Vy'drach Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I was just pointing out that bloodletting wasn't the issue I had with bullfighting, but that the bull can not give consent to it, and was further saying no matter how I feel about something, I find no real wrong with it as long as the parties involved offer the honest consent to it. Was only offering it as a point that kind of got latched onto. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thu'um Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I was just pointing out that bloodletting wasn't the issue I had with bullfighting, but that the bull can not give consent to it, and was further saying no matter how I feel about something, I find no real wrong with it as long as the parties involved offer the honest consent to it. Was only offering it as a point that kind of got latched onto. agreed, in fact i rather enjoy so of these things. Wrestling, boxing, duels, combat is all very entertaining. but no doubt to some one who lived over 2000 years ago seeing a bull fight a human must be a rare occasion. Life was harder back then. They were so worried about just surviving i doubt they cared weather the bull felt pain or not. But i think now we the world is getting to a point where we are civilized enough to look past beatings of animals for pleasure. but it certainly isn't something that will completely disappear any time soon. In many places in Asia they still have the mongoose vs. the snake or in the middle east the scorpion vs. the lizard. And further who knows? maybe 600 years from now eating animals will be considered barbaric and even disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faisul Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Alright, Vydrach. I guess I kind of got sidetracked by the whole gladiator argument thing. Yeah, the bull can't give consent because it can't comprehend, so, pitting it in a really despicably unfair match (not that it really has any bearing on what's fundamentally wrong with bullfighting anyway) where it is slowly and torturously killed for the enjoyment of some people, we can agree, is wrong. Whether or not how 'traditional' it is and how much that makes bullfighting acceptable is another matter entirely. Not to beat a dead horse even more dead but the whole 'consent to killing/be killed' justification for allowing murder is a bit weak as Arwin and Bernd were both obviously mentally disturbed. Both should've been in an institution, especially Bernd. Sometimes people can't be trusted to make decisions about their own lives. 'Deciding' to have your own penis cut off and eaten, then to have another kill you and consume your body over a period of ten months is not the sign of a person who should be outside of a padded cell, and Bernd's death is goddamn tragic and horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlow Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well, you have to take in consent that a majority of people right now will not agree with the "human vs. human" real gladiator fight, even if it the fighters agree with every term. So, human vs. human bloodfight? No. Human vs. animal w/ the animal dying? When put against the human vs. human, sure. I've also seen reports that say that supposedly, the bull's eaten afterwards, so, in a way, a bull's not only a "point" or a "prop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faisul Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Hopefully that's the case, but it's a very energy inefficient and cruel way of preparing an animal for slaughter, wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 The purpose of bullfighting is watching them kill the animal; yes, they eat it afterwards because hey why not, but no one goes to a bullfight thinking OH MAN I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE BURGERS THIS THING IS GONNA TURN INTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlow Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Course, I'm not justifying anything. I'm saying that, at least on some occasions, it's not just plain gore. Here's some stuff I've seen they said. Every part of them is eaten...mostly donated to the poor, but some are served in restaurants, or at least there are restaurants that claim they serve the bulls that were killed. Of course the meat and products are not wasted! The meat is sometimes given to the poor and you can eat it in many restaurants and buy it in specialist butchers. It does have a much stronger flavour than normal beef - more like ox. In fact, they do have a dish which is "oxtail", as in "oxtail soup". Depending on the bull "family" and fight conditions the meat costs more or less. The animals are bred just for bullfighting. Without the bullfight, they would probably be extinct, and many are left to graze on the best pastures until they die (unlike the majority of veal we see packed into the lorries along the motorways). They are definitely not given drugs of any kind. There are particularly rigorous medical checks and controls on all the animals (unlike all the poultry, pork and beef we so happily eat). The brave bull is a glorified animal - not just there in the ring because they need to kill something. Each "family" has its special traits which need to be taken into account when it's in the ring. They are particularly prized, worth a fortune, and are beautiful, powerful creatures. You need to experience Spain, understand their view on the world, beauty and art to appreciate the real passion behind the bullfight. There's no way you can be convinced that it's normal, or condem them if you haven't been immersed in Spanish culture for a long time. (By a Spaniard) Course, I do have my doubts when it comes o the New World fights, but it seems all's set up in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faisul Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well, if the above is an accurate representation of how bullfighting supplements the meat market I guess it's a little less offensive. Though I don't doubt you'd have to be pretty heavily immersed in Spanish culture in order to appreciate bullfighting as an art. The few bullfights I've seen (televised, of course - don't think I could stomach the real thing, they always cut the really nasty segments it seems) has always struck me as odd when this posturing, heavily costumed dude shows up in tights and proceeds to prance around while occasionally stabbing at a bull. When I was a kid, I always thought the objective of the match was to get the matador killed because he was a public annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Again, it's fine that they eat them, but I doubt the entire meat market there is entirely dependant on bulls killed like this. They can't possibly kill enough of them for it to have a substantial market impact. Unless you can quote me a statistic for this. Without the bullfight, they would probably be extinct, and many are left to graze on the best pastures until they die (unlike the majority of veal we see packed into the lorries along the motorways). Wait, what? Cows as a species would not be extinct without bullfighting. Maybe the particular breed of bull bred specifically to the purpose of defending itself from brutal, overglorified murder would disappear, but that's no big loss as it isn't a naturally occuring breed to begin with, and cows as a species will still go on. ... and are beautiful, powerful creatures. ..."so let's kill them!" You need to experience Spain, understand their view on the world, beauty and art to appreciate the real passion behind the bullfight. There's no way you can be convinced that it's normal, or condem them if you haven't been immersed in Spanish culture for a long time. (By a Spaniard) I don't need to "experience Spain" to know glorifying animal torture isn't good. Yes, there is cultural reason for it to exist, but saying "it's just the culture!" does not explain it away. And you're speaking as if all of Spain supports bullfighting to begin with (it doesn't). Anyways, you can't start a topic on bullfighting and then tell the naysayers "well you don't count because you're not Spanish", on an especially non-Spanish forum no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Not to beat a dead horse even more dead but the whole 'consent to killing/be killed' justification for allowing murder is a bit weak as Arwin and Bernd were both obviously mentally disturbed. Both should've been in an institution, especially Bernd. Sometimes people can't be trusted to make decisions about their own lives. 'Deciding' to have your own penis cut off and eaten, then to have another kill you and consume your body over a period of ten months is not the sign of a person who should be outside of a padded cell, and Bernd's death is goddamn tragic and horrible. Not to perpetuate it, but the discussion about whether or not that form of mental difference is a justifiable reason for one to be considered unqualified in making their own decisions is a discussion for another day. Well, you have to take in consent that a majority of people right now will not agree with the "human vs. human" real gladiator fight, even if it the fighters agree with every term. So, human vs. human bloodfight? No. Human vs. animal w/ the animal dying? When put against the human vs. human, sure. And note that I wasn't saying it should be legal or that I'm particularly interested in watching any of it (though I still kinda want to see a good halberd battle), but that I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest that it existed as long as consent was given by all those involved in it. Which is why I dislike bullfights as the bull can not give consent, and it is further made worse by the crippling of the bull before the actual fight even begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I get that bullfighting can be entertaining, and perhaps more than that too, to many people Harlow. Heck, I'm sure I'd also find it more exciting to watch too than most sport events... But no matter how deeply embedded it is in culture and tradition, they're still centered around the act of killing of a third party without its consent and in some of the cruelest ways possible. It's like if someone forced you to go into the ring in a 12-round boxing match against a heavy-weight champion, who would toy around with you for the first eleven, and then kill you in the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Elite Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well the Spanish might disagree with me, but it's all for the entertainment of the crowd. The savage ending of the bull's life. It hasn't got a clue what's going on, it doesn't want to fight, it's just dragged out to be carved by a swordsman. Not humane at all, and I've heard that the bull is usually weakened prior to the fight, so what chance does it have? I think it's a savage form of entertainment, though i wouldn't find it entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thu'um Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I have been hearing this has no economic impact, maybe not on the meat market, but think about this. What will the matador if bull fights are abolished, what kinda money is made in ticket sold in at these events? Food? Gambling? how about the bulls bought? So that could be a good little some of money that a few people make. I'm sure they arn't totally dependent upon bull fights, in an economy like i'm sure any money they're making they are savoring thanks Vy Edited October 17, 2011 by Ajc3000fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Any money they're making they... what? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faisul Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 here we go again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm honestly curious. It seems to be a focal point of his arguement. Also Ajc, I don't think Spain's economy is hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unoservix Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Spain's economy is very much hurting, but bullfighting is not the reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vy'drach Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Is it hurting? Hadn't heard anything on it. But doesn't really surprise me. With the exception of a few countries, the entire world's economy is hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Spain's economy is very much hurting, but bullfighting is not the reason why. The whole EU's economy is hurting right now. Germany is the only one that's keeping it afloat financially. Don't know about you guys, but I could sure could do without another global economical crisis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faisul Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sup fellow Norway buddy! We'll just do what we always do - daintily prance around our oil reserve and suppress giggles ladened with schadenfreude as the EU collapses and burns to our south. But yeah, Spain's economy has been in a rough patch for a long time. A majority of the EU's money funneled into Spain has gone into upholding the tourism industry there, which, while bringing in quite a bit of income, doesn't really support the country's infrastructure. Greece's banks are gonna fold soon, very probably, and so will a lot of the banks of other eurozone countries. I really don't want another economic crisis so soon after the last, but it seems pretty inevitable at this point. Anyway, a new economic crisis will probably leave people flocking to a whole lot more bread and circus in the future, which may, incidentally, mean more bullfights in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"User" Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Also Ajc, I don't think Spain's economy is hurting. Spain is one of the countries that are part of the PIIGS. Basically, countries that are the most messed up in Europe right now with regards to their sovereign debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlow Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 In a way, I feel that, if you ban bullfighting, it'd be like banning Carnival in Brazil or Baseball in the US. Sure, they all have their haters and/or people who hate to be associated with it just beacuse its nationality. Also, one can live without any of it? Sure, but it would still have a deep impact on the cultural value of the country. My say is, should be kept in it's mayority in Spain, and in case of international fights, it should be regulated by Spanish authorities most of the times. Also, look at this fact: "In Portugal, it is illegal to kill a bull in the arena, so it is removed and slaughtered in the pens as fighting bulls can only be used once." "Very rarely, if the public or the matador believe that the bull has fought extremely bravely, they may petition the president of the event to grant the bull a pardon (indulto) and if granted the bull's life is spared and it is allowed to leave the ring alive and return to the ranch where it came from. Then the bull becomes a stud bull for the rest of its life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiana Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Baseball doesn't involve torturing and killing animals for fun. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asper Sarnoff Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sup fellow Norway buddy! Heisann! Had to be a Norse, with all his polite and well-formed arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xortberg Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 In a way, I feel that, if you ban bullfighting, it'd be like banning Carnival in Brazil or Baseball in the US. Sure, they all have their haters and/or people who hate to be associated with it just beacuse its nationality. Also, one can live without any of it? Sure, but it would still have a deep impact on the cultural value of the country. Culture is great. Torturing animals for entertainment is not. I don't know how many times this point has been made, and yet you seem to still not get it. Also, look at this fact: "In Portugal, it is illegal to kill a bull in the arena, so it is removed and slaughtered in the pens as fighting bulls can only be used once." So they just torture it in front of thousands of spectators, and save the killing for afterwards. That just makes it so much more acceptable. "Very rarely, if the public or the matador believe that the bull has fought extremely bravely, they may petition the president of the event to grant the bull a pardon (indulto) and if granted the bull's life is spared and it is allowed to leave the ring alive and return to the ranch where it came from. Then the bull becomes a stud bull for the rest of its life." This quote has been brought up before, and it does nothing to change the fact that it's barbaric. We're taking animals, breeding them for the purpose of bloodsports, torturing them and killing them, and once they've been crippled they might get to live, if the people gathered to see it get tortured decide to give it a chance based on "fighting bravely" - which, I will remind you, is a human concept that the bull has no grasp over. It's fighting to survive, nothing more. So what gives us the right to toy with a life like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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