.

That's your opinion, and opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one, and most of them stink.

They may not be logical to you, but animals do them for a reason. Animals are not malicious and do not derive enjoyment out of the needless life-ending of another. Not usually, anyway, and they don't do it out of malice, but simply because they don't full understand the entirety of what they do. They will fight over territory, but they need that territory to live. They will fight over a mate, but they need a mate so that their genes can be passed on to the next generation. Plus a lot of animal "fights" are not actually violent. Ever seen two male rattlesnakes fight? No blood is drawn amongst them. They stand up as tall as they can, and attempt to knock the other one over, because the one with the more strength and endurance will triumph, and reasonably the stronger one will breed stronger babies, who if they survive to adulthood and defeat other males for the ability to mate with the female, will logically have better genes and breed better children themselves. This goes on and on with the weak ones with bad genes either dying due to the inability to survive, or because they can not get the chance to mate, and thus the weaker genes cease to be, and only stronger genes pass on.

And just because poultry and other things are bred for the sake of consumption does not mean they are mistreated. Not saying it doesn't happen, don't get me wrong, but being bred for food =/= mistreatment.

Also, thank you much, Xort.

Oh, and Harlow, I actually don't eat an animal if I know it's been treated cruelly. I refuse to eat veal because it's basically baby cows tied down in cramped cages to keep them from moving and thus toughening the meat. I won't eat the "death puffer," mainly because I hate sushi and the thing is severely dangerous if prepared wrong, but even if I lived off sushi and the thing wasn't dangerous in the least, I wouldn't eat it because they are prepared into sushi while still alive. They skin it, disembowel it, and slice it into this strips of meat while the thing is still amongst the living.

Still not saying I'm better than anyone, that's just how I am.

Alright, but animals still act unrashionaly. Feeding Frenzies, and canoblisem has been witnessed in nature. Not to mention animals eating their own young. Animals are no better then we are. Infact we are animals.

As i said almost ALL meat we consum now is produced by factory farms, the animals there are confined in small spaces to maximize production. The are often nudered with out pain meds, debeaked, cliped, and often fed another species dung as a filler to reduce cost for food. Infact calfs are sperated formt he mothers at birth and are fed a mixture of cow blood and horomones to help the grow up qucikly so that the time spent in their youth is minamal. These Horomones are ILLIEGAL in Canada and the EU

@ dras, i don't assume you eat at MacDonalds, neither do i but inless you eat faimly raised organic meat, its likely most of the meat you consume is factory farmed, even if you don't eat fast food.

Your right, no one has insulted the spainyards, but its funny how they complain how animal cruelty sucks and spainyards should stop and yet they them selves likly eat facotry farmed meat which is actualy entirely more cruel then bull fighting.

i certianly am not spazzing. Remember you can only guess what emotions i have while writting this on the internet. therefor its is a little offending when you think i am spazzing when really just trying to have a decent debate.

[ZM Anonymous]

Milky was right

ITT: Eating IS BARBARIC

[Vy'drach]

I actually doubt the majority of that. Take KFC in for example. I've heard everything from they boil chickens alive to them not even having chickens period, but some genetically-altered beakless, featherless, chicken mutant.

And of course animals act irrationally. It's called instincts. Person walks through the woods and comes upon a mother bear and her babies, person is going to get mauled because the mother bear is going to assume the person can be a risk to her young. Bear won't sit there and think, "Hmmm, something this small likely won't attempt to hurt my young, especially with me there." Yes, cannibalism exists in the animal world. Food is food. Only people make it taboo. Yes, animals will eat their own young on occasion, this happens with great white sharks. Few reasons for this. Mothers don't get attached to their children, and if they are stupid enough to swim into a large fish, such as their mother, they get eaten, because they lacked the survival instincts needed to survive, and also, most animals value their lives over their young's because a mother can have several breeding seasons, and young rarely make it to adulthood as it is, much less if the mother dies for the sake of the child. Only time you really see a child valued over the mother is in higher primates, including humans.

Point is, animals don't do it for the sake of doing it, but because them doing it has a direct impact on their survival.

[Thu'um]

I actually doubt the majority of that. Take KFC in for example. I've heard everything from they boil chickens alive to them not even having chickens period, but some genetically-altered beakless, featherless, chicken mutant.

And of course animals act irrationally. It's called instincts. Person walks through the woods and comes upon a mother bear and her babies, person is going to get mauled because the mother bear is going to assume the person can be a risk to her young. Bear won't sit there and think, "Hmmm, something this small likely won't attempt to hurt my young, especially with me there." Yes, cannibalism exists in the animal world. Food is food. Only people make it taboo. Yes, animals will eat their own young on occasion, this happens with great white sharks. Few reasons for this. Mothers don't get attached to their children, and if they are stupid enough to swim into a large fish, such as their mother, they get eaten, because they lacked the survival instincts needed to survive, and also, most animals value their lives over their young's because a mother can have several breeding seasons, and young rarely make it to adulthood as it is, much less if the mother dies for the sake of the child. Only time you really see a child valued over the mother is in higher primates, including humans.

Doubt it if you want

Point is Animals and humans aren't any less the cruel then the other.

[Vy'drach]

I disagree with you.

Being cruel is derived from needlessly doing something that inflicts some sort of negative response, usually pain, while understanding what you are doing.

Animals do not do it needlessly, or do not understand the full range of what they are doing. People, on the other hand, do. Bullfighting is deriving enjoyment from the needless pain and suffering of the bull.

An animal eating another animal for nourishment, or an animal killing another because it was a danger to its young, or an animal killing the young of another animal so there is less competition for food for its young, is not cruelty. It's survival. They do it not for the sake of harming the other animal, but because by doing it, they are making it more likely that they and/or their young, will survive.

Therein lies the difference.

[Milkyway64]

Milky was right

ITT: Eating IS BARBARIC

Yup.

I haven't been following this topic too much so I can't really add much, but death is kinda one of those things that keeps crap going. Animals kill for food, territory, and protection, humans kill because we sometimes get so buttmad that heads must roll. In bullfighting's case, it's just a stupid tradition that should really just die. Go watch pro wrestling instead, at least then you get to see a soap opera amidst your senseless violence, and who doesn't like drama?

[Xortberg]

Your right, no one has insulted the spainyards, but its funny how they complain how animal cruelty sucks and spainyards should stop and yet they them selves likly eat facotry farmed meat which is actualy entirely more cruel then bull fighting.

Without 'factory farmed' meat, feeding the 300 million Americans we have would be significantly more difficult, not to mention the 6 billion on the planet. While it may be cruel to some degree, it serves a vital purpose in maintaining the society we've developed. It's not a good comparison to bull fighting, because that serves no purpose at all. I thought this had already been established multiple times.

i certianly am not spazzing. Remember you can only guess what emotions i have while writting this on the internet. therefor its is a little offending when you think i am spazzing when really just trying to have a decent debate.

Yes, we can only guess. That means you have to try extra hard to make sure your emotions come through clearly. Being able to read what you type would help that quite a bit.

["User"]

I will never eat meat again! D:

The topic is whether Bullfighting can be justified. not whether or not Animals are better than Humans, even though by technicality, humans are animals, which makes arguing about it kinda unnecessary

Subject matter is still related, even not directly. Personally I'm liking the indirect conversation relating to moral relativism. Also, could people at the VERY LEAST proofread their posts and/or use a spell/grammar checker? There are some things that I can't even understand.

Anyways, carry on. :-)

[Thu'um]

Without 'factory farmed' meat, feeding the 300 million Americans we have would be significantly more difficult, not to mention the 600 billion on the planet. While it may be cruel to some degree, it serves a vital purpose in maintaining the society we've developed. It's not a good comparison to bull fighting, because that serves no purpose at all. I thought this had already been established multiple times.

Yes, we can only guess. That means you have to try extra hard to make sure your emotions come through clearly. Being able to read what you type would help that quite a bit.

well actualy the earth only has a population of 6 billion not 600 billion. then Factory may be nesscary as of now, but in the long run it is doing far more harm. If you look at how we Americans eat its very inefficient. It takes Ten pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef. so if we cut back on the amount of meat we as Americans eat by half, we potentially could have more then enough food to go around.

[myu]

Alright, but animals still act unrashionaly. Feeding Frenzies, and canoblisem has been witnessed in nature. Not to mention animals eating their own young. Animals are no better then we are. Infact we are animals.

Where are you getting this from? I think you're looking at the way animals behave/how they live subjectively. None of the things you mentioned that some animals do are irrational. Crazy feeding frenzies tend to happen when food has been scarce and everyone is starving. An animal can't just walk into a supermarket when there's nothing in its refrigerator. Cannibalism for animals is not the same as cannibalism for humans - at least I'm relatively sure it isn't. Food is food, and if it happens to be the same species, oh well. Also, there are a lot of reasons that an animal eats its offspring, but it isn't irrational. I've done a bit of research on that, but I've gone on long enough on something this thread isn't even about.

[Harlow]

I'm sorry Vydrach. I'ts just that I've seen that opinion so many times by people who weren't as logical as you

[ZM Anonymous]

We went from bullfighting to behavioral patterns of animals and humans to mutated chickens. Is it too early to call "derailed?"

[Xortberg]

well actualy the earth only has a population of 6 billion not 600 billion.

Typo Fixed now, thanks. You got the point at least.

then Factory may be nesscary as of now, but in the long run it is doing far more harm. If you look at how we Americans eat its very inefficient. It takes Ten pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef.

Not saying we eat inefficiently, I'm saying that producing our meat the way we do serves a purpose beyond "LOOK! HE STABBED THE BULL!" It's not an equal comparison. And anyway, as Dras has already said multiple times, yes it's bad that doesn't make bullfighting good. Nor does it make our arguments against bullfighting invalid.

[Vy'drach]

I'm sorry Vydrach. I'ts just that I've seen that opinion so many times by people who weren't as logical as you

Logical? Me? Bwehehehe. I don't really agree with you, but thank you for the sentiment.

[Drasiana]

Alright, but animals still act unrashionaly. Feeding Frenzies, and canoblisem has been witnessed in nature. Not to mention animals eating their own young. Animals are no better then we are. Infact we are animals.

Feeding frenzies occur when there is no food.

Take the piranha, for example, living in the Amazon. In the dry season, areas of their habitat evaporate. They become effectively trapped in a tiny, claustrophobic pool, with no food, and no way out. They starve. They begin to eat anything that comes their way...sometimes, that is each other, and it's purely a survival instinct. There is no Hannibal Lecter-esque scheming or fascination here, it's a dumb fish whose regular life revolve around swimming and eating, and it's become really, really hungry. The fish doesn't derive any pleasure from its killing aside from "I'm not hungry anymore, yay!". The fish does not ask you if the lambs are still screaming.

"But Dras! You're using a fictional character as an example!"

Yeah, true, but both Lecter and the villain Buffalo Bill are based on real people who did really depraved things, and it wasn't because they happened to be stuck in a puddle and starving to death.

As i said almost ALL meat we consum now is produced by factory farms, the animals there are confined in small spaces to maximize production. The are often nudered with out pain meds, debeaked, cliped, and often fed another species dung as a filler to reduce cost for food. Infact calfs are sperated formt he mothers at birth and are fed a mixture of cow blood and horomones to help the grow up qucikly so that the time spent in their youth is minamal.

That's nice. No, really, it sucks. But again (that damn word you keep making me use, bro). NOTHING to do with bullfighting. The fact that this exists does not justify bullfighting. It's like you're saying "who cares about illegal sex slavery when rapists exist?!"

These Horomones are ILLIEGAL in Canada and the EU

@ dras, i don't assume you eat at MacDonalds, neither do i but inless you eat faimly raised organic meat, its likely most of the meat you consume is factory farmed, even if you don't eat fast food.

First off; I live in Canada.

Secondly, how do you think I tell meat is organic? My psychic powers? No, I read the label. You are making assumptions about what I eat, even if it isn't specifically pertaining to McDonald's. Seriously, did you just watch one PETA documentary about factory meat and feel the need to crusade all over SFO about it?

Your right, no one has insulted the spainyards, but its funny how they complain how animal cruelty sucks and spainyards should stop and yet they them selves likly eat facotry farmed meat which is actualy entirely more cruel then bull fighting.

Stop spelling words like "Spaniard" wrong when you're quoting the proper spelling. Dude, I'm going to be blunt. It makes you look like a moron. And stop telling people they're hypocrites, your attitude is exactly why animal rights activists and vegitarians have such a horrible reputation. Again with the "how can you be caring about rape when GANG-RAPE exists?!" thing you seem to be doing.

i certianly am not spazzing. Remember you can only guess what emotions i have while writting this on the internet. therefor its is a little offending when you think i am spazzing when really just trying to have a decent debate.

You've put enough words into people's mouths in this topic for us to make a fair assumption about yours.

Go watch pro wrestling instead, at least then you get to see a soap opera amidst your senseless violence, and who doesn't like drama?

I lol'd. Extra points if one of the wrestlers is bull-themed.

i would also like to know how the hell Dras is carrying on a conversation with someone who apparently doesn't speak English

My cereal-box decoder ring.

[Vy'drach]

[kkstarfox]

they've developed them to have larger breasts so that there's more meat to be had

~ Win quote of the day for me :P

[Faisul]

First, my opinion on the topic. I am categorically against the slaying of an animal for reasons other than consumption. This goes for all sorts of blood sports involving animals. Claiming adherence to cultural traditions as an excuse for arranging these blood sports is not, in my opinion, enough to validate the drawn out suffering of the bull, especially when it is mainly for the enjoyment of the crowd. I don't feel particularly culturally insensitive/discriminatory when I say that the art of bullfighting is savage and unenlightened.

At least in other countries, formalized tribal warfare/trials of manhood/gladiatorial combat has developed into heavily regulated, largely bloodless affairs. Torture of a living creature, human or animal, for another's amusement, is medieval. When some Spaniards get buttfrustrated because a large part of Europe thinks the above, it's probably because they perceive the criticism as an attack on Spanish culture as a whole, and that they do not correlate the slow, agonizing death of a bull in the corrida as animal cruelty, because 'tradition' or 'it's an art form' somehow excuses being delighted by bloodshed.

["User"]

I'm locking this topic for the time being. Rest assured, this situation will be reviewed thoroughly and this thread will more than likely be purged. Don't be surprised if the forum gets new rules regarding netiquette as well.

If you'd like you can start up a new netiquette topic or a discussion about possible new rules we could implement that would reduce conflict like this from occurring. :-)

[Asper Sarnoff]

Topic purged. Posts related to the sparkwar have been removed or edited. We'll continue to look into the how the issues spawned in the first place. In the meantime, it's back to bulls.

Maybe it's the same for bulls used in these fights (the fact that they're bred for it, not that they would died anyway).

Yeah, they are very much breed specifically for this. Lots of Lamborghinis over the years have been named after famous fighting bull breeders, such as the Miura.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that it's forbidden for the breeders and anyone else to approach the fighting bull on foot as its being grown, because that might allow it to learn how to approach and attack a human on foot, such as the Matador.

[Vy'drach]

That's even worse. They just keep trying to one-side it for the Matador.

Honestly now.

[Thu'um]

Well i honestly am a big fan of culture and traditions, But i am also against animal cruelty. So? I think this really just needs to be limited to maybe 60 cattle a year. Around holidays or festivities would be a good time for annual bull fights. I am not sure to what extent they had bull fights before but if they were killing over 300 cattle a year for entertainment, there is a problem .

[Asper Sarnoff]

Well i honestly am a big fan of culture and traditions, But i am also against animal cruelty. So? I think this really just needs to be limited to maybe 60 cattle a year. Around holidays or festivities would be a good time for annual bull fights. I am not sure to what extent they had bull fights before but if they were killing over 300 cattle a year for entertainment, there is a problem .

I disagree. It'd be a bit like if the allies under WW2 telling Hitler that he could only exterminate 10.000 jews a year, and only on holidays. It's still not right by any means. Culture and tradition is all good, but it should never be allowed to interfere with human and animal rights.